Fat acceptance in Project Eternity

[Hormalakh]

I'm afraid this thread will soon devolve into a workout thread with people throwing out all sorts of science literature to prove or disprove their notions. Before you do that, let me just say a few things.

 

L- Ricky Gervais calls them "people who are afflicted with obesity." I like that term.

XL- Science literature has evidence on both sides of this issue. If you think that your particular journal is the defining literature, you're probably wrong. If this problem was solved, we wouldn't still be arguing about it. There wouldn't be 50+ types of diets and exercise programs.

XXL- This isn't reddit.com/r/workout or boards.4chan.org/fit/ Please no "Oatz, squatz, don't be a beta." This is a gaming forum. Gaming.

[mstark]

Feel a heavy weight on your shoulders?

 

Do squats.

[Vin]

Selective acceptance is selective.

Yes, I'm very sure the misrepresentation or lack of any representation at all of "overweight" people in the media is very distressing. And yet how many albinos have you seen in a recent work of fiction that aren't villainous freaks? Since when were individuals with mental or personality disorders given fair treatment? I mean, they're more numerous than albinos, but that's all they have going for them.

You're cherry picking your issues here.

 

And I'm sure you'd accuse MLK, Jr. of the same, no?

 

... You're comparing yourself to Martin Luther King, Jr.?

You're preaching on a gaming forum and comparing yourself to Martin Luther King, Jr.?

That's... beautiful and powerful. You have no idea.

 

I'm not saying that the "plight of the overweight" isn't valid -- although I must admit to a bit of cynicism on the subject -- I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of other injustices in the modern media to care about. Fat people aren't the only individuals being treated poorly.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Vin

[mcmanusaur]

... You're comparing yourself to Martin Luther King, Jr.?

You're preaching on a gaming forum and comparing yourself to Martin Luther King, Jr.?

That's... beautiful and powerful. You have no idea.

 

I'm not saying that the "plight of the overweight" isn't valid -- although I must admit to a bit of cynicism on the subject -- I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of other injustices in the modern media to care about. Fat people aren't the only individuals being treated poorly.

 

Well, I certainly wouldn't go so far as to draw parallels between my humble accolades as a preacher and those of the King, but I suppose I must consider myself flattered that you feel such a comparison has any merit. The way I see it, these days activism has to aggressively modernize to stay relevant, and that often means utilizing the endlessly vast resources of the Internet. While I do agree that there are other issues worthy of mention, I believe that giving each specific attention is in the interest of ultimate progress.

Edited November 3, 2012 by mcmanusaur

[PsychoBlonde]

XL- Science literature has evidence on both sides of this issue. If you think that your particular journal is the defining literature, you're probably wrong. If this problem was solved, we wouldn't still be arguing about it. There wouldn't be 50+ types of diets and exercise programs.

 

This is actually inaccurate. The evidence is all on the low-carb side. The studies are all on the low-fat side, studies which produce results like "on a diet of 1200 calories per day for 2 months, an average weight loss of 1.3 pounds was realized". No, that's not a joke. Heck, you know what Weight Watchers considers to be "success"? Losing like 5% of your desired weight and keeping it off for six months.

 

Whereas, when you talk to people who do low-carb diets, you hear endless stories of "I lost 25 lbs the first month with no hunger" (which is not unusual--weight loss slows dramatically after that) or "I'm off my diabetes medication". If you talk to doctors who used to prescribe low-fat and now prescribe low-carb, you here testimony like "I now actually expect people to be able to improve their health" instead of "I'm resigned to prescribing more and more medication as their health spirals downward".

 

Now, the fact that low-carb is a better diet does NOT mean that there aren't people who haven't lost a significant amount of weight or improved their health via low-fat diets or other means. These people always exist, and if they can benefit, good for them. The thing about low-carbing is it works even for people who CAN'T lose weight any other way. I have met a few, very few people who didn't have at least some weight-loss success (meaning, 20+ lbs, not 2 or 3) by low carbing (and some who later regained some of the weight they lost), but even so they usually realize other health improvements. Some people do have metabolic problems that even the most severe carbohydrate restriction can't resolve--they're going to get stuck with 20, 30, 40 lbs that they can't get rid of. I expect to be one of these people, in fact--when you've got 250+ lbs to lose it's unrealistic to expect all of it to come off, although some people do manage.

