Update #29: Fulfillment and the Pros and Cons of Nostalgia and Realism

[nikolokolus]

I think it might be cool to have the barbarian's nekkid berzerk rage mimic what it was all about in them olden days- it needs to inspire awe and fear. If the barbarian chooses to armor himself, his berzerk rage will no longer inspire the same awe and will fatigue him faster. Or some such mechanical reason to choose to eschew armor.

 

Having visited both rainforests and deserts, I *can* think of a few cultural reasons why barbarians might not want to wear too much body armour as a rule of thumb. Besides, it does indeed look more impressive when giving in to rage and you start tearing your flimsy deer skin toga apart Hulk Hogan style

 

Besides, vikings were sort of archetypical barbarians. Wouldn't want too much armour pulling you down if you are a sea faring people.

 

Personally the last thing I want is to have to level up armor.

 

I didn't really meant anything like that, I wouldn't want to level armor either (unless it was intelligent armor ).

 

A bit like the stealth suit in Old World Blues

 

Honestly the thing that sprang to mind was the Pictish warriors who would strip naked, paint themselves in blue body paint and charge into battle. Northern Scotland aint exactly a sunny, tropical clime.

[Gorth]

Honestly the thing that sprang to mind was the Pictish warriors who would strip naked, paint themselves in blue body paint and charge into battle. Northern Scotland aint exactly a sunny, tropical clime.

Enough booze and adrenaline means bodypaint is all the protection (you think) you need

[ZarathustraDK]

2. We want any character to be able to wear any piece of armor, because you would be able to do that IRL. How you perform in that armor depends on other stuff, but putting it on should be possible, even with the lowest of low INT.

 

 

Hmm, "We"?

May I ask what exactly is the point of having that possibility? Am I correct to think that what you are saying is "We" don't want any restrictions whatsoever, not even INT ones... *but* minimum STR would still be required to put on a specific piece of armour? Well, isn't that a restriction? 99yo wizard with high strength (brawny wizards, sexy) wearing full plate? Why would "we" want that? Technically speaking one can eat soup with a fork, that's certainly an option, but is it really useful? Another natural step after lifting all restrictions on armour/weapon use would be to make one - universal - character class, some kind of multiclass fighter/mage/assassin, who would be able to use any weapon or piece of armour.

 

What I meant, basically, was that requirements for wearing armor should be attainable for every class, even if it makes no sense to wear a given armor for a particular class. Reason for this being that it's possible IRL if a person has the strength to put it on. Having a wizardrobe go "Oh, you're a warrior/fighter so you're not able to wear me" is stupid IMHO.

[cuteLittleRabbit]

I just realized I posted this in the "wrong" thread

 

Anyone care to give their thoughts on this system?

 

 

Some terminology:

-------------------------

CP = Combat proficiency:

How well a character can react (attack/defend) in combat.

 

ECP = Effective combat proficiency:

How much of the proficiency a character can use effectively in combat, after modifiers are applied

 

Dodge:

How easily a character can avoid an attack

 

DR = Damage resistance:

How easily a character can mitigate damage; split this up in different damage types (slash/pierce/blunt/fire/cold/...)

 

The armor system:

-------------------------

ECP determines the speed at which a character can attack/defend in combat.

Dodge chance is directly influenced by this, as is the number of times a character can attack per round.

 

Armor increases DR. Some suggestions:

* Leather: DR 15% Blunt/15% Slash/15% Pierce/10% Cold

* Full Plate: DR 20% Blunt/50% Slash/50% Pierce/15% Fire

* Chain shirt (with light leather undershirt): DR 15% Blunt/40% Slash/15% Pierce

...

 

Armor also *decreases* ECP. Some suggestions:

* Leather: -10 ECP

* Full Plate: -80 ECP

* Chain Shirt: -30 ECP

...

 

The weapon type used also influences ECP (some weapons are more difficult to handle than others):

* Dagger: -5 ECP (0 overlap with armor)

* Two-handed axe: -50 ECP (30 overlap with armor)

* Rapier: -20 ECP (15 overlap with armor)

...

What do I mean with overlap: the penalties are not always cumulative. Some examples:

* Leather (-10 ECP) and a Dagger (-5 ECP;0 overlap) = MINIMUM(-10+0;0) + (-5) = -15 ECP

=> No overlap means full penalty applied

* Full Plate (-80 ECP) and Two-handed axe (-50;30 overlap) = MINIMUM(-80+30;0) + (-50) = -100

=>30 of the -80 penalty is not applied, because you're using a two-handed axe

* Full Plate (-80 ECP) and Rapier (-20;15 overlap) = MINIMUM(-80+15;0) + (-20) = -95

=>15 of the -80 penalty is not applied, because you're using a rapier

* Chain Shirt (-30 ECP) and Two-handed axe (-50;30 overlap) = MINIMUM(-30+30;0) + (-50) = -50

=>30 of the -30 penalty is not applied, because you're using a two-handed axe

* Chain Shirt (-30 ECP) and Rapier (-20;15 overlap) = MINIMUM(-30+15;0) + (-20) = -35

=>15 of the -30 penalty is not applied, because you're using a rapier

 

==> It makes sense to go as lightly armored as possible to maximize your damage potential.

