Religion

[Kane_Severance]

One of the things that has bugged me about the recent games is the lack of importance your faith has on the story. In NWN2, for example, you had a great selection of Forgotten Realms deities to choose from, all with great flavor and background. Once you created your character, however, that choice no longer mattered other than mechanically.

 

Mysteries of Westgate offered some unique options if you worshiped Shar, but on the whole it was fairly neglected. Granted the Forgotten Realms pantheon was a bit overpopulated to have unique questlines for all of those deities, but Project Eternity won't have nearly as many (I hope).

 

I felt it was a shame that a cleric of Mystra was treated no differently than a cleric of Lathander. I hope that if you choose a faith in character creation, that has some affect on how the world reacts to you, especially if you're a priest of that religion.

 

It'd also be nice to allow you to start without a faith, then perhaps convert to one or even between religions in game through dialog. I would love to roleplay a jaded warrior who finds faith, or a priest of one faith being swayed or corrupted to a different belief system.

 

That may be difficult to implement, but at the very least, I hope if we encounter a temple or followers of our faith that they recognize and respond to that. Even more interesting would be if a diametrically opposed or rival faith responded negatively to our chosen deity.

 

Edit: To be clear, I don't think the game needs to revolve around faith. I just think, as the developers have put it, if you give us the choice, make it meaningful. Even an atheist/agnostic should be reacted to differently in the game. Temples may see them as opportunities to gain new followers.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Kane_Severance

[Gromnir]

One of the things that has bugged me about the recent games is the lack of importance your faith has on the story. In NWN2, for example, you had a great selection of Forgotten Realms deities to choose from, all with great flavor and background. Once you created your character, however, that choice no longer mattered other than mechanically.

 

 

 

your observation identifies at least part o' the problem. the "great selection" made it kinda impractical for developers to respond to your choice of deities in those forgotten realms games.

 

our issue with game religion is different than yours, although you mentioned many times. faith is not a factor in the crpgs you mention... or any other we can immediate recollect. there was some lip-service played to questions of faith in dragon age, but that is as close as we can come without more thought. gods with tangible manifestations o' powhaz is an unfortunate trope. chrisA really wanna do some meaningful trope bashing? use faith in pe.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Supposedly, Mask of the Betrayer had some changed dialogue if your character was a Priest of Kelemvor.

[Gromnir]

Supposedly, Mask of the Betrayer had some changed dialogue if your character was a Priest of Kelemvor.

 

indeed it did. most of the games mentioned had some infrequent bits o' flavor related to some o' the deity choices. very few.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Veeno]

To be clear, I don't think the game needs to revolve around faith.

 

Like some others, right? Right?

 

*crickets chirping*

 

Oh nevermind.

[Kane_Severance]

the "great selection" made it kinda impractical for developers to respond to your choice of deities in those forgotten realms games.

 

Yeah, I mentioned the fact that the FR pantheon is really to numerous to do justice to in a game, but PE does not have that problem.

 

What I meant by "great selection" was that these gods were varied with decent write ups and flavor, but they were hollow because in game you only saw 5% of them represented.

 

If your character is a priest or a paladin then faith is a major part of your character. Other characters can be devout as well, but for a priest's religion not to come into play at all in a game is unfathomable.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Kane_Severance

[DocDoomII]

I understand what you are saying, but the list is growing a bit too much:

 

1-Low intelligence

2-Reputation (with factions)

3-Background

4-Race

5-Gender

6-Class

7-Religion

 

1, 2, 3 and 4 should be already accounted for, if I'm not mistaken. I surely have hopes for 5.

6 and 7 can be left out if it gets too much of a burden to implement.

 

 

That's my opinion, obviously.

Edited October 20, 2012 by DocDoomII

[Kane_Severance]

I understand what you are saying, but the list is growing a bit too much:

 

1-Low intelligence

2-Reputation (with factions)

3-Background

4-Race

5-Gender

6-Class

7-Religion

 

1, 2, 3 and 4 should be already accounted for, if I'm not mistaken. I surely have hopes for 5.

6 and 7 can be left out if it gets too much of a burden to implement.

 

I don't think every dialogue should care about your religion, but encounters with priests, temples and such most certainly should.

[Nonek]

Considering the recent events north of Godhammer citadel, i'm thinking matters of faith will be tremendously important.

 

As I remember I got a nice shield in Mask of the Betrayer for following Chauntea.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

My view: fewer religions, more responsiveness to your religion. If it takes a card from NWN2 and even allows for selecting our faith, which is hardly clear, then no list of twenty gods or something that has no impact on gameplay. Instead, lets say a list of three or four gods/religions/whatever (preferably including 'non-believer') which has various dialogues from people reacting to it, or changes in your own dialogue.

 

Diversity in religious practice would also be welcome. A religious faith which is strictly regimented like the Catholic church alongside a faith which has no hierarchy at all, a religious faith which is intolerant of opposing views and a religious view which does not judge other faiths, and so forth.