 

Gary Taubes is working with the Nutrition Science Initiative in order to get proper studies done in order to better establish the actual causal relationships that drive fat accumulation. One of the big problems with low-carbing is that there's little authoritative advice, so if you're going to do it, you pretty much have to perform a lengthy N=1 experiment on yourself. I do expect, however, in the next 10 years as these studies complete, we'll have a much more in-depth and accurate picture of what additional factors aside from the general glucose metabolism system can drive and interfere with metabolism, and even the people who experience little gain from low-carb will have good alternatives.

 

But that's how it stands--low fat/exercise only works for a tiny proportion of the population, and usually only if they undergo extreme deprivation. Low carb works for a HUGE proportion of the population with no deprivation, and with a tiny proportion leftover who clearly have something else nobody yet understands going on. The fact that there are 1000 low fat diet books and 2 or 3 low-carb ones doesn't mean that they're all equally valid.

[Nonek]

Yo mamma so fat light can't escape her gravitational well, ah yeah.

[Darth Trethon]

^^^Ugh.....you just had to open that can of worms didn't you Hormlakh?

 

Now you get all the finger pointing and "fact" acclamations because some would be expert or another or some institution made some claim or another. The world is full of know-it-alls just waiting to tell you all about it. It's all like talking logic to priests....it'll get you nowhere.

[Hormalakh]

^^^Ugh.....you just had to open that can of worms didn't you Hormlakh?

 

Now you get all the finger pointing and "fact" acclamations because some would be expert or another or some institution made some claim or another. The world is full of know-it-alls just waiting to tell you all about it. It's all like talking logic to priests....it'll get you nowhere.

 

I tried to stop it before it started. I failed...

Edited November 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[mstark]

I tried to stop it before it started. I failed...

Shame on you.

 

Go eat a tub of ice cream and cry.

[Hormalakh]

I tried to stop it before it started. I failed...

Shame on you.

 

Go eat a tub of ice cream and cry.

 

 

Edit: sometimes I find things on the internet that I never knew existed. And they make me happy. http://cryingwhileeating.com/

Edited November 3, 2012 by Hormalakh

[mstark]

Edit: sometimes I find things on the internet that I never knew existed. And they make me happy. http://cryingwhileeating.com/

This. This is why I love the internet.

 

Oh, and because of this thread, too. Of course.

[Rasmudd]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/stunkard.obesity.stigma.pdf

 

Gluttony is a sin. Honestly fat acceptance is a more modern thing and it would be very weird if people got fat everywhere considering the diets available. Perhpas theyre is some really addicting magic candy or something or curse but beyond that I dunno man. Don't play with sin.

[Vin]

Well, I certainly wouldn't go so far as to draw parallels between my humble accolades as a preacher and those of the King, but I suppose I must consider myself flattered that you feel such a comparison has any merit. The way I see it, these days activism has to aggressively modernize to stay relevant, and that often means utilizing the endlessly vast resources of the Internet. While I do agree that there are other issues worthy of mention, I believe that giving each specific attention is in the interest of ultimate progress.

 

You're dedicated, I'll give you that -- and a cookie, if I had one. But I ate them all.

And that's okay because I know you won't judge me for it.

[GhostofAnakin]

I could have sworn I was posting on the Project Eternity forums, not the Sims forum.

[Hormalakh]

http://www.feminineb...sity.stigma.pdf

 

Gluttony is a sin. Honestly fat acceptance is a more modern thing and it would be very weird if people got fat everywhere considering the diets available. Perhpas theyre is some really addicting magic candy or something or curse but beyond that I dunno man. Don't play with sin.

 

Wonder if people in the PE universe think fat people have multiple souls in them and that's why they're stigmatized...

[mstark]

Wonder if people in the PE universe think fat people have multiple souls in them and that's why they're stigmatized...

Because what other explanation could there be for obesity, than being cursed with more than one soul?

 

It's clearly not a lifestyle choice.

