Respec?

[Gorgon]

I like risk, in the form of permadeath for NPC party members like in BG2, not in the shape of blind choices and sucky builds.

[Juneau]

Why not remove the ability to respec completely from the game but create an option where you can undo the last attribute change infinitely so. That way, you have your point you spend it and you can undo that point UNTIL you place another point.

 

That way you can undo a mistake / change your mind a little easily.

[Frisk]

Why not remove the ability to respec completely from the game but create an option where you can undo the last attribute change infinitely so. That way, you have your point you spend it and you can undo that point UNTIL you place another point.

 

That way you can undo a mistake / change your mind a little easily.

 

Hove about having to live with the results of your mistakes, and find ways to bypass them or turn them into strengths? You know, like in *gasp* real life?

 

Also, keep in mind that some attribute changes might not be the result of a simple selection, but rather the result of the player's actions. For example, you might solve a particular quest, and be rewarded with a permanent bonus to some stat or skill. Allowing the player to "respec" that somehow would be outright silly.

 

I have not yet heard of a single good reason to allow players to "respec" in a game like this - although I can understand the demand for such a feature in MMOs, where reloading from an older save file is not an option.

 

I really hope there will not be any "respec" option, unless there is something that makes sense, story-wise.

[Osvir]

Read page 1, skimmed page 2-3.

 

Many people seem to oppose respec, and I am with the crowd (in the sense that "Pay 5000 gold, respec" or "Pay 1000 gold first time, then 2000 gold next time, 3000 gold etc. etc." is the method used for respec).

 

Pulling out the Quest and World card/suggestion:

What I can see is a once only per game Quest respec, a story element which puts your character in a situation where his powers are literally drained from him (in a mechanically/statistically view: brought back to level 1). Maybe you could even benefit something (you gain a perk which you bring with you, dialogue options, depth of story later, an extra spell, an extra item/weapon/armor) by doing so and you would have to go through some "introvert personal parallel universe dimension"-simplistic mini dungeon (1-2 levels?) filled with riddles and mysteries where you start off as level 1 (without any gear at all) and gradually gain levels by doing objectives that gets you to a certain level.

 

Otherwise, for a more simplistic method, you could simply be brought back to level 1 and gain X times more experience until you reach the level you were (which would be a difficulty in itself, starting off as a level 1 when all the enemies are level 5-6 at this point in the game).

 

Some sort of soul draining Necromancy springs to mind EDIT: Baldur's Gate 2 does this to your character if you decide to create the same character again in spirit, from scratch, but you decide to make him/her a Mage this time E.g, not exporting and importing from the earlier installment.

 

Though, something similar to this seems to be what Sawyer is hinting at. Regardless (if implemented), it should be located somewhere late early-game all the way up to, preferably, late mid-game when you've grown accustomed to the game and accustomed to the choices you've made (what went wrong, what went right etc. etc.)

 

EDIT: There could (even should) be disadvantages to re-specializing in a game like this in my opinion. Like a curse, you gain something (apart from the respec) but you also lose something.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Osvir

[wanderon]

So, when I get into trouble with a difficult enemy, I just respec my characters to suite the situation?

 

Well according to that quote by Josh you would have to wait (or possibly go back to) one of the points in the game where respec is possible (maybe a trainer) pay some sort of significant cost - maybe a "game cost" like coin or items or maybe a character cost like giving up a character point(s) of some sort.

 

Upon doing that you would be able to respec "advancement choices (e.g. skills, feats, spells, etc.) " but not "the base aspects of a character (e.g. class, race). "

 

It's not clear whether or not he considers your original stats (attributtes) part of the base aspects or advancement choices but I suspect they might be base aspects.

 

Given that he also wants this to have some sort of reasonable "cover story" making it an integral part of the game and complying with the game world in some manner - I don't have any issue with it myself.

[Juneau]

You know, like in *gasp* real life?

 

I really hate that argument. 1, it's a game. 2, it's set in a fantasy world and 3, it's not real life!

 

Saying that however. I didn't say live with it I was just making a suggestion, one of many suggestions on how to possibly handle it to suit everyone. Some people don't want it - Others do, so try and find a solution in the middle that won't break the game?

 

As for if someone were to receive a skill point through a skill book or something. Then that wouldn't apply because the player didn't choose it.

[Farbautisonn]

It is not adding consequences to choice, it is punishing for not having system mastery.

 

This.