==> It also makes sense to go as heavily armored as possible to minimize incoming damage.

 

 

Some additional remarks:

------------------------------------

 

1. The magic system should also be influenced by ECP. Possible modifiers:

* The speed at which magic is cast could be influenced: slower casting means less casts per combat round, or longer castng time.

* The effectiveness of the magic is another option: duration/damage/... could be made x% less effective

I prefer the first option though: easier to balance.

 

2. Choice of character class should have a big effect on Combat Proficiency. Some examples:

* Warriors start at CP 150 and get +10 CP per level up

* Mages start at CP 100 and get +5 per level up

* Rogues start at CP 130 and get +5 CP per level up

* Rangers start at CP 130 and get +10 CP per level up

...

 

3. At certain tresholds, the character receives an additional attack/round. In my examples, I'd suggest per 100 ECP.

 

This means more attacks for lightly armored characters using light weapons.

It also means more attacks for warriors than for mages, eventually, after some levels.

 

4. Ranged combat is also a valid alternative in this case:

* Heavy armor+ranged attacks, is quite possible/efficient for a "first shoot then switch to melee" action (tank pulling)

* Heavy armor+ranged is less efficient than light armor+ranged, damage wise, and defense wise (kiting)

* While each shot might do less damage, you have more shots to shoot per round

 

5. Some suggestions for "perks" related to this system:

* A perk that reduces armor penalties to CP, which requires a certain amount of Strength

* A perk that increases CP for a certain type of weapon, which could be class-related

* A perk that adds a bonus to CP based on the character's Agility or Strength, class-related

* A perk for mages wanting to use armor, that reduces the effects of CP penalties, but only when applied to spellcasting

...

 

6. Armor enhancement (higher quality & enchanting):

This can be done in many different ways, not necessarily limited to "dry" +1, +2, ... bonuses:

* More DR for some damage types

* Less CP penalty

* Less CP penalty for a specific set of actions (magic, ranged combat, ...)

* Increased Dodge value, but without the CP penalty reduction (footwork enhancement)

* Increased stats

* Critical hit chance reduction

...

[mars84]

I am only up to page 4 of reading what everyone else has posted so I do apologize if I'm repeating something here:

 

I think to a large extent that your choice of armor system will depend on the other design choices that you make for the game. Here is an example from one idea that you posted during the Kickstarter:

 

You said that you would have a stamina/health system where one is temporary and the other is more permanent and fatal. What this suggests is that taking a direct him from a weapon is going to be a very bad thing, since I don't see being stabbed through with a sword as only hurting your stamina. To this end, I think the first system that should be considered is not the armor system that handles the consequences of being hit, but rather the dodge/parry/block system that determines whether you are hit in the first place:

 

Taking the example of being stabbed with a sword, the options would therefore be to:

A. Parry it with a weapon

B. Block it with a shield

C. Dodge the attack completely

D. Take the hit

 

I don't see any character wearing non-metallic armor being able to survive if they take option D up there. If you have a more realistic system where damage cannot be magically healed, lightly armored characters are going to have to focus on not getting hit and the fact that they are wearing light armor should help them to do so, otherwise you will end up with everyone having to wear heavy armor of some sort.

 

I think this discussion should therefore also focus on shields, dodging and parrying and not just the properties of the armor that a person is wearing. I have many more ideas on this topic and many that do focus on the body armor itself, but I'd also like to keep it short and hear everyone else's thoughts on how the combat system can deal with the type of problem I outlined above without the ability to magically heal damage.

[Dianjabla]

We could (as an example) structure some of Project Eternity's armor advancement like this.

 

Tier 1

Doublet

Hide Armor

Scale Vest

 

Tier 2

Gambeson (from Doublet)

Leather Cuirass (from Hide Armor)

Scale Armor (from Scale Vest)

Mail Shirt

 

Tier 3

Armored Jack (from Gambeson)

Leather Armor (from Leather Cuirass)

Lamellar Armor (from Scale Armor)

Mail Armor (from Mail Shirt)

Half-Plate

 

This could probably accomplish our stated goals (we can assign them whatever stats we'd like, after all), but it does raise some questions for us:

• Should something like hide armor be supplanted/made obsolete by leather as an "improved version" or does that effectively kill the visual concept of the rough-hewn rawhide-wearing ranger or barbarian?
  
• If armor types like hide (or scale, or mail) should remain viable on their own, how should that "upgrade" be expressed to the player? Functional descriptors like "fine scale", "superior hide", etc.? Cultural or material descriptors like "Vailian doublet", "iron feather scale"? Olde tyme numerical descriptors like "scale armor +1", "half-plate +2"?
  