Edited November 3, 2012 by mstark

[Hormalakh]

Wonder if people in the PE universe think fat people have multiple souls in them and that's why they're stigmatized...

Because what other explanation could there be for obesity, than being cursed with more than one soul?

 

It's clearly not a lifestyle choice.

 

Well I was basing this observation on Rasmudd's excellent post and the article linked. http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/stunkard.obesity.stigma.pdf

 

If there is a stigmatization in the PE universe amongst some people, perhaps they would have a reasoning for it. From what I understand, sin in the PE universe might be based around the idea of souls and gods. So, what better reasoning for the uneducated and uninitiated than to blame these metaphysical realities? It's similar to how humans here do the same with floods, hurricanes, etc. It's always God punishing the unbelievers until it happens to you.

[John Lemon]

You know, if you wanted to pull numbers from the internet, you could at least cite the source on the goddamn thing. Like how everyone who uses sources do it.

 

/end uni student rant.

[NOK222]

In case I didn't make it clear.

 

GO DO CARDIO

 

Just a note--in a recent research study, the researchers had a large group of overweight women between the ages of 40 and 60 "do cardio" (as in, an hour a day, 5 days a week) for a YEAR. Average weight loss: 4 lbs. Yeah. That's HUGE. /sarcasm

 

"Doing cardio" is not going to make you thinner. It only works for people who are genetically predisposed to burn off excess calories via exercise. For people who are predisposed to turn calories into fat it will simply make you ravenous and exhausted. The predisposition to pack on weight is SO STRONG that obese mice (who share this same genetic predisposition) will *starve to death* with their fat tissue still untouched, having cannibalized all of their muscle and organs first.

 

If you are fat, the problem isn't that you eat too much or exercise too little. The problem is that your body is keyed to turn calories into fat. Losing weight means doing something that causes your body to consume fat instead of storing it. That doesn't make it necessarily any easier--every fat individual has a slightly different metabolic and genetic makeup, so you have to find what works for you through a process of experimentation, trial and error. In general the necessary first step is to eliminate most carbohydrates from the diet, because carbohydrates trigger your body to produce the fat-storing hormone insulin in quantity. However, reducing your insulin levels via a low carbohydrate diet, while a positive step, is not always sufficient for everyone. Some people must go so far as to enter what's known as "nutritional ketosis", taking in under 50g (and sometimes as extreme as under 20g) of carbohydrates per day so that the muscles and brain primarily fuel themselves from ketones which are metabolized from fat by the liver.

 

Wheat elimination seems to play an important role for many people. Modern wheat is not the same as the ancient Einkorn variety grown in Biblical times--the modern crop contains insanely high levels of many chemicals apart from and above the gluten that so damages full celiacs. The wheat we eat now actually acts as an appetite-stimulating opiate while spiking blood glucose levels (and thus spiking insulin production and fat storage) worse than pure sugar. Other negative aspects of wheat involve destruction of the digestive tract, both allowing harmful toxins to enter the bloodstream AND preventing the digestion and uptake of vital nutrients. This causes many people to experience problems as diverse as arthritis, acne, autoimmune diseases, chronic gas, diarrhea and constipation, mental "fog", and even the onset or worsening of schizophrenia in particularly sensitive individuals. It is a perfect storm of body-destroying anti-nutrition. And most people consider it the ultimate diet staple.

 

But, by all means, continue dishing out your worthless advice backed up by no science whatsoever. I'm sure every fat person dreams of losing 4 whole pounds after a year of terrible effort and grinding exhaustion.

 

Or, if you're interested in losing weight in a way that actually works with your body chemistry instead of attempting to pretend that you have a skinny person's metabolism, you could try eliminating wheat and drastically reducing your carbohydrate intake. This has the added benefit that it can result in reduction or even elimination of acne, arthritis, gastrointestinal upsets, acid reflux, nutritional deficiencies, leg edema and neuropathy, water retention, diabetes, mental "fog" or other symptoms of mental illness including depression, anxiety, and even schizophrenia. And that's only the smallest part of the list.