 

So often you have no real idea what you are selecting before you have tried it out some.

 

Name me something in life that doesnt have that quality.

 

 

We are "roleplaying". Guessing whats behind door number two is nice but its rarely if ever something we get to rechoose after we choose whats behind door number one.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Farbautisonn

[Farbautisonn]

You know, like in *gasp* real life?

 

I really hate that argument. 1, it's a game. 2, it's set in a fantasy world and 3, it's not real life!

 

Saying that however. I didn't say live with it I was just making a suggestion, one of many suggestions on how to possibly handle it to suit everyone. Some people don't want it - Others do, so try and find a solution in the middle that won't break the game?

 

As for if someone were to receive a skill point through a skill book or something. Then that wouldn't apply because the player didn't choose it.

1) Point ?

 

2) Yes?

 

3) No but a modicum of realism helps "Suspension of disbelief" and helps me immerse into the toon. I dont know any place I can go to IRL and get "respecced" and get m "Talent points and feats" refunded.

 

If I get a respec Im not the guy ingame trying to figure out how to mange with what I have. Im a guy sitting behidn a screen yelling "thats ****ing inept!"

 

Respeccing breaks suspension of disbelief, essential in all storytelling. So why bother?

[The Guilty Party]

Thank god you all aren't game designers. You do realize most people play video games to have fun, right?

Edited October 31, 2012 by The Guilty Party

[Shadenuat]

Define fun.

[Gorgon]

I must admit I get zero řƟłěƤĮāŷíńģ enjoyment out of leveling up. It does grate at me constantly if I can't have my character the way I imagined it.

[Osvir]

You know, like in *gasp* real life?

 

I really hate that argument. 1, it's a game. 2, it's set in a fantasy world and 3, it's not real life!

 

Saying that however. I didn't say live with it I was just making a suggestion, one of many suggestions on how to possibly handle it to suit everyone. Some people don't want it - Others do, so try and find a solution in the middle that won't break the game?

 

As for if someone were to receive a skill point through a skill book or something. Then that wouldn't apply because the player didn't choose it.

1) Point ?

 

2) Yes?

 

3) No but a modicum of realism helps "Suspension of disbelief" and helps me immerse into the toon. I dont know any place I can go to IRL and get "respecced" and get m "Talent points and feats" refunded.

 

If I get a respec Im not the guy ingame trying to figure out how to mange with what I have. Im a guy sitting behidn a screen yelling "thats ****ing inept!"

 

Respeccing breaks suspension of disbelief, essential in all storytelling. So why bother?

 

Let's play with the idea that re-specialization is in the game, speculation and "IF". How would you want it to be present in the game? (again, if it is in the fantasy game)

 

What if there is a middle road where you get the immersion, the roleplaying aspects (in the form of a side-quest with story and "explanation", e.g., the storytelling), and those that simply want the feature gets the feature?

[Hormalakh]

I didn't know what respeccing was. But now that I've heard the arguments on both sides, I'd have to say no to respeccing. Everytime I haven't done the build that I wanted to have in a game, I've just told myself "That's what i'll do the next time I play this game." Or I restart.

 

There is a gratifying feeling you get when you are sometimes forced to do things that you don't think you can with your character, but persistence prevailed and you were successful even without an "optimal" build. That isn't something I'd get with the ability to respec my character. X-COM (the older game) wouldn't have been as terrifying and fun if my bad decisions wouldn't haunt me as time went on.

 

Respeccing takes that feeling away from me, especially if it's a feature of a game that I don't reuse. Putting time into making a quest where I can respec, is taking time away from something else. Allowing a game mechanic to respec takes time away fro focusing on other features. These options all have money and time costs an are not trivial mechanics to implement, if they want to be implemented in-game.

 

If you want respeccing, wait for the mod. If you want it, just download it as opposed to those of us who don't want it having to forego a portion of the game that the devs made.

[evdk]

What if there is a middle road where you get the immersion, the roleplaying aspects (in the form of a side-quest with story and "explanation", e.g., the storytelling), and those that simply want the feature gets the feature?

Still stupid and unwelcome.

[Shadenuat]

What if there is a middle road

WE ELITISTS DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS!

There can be no compromise!!11

There can be only war! WAR!