• Is it okay for an upgrade from a visual type of armor to maintain its relative position to other armor types even if "realistically" that upgraded armor is now probably superior in protection to other armor types? E.g. an armored jack or brigandine armor is probably more protective than even nice suit of leather armor... but mechanically, we're presenting it as an upgrade of a padded (doublet) armor type.
  

 

Why all of them at once and none?

Maybe, if you're doing away with a pen & paper based system and are going to a real time system, you can do away with the relative simplicity of the 2nd Ed Rule set where armour values move up & down by units of one, end of story.

Maybe, if you want a little realism, heavier armour makes you move slower, but absorbs and/or deflects more punishment depending on the type.

Maybe armour doesn't need a simple progression of one variable determining just how good it is.

Maybe if you had to account for things like deflection value (ie will they hit at all - AC in D&D parlance), damage absorbtion/reduction, maximum dexterity bonus (which would affect more than just combat and might involve bulk as much as weight), speed reduction (strength & dexterity would play on this as well) and well, minimum strength to wear.

Maybe you don't need to have certain bands or tiers of armour that are all the same. Maybe one set of leather armour has slightly different stats than the next style. You're not limited to a range of 10 to -10.

 

As an example of unenchanted armour, chainmail, although it possibly has better deflection & damage absorbtion than a leather jerkin, would also reduce your speed, take a higher strength to wear and reduce your agility on the field. But if you're not all that agile to start with and you don't plan on doing antything more fancy than hitting things, it's not so bad. That said, a suit of properly fitted plate is better in almost every respect than the chainmail, bar the price, and thus the availability.

 

So how about different materials and or enchantments? Leather made of certain monsters may be better than chainmail or even plate. Chain made from a certain alloy might make it lighter, enchantments or some such may make a suit of chain better in many ways than plate.

 

Please, by all means, don't leave it as just chain +1. Give it a variety of effects to varying degrees. Smaller deflection or damage absorbtion bonuses combined with weight reduction and decrease in required strength and increase in max dex bonus could make it a more viable build. Scale mail from a certain critter might change all these, but give a bonus to some kind(s) of resistance as well, making it far better than just those values.

 

And don't forget shields.

 

Then again, maybe all that would make it too complicated, and it runs the risk of becomming the constant gear swapping to find the best mix & match of a diabloesque title.

 

TL;DR - Maybe you can abandon the familiarity of the notion of 2nd Ed armour progression in the same way as having the game designed from scratch to be RTwP abandons well, D&D. Maybe a larger range of armour with each type having a range of pros & cons is something we can cope with. Maybe never looking back on normal AC8 leather armour after you got something better is ok after all.

[BASTEr]

My 2 cents about armour is something that perhaps not many people have considered: have the material that the armour was constructed from have other effects. What I mean is, metals are relatively good conductors. So depending upon the metal even, the player wearing said armour is effected differently by lightning based spells/abilities. Perhaps a hide is more flammable than a suit of chain, etc. This could surely add some realism; I like this idea 'cause I just hate the trend to so completely balance everything in games to the point of boredom. If I'm enjoying sword blows bouncing off my full plate, it would be cool suffer a bit more at the hands of a tempest wielding mage (or whatever). Even if such an idea was considered, it can be approached in a creative way - it doesn't have to be a case of "full metal armour = 30% more damage from sources of lightning damage." I can't think up a terribly clever way at the moment, but hey, just some ideas.

[WildcatMik]

I'm surprised no one had any thoughts to share (or holes to point out) on the idea I presented earlier in the thread.

 

I'll repost it in case someone has some input but missed it:

 

Well... this thread is advancing rapidly and I have no idea if this has been mentioned already, but I'd like to copy-paste something I saw in the comments for this update:

 

It would be great to see a system that rewarded the player for sticking to specific equipment. Over time, as the equipment is used, it could accrue stat bonuses. Nothing crazy, just enough to incentive the use of specific equipment suited to the players chosen role. Having well used equipment with a few bonuses might just make the choice between super protective heavy armor and something that is more suited to your role a bit tougher.

 

I like this idea. The more a character wears a piece of armour the more he or she will get used to it, and this "learning" over time can be simulated by giving the armour some bonuses over time (but only for that character). It could even get certain special bonuses based on something the character experienced with that armour, e.g. (I don't know) fighting an ogre for the first time and getting a strong knock on the head could give the helmet worn at that moment a certain special bonus.

 

The only problem with this is that it is very difficult to balance, because if it's overdone then the player will never be motivated to change the character's armour.

 

Is this a problem? If we want an enchantment/crafting system (which I do) then I think it should be feasible to end the game with the armour you started with - albeit heavily modified/enchanted. I like the idea that good armour is difficult to come by, and almost prohibitively expensive to buy new. I think that by mid game you should have the armour that you end in. I really like the person specific bonuses due to experience wearing armour. It becomes important to decide what you are going to wear as a character but allows freedom early in the game to adjust you preferences to a playing style.

 

Don't forget party mechanics here, while your own PC may be crap at fighting trolls in the open and good at picking off mages from a distance you should compensate for that by having a troll bashing magic susceptible PC in your party.

