Having an issue with the no healing magic or medicine

[Badmojo]

ok, more thematic/logic problem than gameplay wise. I just find it hard to believe that nobody has worked on healing at all in any field in the setting. That the only way to heal/cure something is to literally sleep it off. oh, got shot by an arrow, let me sleep it off. Just does not compute. Before medicine like antibodies, people died all the time from the simplest infected cut. Not to mention how easy it is to spread disease. I am just trying to figure out how the game world will explain it without some vague "oh, the gods did it *waves hands vaguely in the air*" moment.

 

I also get the suspension that sleeping is part of the plot, like having dream visions, or being visited by a deity, or just to move time forward.

 

Not really complaining, It is just something that has been nagging me in the back of my mind.

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

It was never mentioned that there was NO medicine or healing, it's just that the two aren't very well developed or understood. Granted, considering the time period that PE is based off of, disease and the frequency of death are most likely going to be two very real issues that are prevalent within the world.

[Badmojo]

It was never mentioned that there was NO medicine or healing, it's just that the two aren't very well developed or understood. Granted, considering the time period that PE is based off of, disease and the frequency of death are most likely going to be two very real issues that are prevalent within the world.

 

Still got the same problem, doesn't explain how a person can magically sleep off major wounds and if its so rare pretty much nobody uses it, then the world really should be filled with mass graves and the average people should be sickly to make the world believable.

[Volourn]

The explaination were' supposed to believe is that magic allows you to do all sorts of things from teleporting to creating fire out of thin to controlling another being's mind but healing a boo boo is impossible but if you get a little nighty night you'll be healthy again. Does not compute.

 

I don't get this new age where people want to take the magic of magic.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Volourn

[Sacred_Path]

I find the idea that healing magic is rare appealing, however you're right, if that results in resting every five steps it would be bad.

[nikolokolus]

Maybe the best explanation is that during bed rest, magical curatives are applied to hasten the body's natural healing processes? If there are in fact some limited magics to boost or restore stamina in the game during and after combat, then perhaps a patient with truly grievous wounds needs these same types of curatives applied while the patient's body mends itself during complete bed rest? So instead of convalescing for weeks to let a massive wound heal on its own, it can be accelerated to a matter of hours or a couple of days?

 

In any case, trying to apply logic as to why certain magic functions one way or another is completely futile. Personally, I find the idea that healing and resurrection magic are rare and/or non-existent kind of refreshing. It will be interesting to see how the entire scope of magic is handled in the game.

[Chunkyman]

I think not having healing potions/magic would actually add a really cool tactical element to combat.

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

Maybe it can have something to do with souls. Maybe particularly combat-oriented individuals have souls that have developed ways of having bodies recover naturally at an exponentially faster rate than others, but it isn't so much "healing magic" as "recovery", meaning it isn't instantaneous and the individual still needs to rest like any other in order to get better. Mages trying to develop and research restorative magics could be doing so by examining these souls and trying to understand them. That would kind of tie in with the whole "souls are mysterious and not much are known about them" thing, as well as the lacking knowledge and rarity of healing magic. Although it's just speculation.

[Volourn]

"I find the idea that healing magic is rare appealing, however you're right, if that results in resting every five steps it would be bad."

 

I could live with healing being 'less common' than say your typical DnD game with its dozens of healing magics but it is silly to claim that being healed while resting makes more sense then healing with magic. Kind of silly taking magic out of magic.

 

 

"Maybe it can have something to do with souls. Maybe particularly combat-oriented individuals have souls that have developed ways of having bodies recover naturally at an exponentially faster rate than others, but it isn't so much "healing magic" as "recovery", meaning it isn't instantaneous and the individual still needs to rest like any other in order to get better. Mages trying to develop and research restorative magics could be doing so by examining these souls and trying to understand them. That would kind of tie in with the whole "souls are mysterious and not much are known about them" thing, as well as the lacking knowledge and rarity of healing magic. Although it's just speculation"

 

Nah, it's a gamey thing. They don't want healing to be common so they nerf magic. It doesn't make sense that soul magic can do all sorts of stuff but can't heal a broken bone as good as sleeping. There is no logic in that. At all.

[HereticSaint]

How many times are you going to complain about this same subject? You've clearly been explained that it's going to be this way as far as they know and they believe it to be a good mechanic and idea.

 

Gameplay wise you have absolutely no right to say how it'll work, because, well, the game doesn't even really have gameplay now.

 

Lore wise, they can make the lore whatever they want, it doesn't have to be logical. Maybe Soul magic can't be explicitly controlled for healing because the Gods deem it so, but it does reach a sort of recuperative state that accelerates healing while someone sleeps.

