About humans..

[Halric]

Personally, the best possible thing that can ever happen to an RPG game is to exclude Humans from it! This race is so boring and the image of "the youngest and expansive race that became the most numerous and now every other race has to live with them" rapidly gets old. Im yet to see an RPG without those pesky individuals

 

I suspect you haven't seen an RPG without them because some people like them =)

I have a lot of characters I like to bring to life in an RPG, some of them are human, some of them aren't.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Halric

[Joukehainen]

I hope Obsidian gives humans nice bonuses like +1 spell casting level or +1 attack bonus with +1 all saves. Humans mostly populate and dominate the fantasy worlds but other races always have the cool abilities...

 

What are your thoughts on this subject?

 

I agree! I never want to play humans given the choice for anything else because, well, I'm SURROUNDED by humans! There's almost 9 billion of us! Any game that puts humans in should really give them something special to identify them and set them apart so they can "compete" with the more intriguing, unique races.

 

Not sure what this "something special" should be, though. -.- I feel like many games don't try enough with that.

[Zere]

Personally, the best possible thing that can ever happen to an RPG game is to exclude Humans from it! This race is so boring and the image of "the youngest and expansive race that became the most numerous and now every other race has to live with them" rapidly gets old. Im yet to see an RPG without those pesky individuals

But then again, elves are humans with pointy ears, orcs with greenskin and so on.

 

So how about a cRPG in which you play as a insect or somekinda non-humanoid breed?

Edited October 22, 2012 by Zere

[Umberlin]

Personally, the best possible thing that can ever happen to an RPG game is to exclude Humans from it! This race is so boring and the image of "the youngest and expansive race that became the most numerous and now every other race has to live with them" rapidly gets old. Im yet to see an RPG without those pesky individuals

But then again, elves are human with pointy ears, orcs with greenskin and so on.

 

So how about a cRPG in which you play as a insect or somekinda non-humanoid character?

 

Not just Humanoids, but races that are, no matter how you turn it, Human themselves, just with an Elf or Dwarf name and visual applied to what is almost always just a twist on, or inspired by, an actual Human culture with Human or Human-like motivations, practices and beliefs. This is why, prior to race announcement, I called for alternative races that were nothing like Humans, that may as well have been the fantasy equivalent of aliens, in that their way of living/thinking/everything was just unthinkable.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Umberlin

[AGX-17]

Humans shouldn't neccesarily be balanced with the other races, but some bonuses based on their strengths would be nice. In fantasy settings, the humans are usually the culturally most diverse race. They have dozens of cultures, and can more often break the mold than other races, traditionally speaking.

 

Of course, the humans in the world Obsidian is making, might be different. If they are going for the usual, give humans bonuses on ease of multiclassing or otherwise doing things that goes outside his own cultural bounds, but don't give them an arbitrary bonus to balance them with other races. Balancing removes flavour in my opinion.

 

That's another cardinal sin of fantasy and sci-fi writing, that humans are culturally diverse and every other race or species is a national/planetary monoculture. And when humans are culturally diverse, it's always blatantly derivative of real-world cultures but "with a twist!"

[temporalTemptation]

I can think of no in-story justification for why humans would be generic, whilst all others would essentially "like humans, but with this difference". In fact, I think that summarises why I dislike humans being portrayed as sort of a jack of all trades in fantasy RPGs, it encourages other races to be portrayed as gimmicky. Oh, they might be deep and complex, but they still feel cheaper because everything about them is compared to humans. All other races and cultures become "like human but X", which makes one wonder how these races see themselves, each other or humans.

 

It appeals to our arrogance, the idea that we're so diverse and adaptable, that we see the whole picture, unlike these people with their weird and stereotypical way of doing things. And even if you insist that there's a difference between the idea that humans are generic and causing other races to devolve into a "planet of hats" scenario, it's still saying that humans are average, normal, whilst all these other creatures are fantastic. Yes, from our point of view on the other side of the fourth wall, we can see that, but how does it make sense in that setting?