 

I think that historically this holds true. Armour was generally inherited and repaired and updated not created from scratch. Weapons on the other hand were more easy to come by... different discussion there though.

[brownypoints]

It seems the armour discussion is in good hands in this thread.

as for

"Should something like hide armor be supplanted/made obsolete by leather as an "improved version" or does that effectively kill the visual concept of the rough-hewn rawhide-wearing ranger or barbarian? "

 

​cant some concept of an inherent racial/cultural bonus be applied to solve this ? for example sagani has a boreal dwarf racial preference for rough hewn rawhide armour? she grew up it, was presented her first real set by her father at 12, spent her formative years training with weapons in that very set of armour, to go and put her in a "civilized" leather armour she might get better armour rating but surely she would be (at first anyway) uncomfortable and correspondingly loose her armour related racial bonus

[Moraiel]

First let me say that I heavily favor "real" looking armor, if I see armor with electricity arcing between gigantic spikes on the shoulders a part of me will die inside.

 

That said, "real" armor doesn't really come in Tiers. Yes there is leather/chain/plate etc. but the difference between a decent set of leathers and the best ever made would barely qualify as a second tier (let alone a third or fourth) though this would make for useful variation among Tier 1 armor. Fortunately in this world there's magic!

 

Every class can tap into their Soul Power to one extent or another, my suggestion would be that higher tier armors have Enhancements that are "powered" by their users. Like any good system though there need to be limits, the first limit would be the power of the source, a level 1 adventurer could not power an epic Enhancement and an epic adventurer would be unable to force any more power into a basic Enhancement (I think overpower/burnout effects could be cool too). This has a number of interesting possibilities, first if the player put on the armor anyway, there could be no Enhancement at all, and it would behave as basic armor. Second, you get some of the Enhancement effect but not all, this would allow lucky players that aquired high-level armor to wear it without breaking the challenge of playing the game. Third, they get the full enhancement effect but the character would be drained, becoming unable to use some or all of his other abilities, possibly even being detrimental to his base stats. This limit could also explain the rarity of epic items. Since only the most powerful would be able to use them there would also be little demand, even a Master Craftsman's time would be better served making lower power items since he would actually be able to sell them. Epic items would only be made on a specific comission, or for pride of workmanship in their spare time.

 

The second limit I would propose would be one on the what the magic can do, regardless of power. Enhancement magic would be just that, it would enhance what is already there. Steel is strong, durable, an edge could be described as sharp, but it is not light, fast, agile. One could put a "light" Enhacement on steel, but the effect would either be negligible or the power required would be ridiculous. Leather on the other hand is certainly durable (though not as much as steel) but it is light, and flexible, the animal it came from could be swift and agile and so it would take those Enhancements (Though it could never take a strength/durability Enhancement as well as steel).

 

WIzard robes would be the most difficult to explain from a lore standpoint, the best I can do at the moment would be that they don't take enhancements themselves but enhance other nearby things and are tied to metaphysical similarities (red robes enhance fire magic, feathers air magic, bones death) rather than physical ones. This is the idea I'm least confident about but I'm sure someone can think of something.

 

The best part of this is that it allows you to keep a character concept throughout the game. You picked leather armor because it is light, flexible yet decent protection, and those are the very qualities that the magic enhances, even the ragged hide armor of the barbarian could have been enhanced by an ancient and wise shaman of your tribe and the effect would be just as strong. It also provides interesting crafting options, since the 8 Int Barbarian would only really have to learn variations on "Strong, Stronger, Strongest!!" to stamp all over his gear in the blood of his massacred foes, the Wizard would have to master a dozen subtle shades of the hundred or more Enhancements to be painstakingly embroidered in gold thread on his Robes of Arcane Magnificence.

 

Hopefully some or all of this sounds good to someone at Obsidian, though I'm confident whatever they decide to do will be great. As long as it looks like armor

 

Seriously though, no glowing armor.

 

I'm serious.

[Cantousent]

If my mage is forced to wear silly assed looking robes because they're the only decent wizard gear in the game, I'm going to rampage through the street like Godzilla on a sugar high. Project Eternity is supposed to be great for nostalgia, but if we're dropping some of the stale things from the past, how about having decent options for spell hurlers who would favor a more fashionable appearance. I'd rather wear a wizard kilt. I swear, I'd rather have my mage wear a top hat and tuxedo while swingin' a cane sword than be forced to wear goofy looking robes. Both would look ridiculous, but at least I could attend a state dinner in the tux.

 

Okay okay. It's out of my system. Must. calm. down.

 

All that said, I can't say to folks, "oh, don't worry that you don't want elves and dwarves in the game. It's what they do with the character that matter, not the race..." and then throw a fit over mage robes. It's just... you're going to have races other than elves and dwarves for folks who want them. Throw those of us who hate mage robes a bone and also give us things ranging from trousers, shirts, and boots to a nice set of plate. Sure, it might not be as splendid as the wizard robes of maliforous magedom, but at least I can go into the grocery without everyone staring.