[Kecaw]

Ill add mine 2 cents to this, if you really want a respect make it only so that you can respect your traits/skills/atributes you know dump to lvl 1 and re do it to the lvl you are (no class/gender/race respec that would be silly) BUT like above said, make it cost i mean hell you want to erase a mistake you made then pay the damn toll for it! and the more you want to respec then the more you have to pay every time, but saying all that let me ask a question "how" would you likke to see the whole respec thing and why? Example " oh no i put 1 point in wisdom when i wanted in endurance" or" i put some skills in daggers when i wanted in 2-handed sword!" Im sorry what? if you really would do that and needed respecing because you made a mistake like that then you are really blind dumb or drunk because normaly in a game like this you have EVERYTHING described so you SEE what you pick hell you even SEE what you need to pick to unlock a skill on lvl X so yeah if you made a mistake in idk skills traits or stuff like that thats really you being stupid or cant read no seriosly how would you make a mistake? when you have everything said about the thing you want to chose idk. you would have to close your eyes and do the Eeny, meeny, miny, moe thing.

[evdk]

What if there is a middle road

WE ELITISTS DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS!

There can be no compromise!!11

There can be only war! WAR!

 

"Todd, what is best in life?"

"Riding on a horse killing monsters with your faithful love interest on your side in a pseudo European Middle Ages setting"

"WRONG! Vince, what is best in life?"

"To crush popamole, drive it's developers before you and hear the lamentation of the players who couldn't get through character generation! Good ****ing riddance!"

"Good!"

Edited October 31, 2012 by evdk

[Nteger]

I am in favor of respeccing. The game should be challenging because it's challenging, not because my party is a piece of crap.

[FlintlockJazz]

I'm not a fan of respeccing, but some minor respeccing is okay as long as it is prohibitively expensive and can only be done a couple of times in the game. You should only be allowed to respec one or two things at a time, rather like how in NWN2 you could change some of your sorcerer spells at level up but only a couple and only after you could cast vastly higher spells. If you want to be able to respec your sword and board character into a dual wielder then you can feck right off, as it should only be used for when you have made a mistake not to essentially create a whole new character. You may be thinking "Waah whats it to you what I do with my character??!1" well if you can completely respec your character like that then it means that the game can no longer be written with the assumption that you will always be that same 'character', that storylines can no longer be constructed for particular builds because now you can suddenly change what you are half way through the game. I've always wanted a game that takes into account how I've built my character, I'm not being deprieved of it so that some twinks want to min/max their gibbons!

 

Also, respecs were created for MMOs, in order to allow players who were being cut out of portions of the game because they weren't 'the right spec' to get places in raids and suchlike. And with full respecs you end up with things like 'leveling builds' to get you to max level so you can then respec to a 'final build' that would be gimped to level up as but which is overpowered at full level, destroy the content in the game, and then come crying to the forums complaining that the game isn't hard enough and demanding that it be made harder for their leet builds, screwing everyone else over.

[Shadenuat]

The game should be challenging because it's challenging, not because my party is a piece of crap.

Oh god, that does that for me. I need some air.

[RaketenRichard]

I like making choices. I like the finality of choice because it is (for me) what creates some kind of identiy and therefore is a very important feature in rpgs. But also having some interchangeable features can be quite fun.

 

Nobody of the death-to-respec people seems to be concerned about the fact that you could respec your gear in BG2 anytime you want (exactly like skills in D3) and this was a really cool thing, because it added some tactics and freedom to the game. Gear is a big part of character customization and its usually completely interchangeable. Think of the anti-undead mace you found during the second Bodhi encounter, the fireweapons against trolls, the club/mace thing with golems and the anti-mindflayer sword found during the events of TOB.

 

Another example is the system of memorizing spells in BG2. The priest, wizard or druid could choose before each rest a couple of spells they wanted to use. This system of memorizing was indeed a form of "respec". And it was great! If an encounter was really hard, I thought a lot about which spells it would be best to choose. Maybe some AOE dmg fireball? Or rather mass confusion? Maybe it would be better to cast invisibility on every character? Or protection against evil and open some gate to hell?

 

So these were both core features of BG2 that I liked a lot. And therefore my question:

 

Why not add a couple of skills to each class that you can change from time to time (visit tronghold, take rest)?

 

This is a great way to add tactical complexity to the game, because people have to think about possible combinations to solve harder encounters. Also I don't think it would destroy roleplay, if there were enough other decions (race, gender, class, a couple of combat talents, tradeskills) that are final.

 

If you don't like that idea, please point out why that is something different of the examples shown above.