 

Let me put it this way, how do other races see themselves in these settings where every race has their own special thing except humans? How does the dwarf see himself compared to the elf and the human. Basic psychology (admitedly, human psychology; but let's pretend that it applies to all humanoids) tells us that the dwarf would see himself and his people as average, diverse; whilst these elves are all namby-pamby tree-huggers and these humans are... well... what? See, that's the thing, it's so easy to think of your own group (be it clique, subculture, culture, race, whatever) as diverse and filled with individuals, and to think of outsiders as conforming to a certain type. That's what, I think, fantasy writers do when they make humans the cornerstone of their setting. They're saying that, yes, my group (humanity) is diverse and complicated, but these other beings (which are only limited by my imagination) each have their own special property. It's doing one's own creation a disservice, being too complacent to actually come up with complex other races, just making them "humans plus whatever".

 

And if you're still not convinced that humans are average leads to other races falling to the wayside; try to think of it like this. If humans are generic, then all other races could be compared to them, no? They are average across all areas, more or less, they are the bridge between all races. So every other race is one step removed from them. Elves are humans only lighter, nimbler and more magical. Dwarves are humans only tougher, stronger and more... I don't know... obsessed with gold? Anyway, the point is that each of them, being one step away from humans, makes them more human, makes them less alien, less their own thing from the perspective of humans.

 

Now let's say humans had their own quirk. Let's say our "hat" is that we live shorter lives, reproduce quicker and are generally less in control of our emotions. This means that each other race not only lacks those traits (to varying extents) but also has their own set of traits. They're all two steps removed from us and just as they are with each other. Suddenly, each race can see themselves as normal and diverse and can mentally add a "hat" to each other. Of course, as we're all humans playing this, we'll be more likely to favour the human way of seeing things. However, if we were to try and look at the other races, they'd genuinely feel different; we'd be able to see them as something other than altered humans.

 

Mechanically speaking, it would depend on what other races saw as humanity's quirk but, yeah, humans should have something that makes them stand out. It would be too easy to make them the generic everyman; I can see the temptation one would have to do it, but it would weaken the setting as a whole. Sorry for the length of this post, but I've just got opinions on this subject and am trying my hardest to express them as clearly as possible. Hopefully I didn't do too bad a job.

[JFSOCC]

Personally, the best possible thing that can ever happen to an RPG game is to exclude Humans from it! This race is so boring and the image of "the youngest and expansive race that became the most numerous and now every other race has to live with them" rapidly gets old. Im yet to see an RPG without those pesky individuals

that's not the problem of humans, but rather of how they are presented; as the youngest and unwise race. and yes, I always thought it was belligerent to hear. Why can't humans be the wise old species that gets to be 80 years old while the others never make it past 50?

[FlintlockJazz]

Humans suck and must be purged.

 

I mean, uh,nevermind. Humans shouldn't be assumed to be the baseline, we just assume we are because we don't have other sapient races to compare ourselves to. What if, for once the elves are the baseline race or none at all? Perhaps elves are considered more fragile not because they have low health but because humans have high health? As others have said humans are actually quite tough and resilient, we actually used to walk our prey to death...

 

Another reason why I don't want humans as baseline because it tends to cause the other races to become 'klingons': one dimensional races that take on one aspect of humanity, such as the aforementioned klingons all being the honorable warrior personality type, all vulcans being logical, instead of developing unique personalities for each individual like you would with humans.

 

Another thing, I don't want the lore presenting humans as some awesome race that dominates all and is in general fantastic. **** that **** right up. I don't want humanity to be the dominant race, make them share it for once the greedy bastards! I really like how each culture seems to be made up multiple races instead of a separate mono culture for each race, better explains how they all get along!

[zimcub]

Humans shouldn't be assumed to be the baseline, we just assume we are because we don't have other sapient races to compare ourselves to. What if, for once the elves are the baseline race or none at all? Perhaps elves are considered more fragile not because they have low health but because humans have high health? As others have said humans are actually quite tough and resilient, we actually used to walk our prey to death...

But it doesn't matter which race is the baseline, if you plan to make the races balanced.

You can make the elf race be the base line with no bonuses and then humans with +2 con and -2 dex and it's still going to be the same result as using the humans as base and giving elfs +2 dex and -2 con (just a simple example.)

 

The reason humans are used as base line is because it's easier for new players to understand the world they are brought in, not because it's some arrogance thing.