[Moraiel]

Seconded.

 

I guess I should change "wizard robes" to "cloth armor". Too lazy though.

[Sabotin]

I believe sorting armors into categories would still be a good idea, for the sake of simplicity and understandable mechanics, with the standard alterations in damage resistance and decrease in mobility and whatnot. A simple and robust base to build upon.

 

After that different armors can be fleshed out, with various bonuses and penalties to various stats. Without really tiers, but with different crafting techniques, materials and magical enchantments to offer upgrades (mechanics wise: 3 hidden "upgrade slots", some permanently in use, a la KOTOR2?). This would also allow for different "regional" armor types - blacksmiths in this and this area prefer to use this and this material and this and this technique - here's your Vailian plate. Players specialized in crafting could learn stuff from the various regions they visit and craft themselves a specialized item (limited by what can be used together of course), that is otherwise not available (or rare or expensive...).

 

I do believe that some armors could become inferior in time, base stats wise. But the additional effects could keep some of them feasible to use. That hide armor for example: perhaps it offers to rangers an increased hiding ability outdoors or resistance to cold (deceive search dogs that rogues cannot?); maybe barbarians would want to use it to further add to their scary appearance, making untrained enemies' morale drop faster.

 

What I don't want to see is generically better armor. You know, merchants at the "start" selling the cheapest stuff, merchants at the "end" selling +5 gear, just because. Another thing thing I would like to see avoided is to steep of a power curve. Taking D&D as an example once more: at the higher levels in 3e the various bonuses often far exceeded in importance the base statistics of armors and weapons.

 

(reading more in this thread I'm realizing I'm just echoing other peoples' thoughts )

Edited November 1, 2012 by Sabotin

[dahools]

Hi guys,

 

I have had some thoughts on armor and how a system could work in order to keep materials relevant at all levels throughout the game.

 

Have a system where there is a stitch/underlay/frame (base structure of some sort) which upgrades with each tier and then use materials to finish off the final piece.

 

Some examples would be, (obviously substituting in materials suited for Project Eternity's world)

 

Tier 1 Cotton stitch - has a base armor of x amount

Tier 2 Wool stich - has a base armor higher than tier 1

Tier 3 . . . . . - etc. .

. . . . . . . . . . - . . . .

 

Then have extra values or attributes for specific materials to finish off the final piece i.e

 

silk is light (can hold more weight or move faster),

padded leather is warm (small bonus to cold resistance)

hardened leather is rigid (improved def against piercing)

etc . . . .

 

 

or another example using armor types as the variable (i think this would be more difficult to implement )

 

Tier 1 - Bronze frame

Tier 2 - Iron frame

Tier 3 - Steel frame

Tier 4 - Obsidian frame

 

Chain type, plate type, full plate, granting different bonuses or features on top of the base score, so a user can use chain mail through tier's 1 - 4 if they so choose to.

 

Either system is workable if the effort was put in to work out how many bases types you would need and what classes could use what without penalty etc, then how many materials/styles you want and what little bonuses they would give on top of the base value. This would create quite a lot of variety and on top the ability to enchant or magically improve everything in some way afterwards, would probably leave no two players with the same setup at all.

 

Just a thought ,

 

# Similar system could work for weapons too I would imagine that would go hand in hand.

 

 

Thanks for the updates Keep em coming

[Hormalakh]

I'm all for this armor conversation, but I just wanted to say that I was pretty disappointed in Josh for only addressing Earth in his post. The martians who have pledged in Kickstarter are people too. Not cool Josh, not cool.

[Methuseleh]

The Darklands-style health / stamina bars do factor into the armor discussion. Using a shield to block costs some stamina. Getting hit with a club would cost health and stamina. Armor would change this. Some health damage might be converted to simple stamina loss and some of the stamina loss which would otherwise have been sustained may be blocked altogether.

 

Now that practically begs for armor integrity to be degraded over time, however let's leave that issue alone for a moment.

 

Armor choices thus vary between lighter versions which cost less stamina over time, but may provide less damage protection and heavy armor types that can take a pounding but require massive stamina to move and fight in.

 

Hit an unarmored individual and they are taking physical damage which is bad. Of course, if they run away, they may be hard to catch.

 

Hit an armored knight and they're probably barely gling to noticethe as they wallop you with a zweihander.

 

In short, there is a reason why peasants ran when they saw knights approaching... and why knights preferred to ride horses.

[terryrayc]

I have kinda a strange question.

 

So I kicked in for the $250 tier

 

So the reward starts with 'Previous reward tier'

 

Which tier?

 

Do I get all of the physical tiers that come before or do I get the

Digital Collector's Edition tier?

 

I ask because to be honest I have no idea how many copies of the game I'm getting. I know I get 1 copy with the Signed collectors set but do I also get the 2 download copies included in the $80.00 tier?

 

How many Beta keys do I get and such. LOL it's hard to break it all down.