 

[sorry for all the editing =)]

Edited October 31, 2012 by RaketenRichard

[evdk]

Changing gear is not respec. Diablo III does not even enter into this discussion. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!

[FlintlockJazz]

I like making choices. I like the finality of choice because it is (for me) what creates some kind of identiy and therefore a very important feature in rpgs. But also having some interchangeable features can be quite fun.

 

Nobody of the death-to-respec people seems to be concerned about the fact that you could respec your gear in BG2 anytime you want (exactly like skills in D3) and this was a really cool thing, because it added some tactics and freedom to the game.

 

Gear is a big part of character customization and its usually completely interchangeable.

 

Think of the anti-undead mace you found during the second Bodhi encounter, the fireweapons against trolls, the club/mace thing with golems and the anti-mindflayer sword found during the events of TOB.

 

Another example is the magic system in BG2. Think of the Priest, Wizard or Druid they could choose before each rest a couple of spells they wanted to use. This system of memorizing was indeed a form of "respec".

 

So these were both core features of BG2 that I liked a lot. And therefore my question:

 

Why not add a couple of skills to each class that you can change from time to time (visit tronghold, take rest)?

 

This is a great way to add tactical complexity to the game, because people have to think about possible combinations to solve harder encounters. Also I don't think it would destroy roleplay, if there were enough other decions (race, gender, class, a couple of combat talents, tradeskills) that are final.

 

If you don't like that idea, please point out why that is something different of the examples shown above.

 

Changing gear does not count as respeccing and never has, and actually it shows how respeccing can ruin the impact of gear has upon an encounter: if you can respec yourself to fit an encounter then picking the right equipment for the task at hand is no longer as important. Why take along that mace that kills undead when you can respec yourself to have that anti-undead power that lets you take along that more powerful sword and then imbue it with anti-undead with your respecced powers that you wouldn't normally take because they are so situational?

[RaketenRichard]

I like making choices. I like the finality of choice because it is (for me) what creates some kind of identiy and therefore a very important feature in rpgs. But also having some interchangeable features can be quite fun.

 

Nobody of the death-to-respec people seems to be concerned about the fact that you could respec your gear in BG2 anytime you want (exactly like skills in D3) and this was a really cool thing, because it added some tactics and freedom to the game.

 

Gear is a big part of character customization and its usually completely interchangeable.

 

Think of the anti-undead mace you found during the second Bodhi encounter, the fireweapons against trolls, the club/mace thing with golems and the anti-mindflayer sword found during the events of TOB.

 

Another example is the magic system in BG2. Think of the Priest, Wizard or Druid they could choose before each rest a couple of spells they wanted to use. This system of memorizing was indeed a form of "respec".

 

So these were both core features of BG2 that I liked a lot. And therefore my question:

 

Why not add a couple of skills to each class that you can change from time to time (visit tronghold, take rest)?

 

This is a great way to add tactical complexity to the game, because people have to think about possible combinations to solve harder encounters. Also I don't think it would destroy roleplay, if there were enough other decions (race, gender, class, a couple of combat talents, tradeskills) that are final.

 

If you don't like that idea, please point out why that is something different of the examples shown above.

 

Changing gear does not count as respeccing and never has, and actually it shows how respeccing can ruin the impact of gear has upon an encounter: if you can respec yourself to fit an encounter then picking the right equipment for the task at hand is no longer as important. Why take along that mace that kills undead when you can respec yourself to have that anti-undead power that lets you take along that more powerful sword and then imbue it with anti-undead with your respecced powers that you wouldn't normally take because they are so situational?

 

Please read my post carefully. And yes There where completely situational spells in BG2. You could respec your mage very nicely for an undead-encounter. How about:

 

Hold Undead (Necromancy)

Range: Sight of caster

Saving Throw: Neg.

Casting Time: 3

Area of Effect: Special

Duration: 2 rounds/level

 

?

 

[Edit: I just saw that you quoted my unedited post. My fault, sorry, didn't want to offend you with this "read carefully" thing..]

Edited October 31, 2012 by RaketenRichard

[RaketenRichard]

Changing gear is not respec. Diablo III does not even enter into this discussion. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!

 

To me "respec" is the alternation of character customization. I'm sorry if we don't have the same definition. But just arguing about talents will keep this discussion a little flat.

 

Please tell me, what exactly is the difference between the skill system of D3 and the memorizing spells system of BG2?

Edited October 31, 2012 by RaketenRichard