 

Unless you are suggesting that some races should have better bonuses than others, then that's a different story.

Edited October 23, 2012 by zimcub

[ReyVagabond]

Personaly i want a Race system where you selct you race "look", and then you choose your linage to chose your bonuses. Istead of Having half people, A human with a elf mother , is just a human with some elf bonuses,

 

But focusing on Humans, i personaly want Human subraces like in TES.

Redguards are darkskined form Bla.

Nords are Fairkskined from Ble.

Imperials, Bretons, Etc.

Diferent human form diferents parts should have diferent bonuses.

Some resist hunger better, some can fight longer, some can learn spells easier, some have elemental resistences, etc.

 

For example Elves always have sub races like Wood, Moon, Dark.

Why not human?

 

And with somethin like a Linage System you can mix and match bonuses and penalties.

[HansKrSG]

Like in mot RPG i've played, I'm probably going to play a human because they are easier to identify to, especially in a fantastic universe I won't be familiar with on game launch. I would hope that they are well balanced with other species.

 

Also, I disagree that humans have to be the base. In fact, one cool thing about us, is that we are built for extreme physical resistance. Here is an example: We sweat during physical intense physical exercise, this is our way to regulate our body temperature and it allows us to regulate our body temperature while moving, this allows us to run longer distances then other animals who controls body temperatures but breathing (like dogs and cats for example). Those animals can run faster then us but never as long then us (if you are in good physical shape that is). This fact is a serious advantage in a warm dry environment but can prove lethal in cold environment and useless in a very humid environment. SO technically, humans are better at physical resistance in most environment found on earth.

 

so the start point should always be a base which offers no bonus of defects like, how easy it is for me to survive in environment A and why. Lets take "darkvison" for an example. We consider this an advantage because we can't see in the dark, but in the case were they've adapted to see only in the dark, we both can see 50% of the time on the surface, meaning that in reality, we're pretty much equals. If the creature that can see in the dark only lives underground, then yes, it would have an advantage but that creature would live in an environment where everybody else can do the same, cancelling this advantage most of the time because creature who needs light won't be in competing with those who don't like light 99% of the time.

 

TDLR: If a specie really had a significant advantage over the other that is not balanced out by anything, eventually, one will completely dominate the other, either by predation or by breeding them out (in the case of subspecies). That's why I think, logically, all existing species should be equivalent to another and therefore, human should also have bonus.

 

Well trained humans can actually outrun horses at a marathon because of this, and becasue we run upright, we get much better cooling on our whole bodies, something horses, cats and dogs don't. Kangaroos however would outrun even the best marathon runner over short and long distances

[morrow1nd]

well having others that agreeing on humans shouldn't be the dull ''norm'' race really pleases me! (: (according to vote results at least!)

 

which i didnt see at any other games that people having conversation about this in general.

 

And i'm sure Obsidian will take some notice on this subject.

 

A decent budget, lots of ideas and limited time.. Obsidian has enough tools and experience to make this game great. They dont need luck! >=)

Edited October 24, 2012 by morrow1nd

[FlintlockJazz]

Humans shouldn't be assumed to be the baseline, we just assume we are because we don't have other sapient races to compare ourselves to. What if, for once the elves are the baseline race or none at all? Perhaps elves are considered more fragile not because they have low health but because humans have high health? As others have said humans are actually quite tough and resilient, we actually used to walk our prey to death...

But it doesn't matter which race is the baseline, if you plan to make the races balanced.

You can make the elf race be the base line with no bonuses and then humans with +2 con and -2 dex and it's still going to be the same result as using the humans as base and giving elfs +2 dex and -2 con (just a simple example.)

 

The reason humans are used as base line is because it's easier for new players to understand the world they are brought in, not because it's some arrogance thing.

 

Unless you are suggesting that some races should have better bonuses than others, then that's a different story.

 

While you are wrong with how changing the baseline would affect the races (it would at the very least alter which build uses which race) you seem to have missed the main point I was making. But then you seem to have only taken a part of my post and put it out of context to make it look like I'm arguing for something I'm not and then attacked that, so I really can't be bothered to argue it with you.

Edited October 24, 2012 by FlintlockJazz