 

I mainly ask because I'm trying to talk some guys here at work to go in with me and kick some extra cash Obsidian's way while paypal is still open and I'm trying to figure out how many copies we have to share and how many I'll need to figure on if we do a group buy in....Or if I should just get them to kick off their own pledges.

Edited November 1, 2012 by terryrayc

[Elerond]

I have kinda a strange question.

 

So I kicked in for the $250 tier

 

So the reward starts with 'Previous reward tier'

 

Which tier?

 

Do I get all of the physical tiers that come before or do I get the

Digital Collector's Edition tier?

 

I ask because to be honest I have no idea how many copies of the game I'm getting. I know I get 1 copy with the Signed collectors set but do I also get the 2 download copies included in the $80.00 tier?

 

How many Beta keys do I get and such. LOL it's hard to break it all down.

 

I mainly ask because I'm trying to talk some guys here at work to go in with me and kick some extra cash Obsidian's way while paypal is still open and I'm trying to figure out how many copies we have to share and how many I'll need to figure on if we do a group buy in....Or if I should just get them to kick off their own pledges.

 

http://project-etern...ty-reward-tiers

 

$250 Signed Collector’s Edition Tier (Physical Tier, Please add $30 for international shipping outside of the US)

• Collector’s Box Version signed by Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, Josh Sawyer, and the rest of the Project Eternity team. The game copy is DRM free for Windows, Mac, or Linux, with DVD and printed manual.
  
• Full Color Printed Hardcover Project Eternity Collector’s Book.
  
• Elite Version of the Project Eternity Kickstarter Backer Cloth Patch.
  
• Making of Project Eternity Documentary (DVD/Blu-ray)
  
• Project Eternity’s First Expansion.
  
• Digital Downloadable copy of Wasteland 2 DRM Free.
  
• Digital Audio Book of the Novella by Chris Avellone narrated by a professional voice actor.
  
• Cloth Map of the World.
  
• Project Eternity Mouse Pad.
  
• Early Access Beta Key.
  
• Project Eternity T-Shirt.
  
• Special Thanks in-game credits.
  
• Thank you postcard from the development team.
  
• VIP Forum Badge.
  
• Digital Strategy Guide.
  
• Digital Novella by Chris Avellone.
  
• Kickstarter Exclusive In-Game Pet.
  
• Digital Campaign Almanac.
  
• Digital High-Res Game Map.
  
• Digital High-Res Concept Art Pieces.
  
• Wallpapers for Multiple Monitors.
  
• Project Eternity Themed Ringtones.
  
• Digital Downloadable Soundtrack in MP3 and FLAC.
  
• Digital Collector’s Book.
  
• Digital Downloadable Copy of Project Eternity, DRM free for Windows, Mac, or Linux.
  
• Cooking with Tim - An RPG Themed Cookbook PDF
  
• Kickstarter only in-game achievement and item.
  

 

Hope this helps

Edited November 1, 2012 by Elerond

[terryrayc]

I have kinda a strange question.

 

So I kicked in for the $250 tier

 

So the reward starts with 'Previous reward tier'

 

Which tier?

 

Do I get all of the physical tiers that come before or do I get the

Digital Collector's Edition tier?

 

I ask because to be honest I have no idea how many copies of the game I'm getting. I know I get 1 copy with the Signed collectors set but do I also get the 2 download copies included in the $80.00 tier?

 

How many Beta keys do I get and such. LOL it's hard to break it all down.

 

I mainly ask because I'm trying to talk some guys here at work to go in with me and kick some extra cash Obsidian's way while paypal is still open and I'm trying to figure out how many copies we have to share and how many I'll need to figure on if we do a group buy in....Or if I should just get them to kick off their own pledges.

 

http://project-etern...ty-reward-tiers

 

$250 Signed Collector’s Edition Tier (Physical Tier, Please add $30 for international shipping outside of the US)

• Collector’s Box Version signed by Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, Josh Sawyer, and the rest of the Project Eternity team. The game copy is DRM free for Windows, Mac, or Linux, with DVD and printed manual.
  
• Full Color Printed Hardcover Project Eternity Collector’s Book.
  
• Elite Version of the Project Eternity Kickstarter Backer Cloth Patch.
  
• Making of Project Eternity Documentary (DVD/Blu-ray)
  
• Project Eternity’s First Expansion.
  
• Digital Downloadable copy of Wasteland 2 DRM Free.
  
• Digital Audio Book of the Novella by Chris Avellone narrated by a professional voice actor.
  
• Cloth Map of the World.
  
• Project Eternity Mouse Pad.
  
• Early Access Beta Key.
  
• Project Eternity T-Shirt.
  
• Special Thanks in-game credits.
  
• Thank you postcard from the development team.
  
• VIP Forum Badge.
  
• Digital Strategy Guide.
  
• Digital Novella by Chris Avellone.
  
• Kickstarter Exclusive In-Game Pet.
  
• Digital Campaign Almanac.
  
• Digital High-Res Game Map.
  