 

I've done all of that over the past year and a half. To date, I have eliminated the following medical problems: joint pain, crippling leg edema and water retention, chronic constipation, nutritional deficiencies, sleep problems, chronic tiredness, depression, and anxiety. Oh, and I've lost 100 lbs. Still got a goodly ways to go, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now. Don't take my word for it, though, look online and there are plenty of resources about low carbohydrate diets and wheat elimination and how to tune them to your particular metabolic needs.

 

And, as far as "fat-ism" in the game goes--I don't mind jokes about fat people as long as they aren't mean-spirited and clearly revealing a total lack of basic comprehension. Being fat isn't, in itself, bad for you, it's a symptom of an underlying metabolic condition. I'd appreciate the opportunity to play characters of varying sizes and builds even though they're going to be TINY--this, at least, is a cosmetic difference you'll be able to SEE. I like what they did in SW:TOR, my housemate currently has a pudgy Jedi character he named F'Albert, and we both just find this hilarious. Yes, our taste in humor is a little bizarre--he's also made a sun elf earth-wizard character in another game that was based (in looks and personality) on Fat Bastard from Austin Powers. I liked the body slider in NwN2, but it only made you wider so you looked like a normal person instead of the (to me) weirdly attenuated super-model build you get in most games. I have yet to meet someone that bony who displays serious athleticism or muscle tone. All the strong people I know (and I know quite a few since I got involved in this low carb and strength training business) have some meat on them. It's HAWT.

 

I was posting on a troll thread, so obviously I didn't care. Exercise won't do much without a proper diet, duh. I also wonder what kind of "cardio" these women were doing.

 

But, by all means, continue dishing out your worthless advice backed up by no science whatsoever. I'm sure every fat person dreams of losing 4 whole pounds after a year of terrible effort and grinding exhaustion.

 

Calm down, no one is attacking you personally. You're not an oppressed minority or a marginalized group. It's cool that you lost weight, but in a medieval setting you wouldn't be "fat" (not big boned, not heavy but out of shape no exercise fat) in the fist place, because of the non-sedentary lifestyle, unless you're an elite snob. I've met husky in shape people, I've met husky out of shape people, I've met skinny dudes with a pot belly, list goes on.

 

I guess I should have said "out of shape", not that I cared about offending, because once again no one here is in a plight, you're not a homosexual or a minority. You're fat. Go make a change. Jesus

 

http://www.inquisitr...ike-his-avatar/ something people should emulate.

Edited November 3, 2012 by NKKKK

[GhostofAnakin]

Next item on the agenda: Should Project Eternity deal with teenage bullying?

[NOK222]

Next item on the agenda: Should Project Eternity deal with teenage bullying?

 

Oh no, most likely nobody here was cool during school, so it would open up some buried memories.

[Sacred_Path]

I beg to differ, I wasn't cool before school either.

[Marceror]

I actually was pretty cool. I became a nerdy computer geek after high school.

[Darkpriest]

Seriously, literature contains more than a few examples of great characters that are fat.

 

One of most renown should be Friar Tuck from the Robin Hood... I would seriously not mind seeing a fatty cleric, cipher, whatever...

[Thangorodrim]

As Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" ... I don't think we need to write societal issues into every single game we play ... in a medieval setting like PE, questions of slavery, race, age, religion, superstition, and gender are all valid for that environment as they were inherent to those times ... the question of weight didn't arise until modern times when our eating habits and activity levels lost their alignment (the vast availability of simple foods hasn't helped either)

 

People in medieval times ate little, not due to a desire to do so, but do to an inability to overindulge in food due to costs and availability ... medieval folks also lived very active lifestyles (not because they ran to the gym but because they worked from sunup to sundown ) which tended to keep them thin (sometimes dangerously so) ... our characters will likely be tramping all over God's creation (make that Obsidian's creation ) so I would expect they will be pretty fit and thin, unless our game is confined to an extremely small area

 

Obesity and how people with this condition are treated are serious problems in OUR world, but I don't think they need to become an element of the PE fantasy world ... as an aside I do have sympathy for folks with weight issues (especially since I just finished a weight loss regimen of 165 lbs myself ... it was like loosing an entire person ) but I don't think PE needs to address that one way or another ... they could have some corpulent NPCs in the wealthy classes but if I see a corpulent beggar there better be a quest with one serious backstory for that person