 

There are a million other explainations, you just don't want to accept that the gameplay is going to be different. Not every adventuring party has to have a Priest, astonishing, I know. I'm sorry your love of Priests has gotten you offended by this idea.

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

"I find the idea that healing magic is rare appealing, however you're right, if that results in resting every five steps it would be bad."

 

I could live with healing being 'less common' than say your typical DnD game with its dozens of healing magics but it is silly to claim that being healed while resting makes more sense then healing with magic. Kind of silly taking magic out of magic.

 

 

"Maybe it can have something to do with souls. Maybe particularly combat-oriented individuals have souls that have developed ways of having bodies recover naturally at an exponentially faster rate than others, but it isn't so much "healing magic" as "recovery", meaning it isn't instantaneous and the individual still needs to rest like any other in order to get better. Mages trying to develop and research restorative magics could be doing so by examining these souls and trying to understand them. That would kind of tie in with the whole "souls are mysterious and not much are known about them" thing, as well as the lacking knowledge and rarity of healing magic. Although it's just speculation"

 

Nah, it's a gamey thing. They don't want healing to be common so they nerf magic. It doesn't make sense that soul magic can do all sorts of stuff but can't heal a broken bone as good as sleeping. There is no logic in that. At all.

 

It can potentially make sense. We just don't know enough about the lore and why healing magic is rare in the first place. We're just going to have to wait and see.

 

Anyways, I think this is bordering on "suspension of disbelief" territory. I mean in the Fallout games the main character gets bitten, beaten, mauled, stabbed, crushed, smashed, burnt alive, poisoned, stabbed, blasted by lasers, shot, blown up, and so on. Yet resting also netted regaining health in those games as well. There eventually comes a point where realism may need to be secondary to gameplay mechanics. It's just a limitation of video games.

Edited October 30, 2012 by YourVoiceisAmbrosia

[Tigranes]

I don't think we've confirmed that you can just 'sleep it off' and have rest heal all your health. There's likely to be restrictions of some sort.

 

I'm not really fussed about rationalising this, since the gameplay benefits are so clear.

[limaxophobiacq]

For one thing, given possible splitt stamina/hp system it's possible resting will always fully restore the former and not the later, and secondly losing hp might, just like in dnd, not really represent physical damage to your body.

[Volourn]

Nah. The benefits aren't anything special since either way - the game will likely be balanced (or at the elast the goal will be that). Lack of healing doesn't making the 'gameplay' any better. UIn fact, the best games with the best gameplay have healing magic even if said healing sin't technically magical (aka FO).

 

 

"For one thing, given possible splitt stamina/hp system it's possible resting will always fully restore the former and not the later, and secondly losing hp might, just like in dnd, not really represent physical damage to your body. "

 

Well.. there's gonna be a way to restore health - be it spells, potions, artifacts, healing skill, or resting. No way do they make a game where there is no way to heal yourself. Talk about trying to balance the game. L0L

Edited October 30, 2012 by Volourn

[Tamerlane]

This... I... what?

 

I mean, I can understand Volourn's objection from some terrible "RAGH MAGES!" angle, but the OP's complaint... that combination of assumption and obtuseness...

[Volourn]

Funny thing is I don'ty usually pick mages as my character. But, I dunno. I want my magic to be magic. I want the fantasy to be fantastical. This idea that magic cna't heal just seems counter productive what magic is supposed to symbolize.

 

If your goal is to limit insta healing - there are ways to do it in logical ways. Don't have unlimited healing potions or two dozen differnt healing spealls, and stuff like.

 

One way to do it is use that necromantic part of healing spells to deal with it. If a caster wants to heal himself he needs to use another living creature to do it. If he wants to heal another creature he needs to usehis own health to fuel it. If you use a mana system make the heal spell relatively costly. if you use a DnD style system make it so you can only memorize a limited number of healing spells.

 

So many ways to creatively do what Obsidian says they want to do without taking magic out of magic. Resting should NEVER be the better way to heal someone when comapring it to magic. Just bogggles the mind.

[Tamerlane]

We'll have to inform Merlin and Gandalf that their magic does not meet your standards, tovarishch.

[Thangorodrim]

I would like healing to be a feature of the stronghold ... maybe you can add an herb garden or restorative spring to your stronghold ... you could still gain some level of restoration in the field or an Inn but the effects in your stronghold would be magnified ... this gives the user choice as to whether to add this feature and whether and how often to use it ... I think they have to work out some level of healing magics or the Mega dungeon won't work very effectively ... there have to be limits on magic and healing for balance but going through a 15 level dungeon without resting would be near impossible and resting every level or two (or exiting) would be somewhat annoying I would think ... that's my take on it

[Labadal]

ok, more thematic/logic problem than gameplay wise. I just find it hard to believe that nobody has worked on healing at all in any field in the setting. That the only way to heal/cure something is to literally sleep it off. oh, got shot by an arrow, let me sleep it off. Just does not compute. Before medicine like antibodies, people died all the time from the simplest infected cut. Not to mention how easy it is to spread disease. I am just trying to figure out how the game world will explain it without some vague "oh, the gods did it *waves hands vaguely in the air*" moment.