• Digital High-Res Concept Art Pieces.
  
• Wallpapers for Multiple Monitors.
  
• Project Eternity Themed Ringtones.
  
• Digital Downloadable Soundtrack in MP3 and FLAC.
  
• Digital Collector’s Book.
  
• Digital Downloadable Copy of Project Eternity, DRM free for Windows, Mac, or Linux.
  
• Cooking with Tim - An RPG Themed Cookbook PDF
  
• Kickstarter only in-game achievement and item.
  

 

Hope this helps

Yes but that's not fully correct.

 

If you look at the official page it shows this

 

Signed Retail Collector's Edition

 

$250

Previous reward tier + you get your COLLECTOR'S EDITION BOX signed by CHRIS AVELLONE, TIM CAIN, JOSH SAWYER, and the rest of the development team + full color printed PROJECT ETERNITY COLLECTOR'S BOOK + an elite version of the PROJECT ETERNITY CLOTH PATCH. The book will be a full color book that includes concept art, player's handbook, monster manual, exclusive information about the campaign setting and characters, and a special behind the scenes look at making the game. Please add $30 for international shipping.

 

What throws me is the Previous reward tier

 

The Previous tier is

 

 

Digital Collector's Edition w/Wasteland 2 + Expansion

 

$165

FIRST EXPANSION/WASTELAND2 DIGITAL ONLY TIER - All rewards from the previous digital tiers + PROJECT ETERNITY'S FIRST EXPANSION + DRM free digital download copy of WASTELAND 2 + all the other digital rewards of the $250 tier available now and added during the Kickstarter campaign. If you don't need the physical goods, then this is a great reward tier for you.

 

or is it the physical tiers before. LOL, sounds like it's everything in the Physical Tier's which is cool which means 2 copies of the game, one physical and one Digital. LOL Sorting it all out is part of the fun.

[Elerond]

 

 

I have kinda a strange question.

 

So I kicked in for the $250 tier

 

So the reward starts with 'Previous reward tier'

 

Which tier?

 

Do I get all of the physical tiers that come before or do I get the

Digital Collector's Edition tier?

 

I ask because to be honest I have no idea how many copies of the game I'm getting. I know I get 1 copy with the Signed collectors set but do I also get the 2 download copies included in the $80.00 tier?

 

How many Beta keys do I get and such. LOL it's hard to break it all down.

 

I mainly ask because I'm trying to talk some guys here at work to go in with me and kick some extra cash Obsidian's way while paypal is still open and I'm trying to figure out how many copies we have to share and how many I'll need to figure on if we do a group buy in....Or if I should just get them to kick off their own pledges.

 

 

 

 

http://project-etern...ty-reward-tiers

 

$250 Signed Collector’s Edition Tier (Physical Tier, Please add $30 for international shipping outside of the US)

• Collector’s Box Version signed by Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, Josh Sawyer, and the rest of the Project Eternity team. The game copy is DRM free for Windows, Mac, or Linux, with DVD and printed manual.
  
• Full Color Printed Hardcover Project Eternity Collector’s Book.
  
• Elite Version of the Project Eternity Kickstarter Backer Cloth Patch.
  
• Making of Project Eternity Documentary (DVD/Blu-ray)
  
• Project Eternity’s First Expansion.
  
• Digital Downloadable copy of Wasteland 2 DRM Free.
  
• Digital Audio Book of the Novella by Chris Avellone narrated by a professional voice actor.
  
• Cloth Map of the World.
  
• Project Eternity Mouse Pad.
  
• Early Access Beta Key.
  
• Project Eternity T-Shirt.
  
• Special Thanks in-game credits.
  
• Thank you postcard from the development team.
  
• VIP Forum Badge.
  
• Digital Strategy Guide.
  
• Digital Novella by Chris Avellone.
  
• Kickstarter Exclusive In-Game Pet.
  
• Digital Campaign Almanac.
  
• Digital High-Res Game Map.
  
• Digital High-Res Concept Art Pieces.
  
• Wallpapers for Multiple Monitors.
  
• Project Eternity Themed Ringtones.
  
• Digital Downloadable Soundtrack in MP3 and FLAC.
  
• Digital Collector’s Book.
  
• Digital Downloadable Copy of Project Eternity, DRM free for Windows, Mac, or Linux.
  
• Cooking with Tim - An RPG Themed Cookbook PDF
  
• Kickstarter only in-game achievement and item.
  

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

 

Yes but that's not fully correct.

 

If you look at the official page it shows this

 

Signed Retail Collector's Edition

 

$250

Previous reward tier + you get your COLLECTOR'S EDITION BOX signed by CHRIS AVELLONE, TIM CAIN, JOSH SAWYER, and the rest of the development team + full color printed PROJECT ETERNITY COLLECTOR'S BOOK + an elite version of the PROJECT ETERNITY CLOTH PATCH. The book will be a full color book that includes concept art, player's handbook, monster manual, exclusive information about the campaign setting and characters, and a special behind the scenes look at making the game. Please add $30 for international shipping.