 

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

[rjshae]

If it's a pantheon, wouldn't you just be picking your favored deity? Prior to monotheism, everybody pretty much worshiped multiple deities. I don't know that having 'a' religion is necessarily appropriate, unless you're a priest.

 

 

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

 

Actually, I think you do. What would you consider a deity that demands blood sacrifice in order for crops to flourish?

Edited October 20, 2012 by rjshae

[Kane_Severance]

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

 

I think they should stick to subjective morality. No one would worship a god who is malevolent against all humanity, but someone who's a burglar or a cheat may worship a god of lies and secrets. An assassin or a noble plotting such may worship a god of murder and violent death. Gods that seek to bring downfall to humanity make little sense, but those that represent advancing your own goals at the expense of others would certainly find followers.

 

It's the difference between mustache twirling caricature evil and more realistic self advancement "evil". I'm against the first and fine with the second in RPGs.

[eselle28]

I'm expecting that there will be at least some dialogues related to religion. The lore update indicates that some places outlaw the worship of certain gods. If you go singing the praises of Eothas in the Dyrwood or of Magran in Readceras, I'm assuming that there will be consequences.

 

I don't think the game needs to be automatically sensitive to religious belief, though. It's not as if you can tell most people's religous beliefs at a glance, though I suppose people might stereotype them based on a character's chosen background. Generally, though, that seems like something that could be done by allowing religious belief to factor into dialogue choices.

[rjshae]

It might be interesting for the game to include belief totems; something that you can pick up at a temple for a donation, like a symbol or a book of lore. If you carry it around for a while (in a special equipment slot?) then you get a modest XP bonus and some sort of benefit from the priests of that faith. Maybe a +1 skill luck bonus appropriate to the deity? The designers would have to balance it out somehow. Perhaps just three totem slots per character and they become permanent once you get the XP bonus?

Edited October 21, 2012 by rjshae

[Gyor]

I think they'll be at least 7-15 choices for religion. I also think the religions may come in different forms. One might be based on the Dyrwood's worship of Megran, another based on Eothos in Readcas. A third might be based around the Death God, a fourth around an Orlan patheon, a fifth might not be based on Gods at all, just like some rl religions aren't, and sixth might worship the Eldar Gods, and so on. Maybe one based on Necromatic research.

[Gromnir]

 

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

 

historically, you are incorrect. is more than a few malevolent gods in real world mythology that followers attempt to placate. sedna is a good example if you is wanting am example.

 

...

 

am hesitant to mention as it no doubt will cause problems. is a good argument that the judeo-christian God were a creation of jewish scholars as kinda a metaphor for chaos of the universe. ever read some old testament stuff and wonder why G seemed like such a wanker?

 

anywho... lots of malevolent gods in rl mythology who gots "worshipers."

 

HA! Good Fun!

[eselle28]

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

 

historically, you are incorrect. is more than a few malevolent gods in real world mythology that followers attempt to placate. sedna is a good example if you is wanting am example.

 

...

 

am hesitant to mention as it no doubt will cause problems. is a good argument that the judeo-christian God were a creation of jewish scholars as kinda a metaphor for chaos of the universe. ever read some old testament stuff and wonder why G seemed like such a wanker?

 

anywho... lots of malevolent gods in rl mythology who gots "worshipers."

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I think my objection to "evil" gods and religions is more the implementation of them. I think it's entirely realistic to have worshippers who fear and try to appease an evil deity, or perhaps some who try to channel that deity's power. It's just that when translated into games, that sometimes comes across as an entire group of people who are, "EVIL EVIL EVIL KILL KILL KILL DESTRUCTION!" and who don't seem to have any room in their ideology for things like growing crops and recommending that members restrict their EVIL EVIL activities to socially acceptable targets rather than slaughtering all their neighbors. That's not going to work in any society with a lifespan longer than a typical doomsday cult. If the worship of an evil god could be presented in a more nuanced manner, I wouldn't have an issue with it.

[UncleBourbon]

I like the idea, but also think the list of categories is getting a bit long - I'd rather have fewer character traits and bigger impact, but I don't think there is some direct ratio. I was always partial to having my characters worship Ao, with the expectation of minor impact. I think maybe having a reasonable number of choices, each with a few different triggers might work. That, or a sort of bulk categorisation - I'm thinking along the lines of a split pantheon, maybe with two or three "major" deities, and a few "lesser" deities (still worshipped and such, but subserviant to) that are associated with them. This was, the reactions could be based upon the larger divisions. A bit of a compromise that may or may not work, depending on the setting.

 

That said, I certainly hope there are circumstances where you can honor Erothas, and perhaps suffer for it in areas, as that is forbidden in parts - I just want it implemented better/differently than the nordic deity in Skyrim.