 

I also get the suspension that sleeping is part of the plot, like having dream visions, or being visited by a deity, or just to move time forward.

 

Not really complaining, It is just something that has been nagging me in the back of my mind.

 

As I understand it: Resting heals stamina but not life points.

 

I might have misunderstood and I migh be wrong, but that's how I think it works.

[HansKrSG]

The explaination were' supposed to believe is that magic allows you to do all sorts of things from teleporting to creating fire out of thin to controlling another being's mind but healing a boo boo is impossible but if you get a little nighty night you'll be healthy again. Does not compute.

 

I don't get this new age where people want to take the magic of magic.

 

I partly agree, but think of the real world. Its much easier to kill people (magic missiles, lightning bolt, fireball or guns, grenades and bombs), than it is to heal people. Anyone can point and shoot, only those who study hard can heal, and even then, there are many things we don't understand, or can't cure today. I can easily see how magical forces can do strong but ultimately blunt tricks, while knitting flesh, arteries, veins and nerve endings, and regenerate lost blood, removing things too small to see (viruses, bacteria, etc.) is a much harder feat.

 

That said, I do feel that the approach is missing something, but I am curious how it will actually be played out.

[Rabain]

As I understand it: Resting heals stamina but not life points.

 

I might have misunderstood and I migh be wrong, but that's how I think it works.

 

From what we have been told so far I'd believe the opposite. Resting heals health while stamina is something that just returns naturally shortly after combat, say within 2 minutes of combat ending you will have full stamina again but if you move forward immediately or are attacked your stamina continues to regen slowly. Health never regens quickly and requires Rest (8hours usually) to return to full.

 

There are benefits to both systems, no health regen but reasonable stamina regen can keep you moving but still provide that "danger" aspect to every fight. Healing spells and abilities provide the ability to move forward but come at the cost of carrying a healer in your party and depending on their number of available heals.

 

No doubt there will be tweaks to the system once they have the basics developed and actually play test it.

 

On the point of magic not being magic if you can't heal, well to be honest I'd much rather my mage was blasting stuff than healing friendlies. It will also be interesting to see classes like the priest be much less healing focused and more buff/attack focused.

[Suen]

ok, more thematic/logic problem than gameplay wise. I just find it hard to believe that nobody has worked on healing at all in any field in the setting. That the only way to heal/cure something is to literally sleep it off.

Imo, sleep off should help, unless you are so sick you can't sleep at all, but threating wounds/diseases should be a separate action.

Magic healing... without knowledge of how the human body and diseases work, healers shouldn't be able to just wish the bacteria away. Maybe the soul energy can only strengthen the metabolism.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Suen

[Jasede]

Realism doesn't matter if it makes for a better gaming experience. In the end the entertainment value is more important than adhering to some (often arbitrary) realism rules. That is not to say they can't be used to add to the game. You could have a game with "realistic" healing where resting only helps marginally and you'd have to spend days to heal anything substantial but then you'd have to make the quests time-sensitive and alter the entire premise of the world. And that's not the kind of game they set out to make.

[Elerond]

I think that no major healing/resurrection/etc. spells is very good choice lore wide, as it always destroy my the suspension of disbelief when there is assassination of major npc or s/he dies some other way and world is on turmoil and nevertheless that same world is full of people who have ability to resurrect dead. For example why our character in baldur's gate didn't have option to take Gorion's corpse to candel keep where there are several priest who can resurrect people. Or why my priest character in Baldur's Gate 2 can't resurrect Khalid, and etc. things that have always bugged me in D&D and Forgotten Realms. Or why there is people dying in diseases when every town has priest with cute diseases spell, it just don't make sense to me especially when there is no explanation in lore (in games) why it is so.

 

So fully support lores that say that magic don't have insta healing powers and it can't bring dead back to life. Because then it much easier to make believable world where bad things happen. But if magic has ability to cure most of the misesry from world without any great cost to its users, but they some reason don't do such thing, I can only think what evil bastards those mages and priest are.

[Ignatius]

So, to be clear, you could have 1 HP, but full stamina, and you'd survive the fight so long as you don't take any more HP damage... right?

 

I like the system, because stamina makes sense, but I don't know how it will prevent rest spam. If you're at 1 HP and you know the boss is in the next room, I think most people will opt to trudge all the way out of the dungeon, rest up, and then come back to finish the thing off, completely negating the point of this system in the process.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Ignatius