 

What throws me is the Previous reward tier

 

The Previous tier is

 

 

Digital Collector's Edition w/Wasteland 2 + Expansion

 

$165

FIRST EXPANSION/WASTELAND2 DIGITAL ONLY TIER - All rewards from the previous digital tiers + PROJECT ETERNITY'S FIRST EXPANSION + DRM free digital download copy of WASTELAND 2 + all the other digital rewards of the $250 tier available now and added during the Kickstarter campaign. If you don't need the physical goods, then this is a great reward tier for you.

 

or is it the physical tiers before. LOL, sounds like it's everything in the Physical Tier's which is cool which means 2 copies of the game, one physical and one Digital. LOL Sorting it all out is part of the fun.

 

 

 

 

They mean with previous tier, previous physical tier, which is $140. And that list in obsidian tumblr page should be most specific about what each tier includes as they say on PE's kickstarter's homepage that one should look complete reward list from there.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Elerond

[terryrayc]

cool...looks like the only error I see on that list would be that it's missing the patch. Other then that it's a good list of loot

[Somna]

I'm not quite sure if this thought has come up yet (since it may have zoomed past my glazed eyes), but...

 

We know we have the stamina/health split. So why not use it here?

 

Have physical armor convert incoming health damage to stamina damage, probably in a magnified ratio like 5 Stamina:1 Health.

 

Depending on the incoming kind of damage, different armors (and protections) can convert things differently. So the "heavy" armors can have an easier time converting melee and ranged damage, the "medium" armors can have an easier time converting firearms and ranged damage, and "light" armor has an easier time converting magical and ranged damage, for example.

 

Alternately, the "lighter" armors convert the health damage at a lower ratio (but at a lower limit) and the "heavier" armors convert the health damage to stamina damage at a higher ratio but at a higher limit. Then introduce abilities that let you reduce the damage you take in lighter armors, or increase your stamina pool/bar/whatever while wearing heavier armors.

 

Magical protection can thus convert damage in a fixed ratio somewhere in the middle, except that firearms get to bypass the conversion entirely on a magical barrier. In response, you can have abilities that are more effective while you keep a magical barrier up, like being able to use a fire shield to amplify fire spells cast through it, for example.

[Grand_Commander13]

I find the idea of lighter armors being better than heavy armor at anything kind of silly. Unless fatigue is in the game, then cost should be the big thing determining what kind of armor you want. Heavy armor doesn't slow you down all that much, and it certainly shouldn't be any more vulnerable to arrows.

 

I doubt having armor affect the stamina/health split is in the cards anyway. Stamina is something you worry about in individual fights, and determines how long until you're knocked down; health is something you care about over the course of several fights, and when it gets low is when it's time to rest for the day.

[Somna]

I find the idea of lighter armors being better than heavy armor at anything kind of silly. Unless fatigue is in the game, then cost should be the big thing determining what kind of armor you want. Heavy armor doesn't slow you down all that much, and it certainly shouldn't be any more vulnerable to arrows.

 

I doubt having armor affect the stamina/health split is in the cards anyway. Stamina is something you worry about in individual fights, and determines how long until you're knocked down; health is something you care about over the course of several fights, and when it gets low is when it's time to rest for the day.

 

Just to clarify:

 

Ranged = arrows.

 

Firearms = bullets.

[Lynx88]

Hi, my first post here

 

I think that armor progression shouldn't replace each other, like the example of leather armor replacing hide armor.

 

Rather each should have separate 'upgrade' paths, as outlined in the 'Tier' system.

 

For these to remain viable throughout the game, use the functional descriptors for the upgraded protection bonuses ("fine scale" is crafted by experienced armour smith, protects the joints better and has better armour rating), and cultural/material descriptors unique to the armour type to confer that armour's unique bonuses so they have more "character" (iron feather scale is lighter than normal iron scale, gives dexterity bonus/doesn't have penalty for dodge).

 

So, if you allow the functional descriptors and cultural/material descriptors to be combined, you'd have a "fine iron feather scale" armour that has a better armour rating than regular Tier 1 scale, and confers a dexterity bonus/no dodge penalty.

 

This way, even if a particular armour has better protection than other armour types, certain effects or bonuses found only in a certain armour type's upgrade path won't make it obsolete.

Better yet, letting players upgrade their current set of armour will create a sense of attachment to it instead of just tossing it aside whenever a shiny new upgraded version turns up in a shop somewhere, which just happens to be the correct size and fit for the character. This could also tie in to the crafting and enchanting part of the game, to make these upgrades possible only through getting the requisite materials and sending it to a blacksmith/armor smith to be upgraded.

 

Many games i've played in the past have given me a feeling of, "I really like the look and feel of this armor, but I have to replace it because another different armor set has better stats and it'll be very difficult if not impossible to survive with my current gear".

 

In effect, this will also avoid "killing the visual concept of the rough-hewn rawhide-wearing ranger or barbarian".