[eselle28]

I like the idea, but also think the list of categories is getting a bit long - I'd rather have fewer character traits and bigger impact, but I don't think there is some direct ratio. I was always partial to having my characters worship Ao, with the expectation of minor impact. I think maybe having a reasonable number of choices, each with a few different triggers might work. That, or a sort of bulk categorisation - I'm thinking along the lines of a split pantheon, maybe with two or three "major" deities, and a few "lesser" deities (still worshipped and such, but subserviant to) that are associated with them. This was, the reactions could be based upon the larger divisions. A bit of a compromise that may or may not work, depending on the setting.

 

That's an interesting idea. I was picturing a system more along the lines of characters in a particular region only having specific triggers from specific religions. For instance, that character and most people in that area follow God A, tolerate but have some stereotypes about God B, are hostile toward the worshippers of God C, and regard followers of other gods or non-believers with a more generic, "Oh, that's nice," or "Oh, that's kind of weird," reaction. If you go to another part of the world, people might be more familiar with God D or E and have stronger opinions on the matter.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Actually, I think you do. What would you consider a deity that demands blood sacrifice in order for crops to flourish?

 

I would call that a 'non-good' religion. The god still makes the crops flourish after a suitable sacrifice, no?

 

Now, show me the historical religions with followers who activately tried to sabotage the crops. Who try and make as many people starve because its the God of Famine or some such.

 

Forgotten Realms has gods who represent like Tyranny and Poison and so forth. Note that people aren't presented as offering things to the God of Tyranny to prevent Tyranny; his followers worship him to spread tyranny and go around spreading hatred and evil, explictly. That's idiotic.

[Roxane]

I would love to see that one's religion actually matters beyond the spells mechanics. If it means to have a narrower choice of deity to achieve it, let's do it.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

 

historically, you are incorrect. is more than a few malevolent gods in real world mythology that followers attempt to placate. sedna is a good example if you is wanting am example.

 

...

 

am hesitant to mention as it no doubt will cause problems. is a good argument that the judeo-christian God were a creation of jewish scholars as kinda a metaphor for chaos of the universe. ever read some old testament stuff and wonder why G seemed like such a wanker?

 

anywho... lots of malevolent gods in rl mythology who gots "worshipers."

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The difference between an 'evil religion' and a religion in which the god or gods in question come across as ***holes is important. Almost all 'real world' religions of any significance fall into the latter category. You don't worship the God because he's malevolent and go around doing horrible things for him so as to make the world that much worse; you fear him and try to appease him so he won't turn his malevolence on you.

 

Most RPG 'evil' religions depict followers who have basically embraced being a malevolent ***hole as a way and philosophy of life, actively working to make the world a worse place to live.

[UncleBourbon]

And please, no 'evil' religions. Only an idiot worships a god they believe to be actively malevolent. I really hope I don't have to explain why.

 

historically, you are incorrect. is more than a few malevolent gods in real world mythology that followers attempt to placate. sedna is a good example if you is wanting am example.

 

...

 

am hesitant to mention as it no doubt will cause problems. is a good argument that the judeo-christian God were a creation of jewish scholars as kinda a metaphor for chaos of the universe. ever read some old testament stuff and wonder why G seemed like such a wanker?

 

anywho... lots of malevolent gods in rl mythology who gots "worshipers."

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The difference between an 'evil religion' and a religion in which the god or gods in question come across as ***holes is important. Almost all 'real world' religions of any significance fall into the latter category. You don't worship the God because he's malevolent and go around doing horrible things for him so as to make the world that much worse; you fear him and try to appease him so he won't turn his malevolence on you.

 

Most RPG 'evil' religions depict followers who have basically embraced being a malevolent ***hole as a way and philosophy of life, actively working to make the world a worse place to live.

 

Or better yet, several "Evil" religions presented in fantasy/grimdark settings are basically some greater, deity-like power that possesses or actively corrupts their followers. This means it isn't so much some illogical individuals burning their crops to worship the god of starvation, but more along the lines of a few individuals being indoctrinated/persuaded by a cult, going through a few ceremonies, and eventually winding up with little to no will or self control, or at least little to no independent will.

[Gyor]

Oh I can see alot of real life people following a God like Bane, his basically just a divine dictator and RL mortal ones have plenty of followers. Bane promises rewards for service and attracts those that beleave might makes right. There's also the possiblity of reeducation camps and the like.

 

Asmodeaous, The Archdevil God of Sin on the other hand is less believable. Give me your soul so I can torture you forever isn't believable. Although if one is convinced the devils are higher beings and service to Asmodeaus will after a short time of torture turn you into one then I can see some fools agreeing.

 

 

[fallendrgmaster]

I would like to see this, I usually play as a Paladin and would love to see the religion I choose influce or change options in some cases.

 

On that note though conversations with the priests or others should not start knowing you worship their diety, though this might make sense for a priest/paladin displaying their holy symbol, I don't believe if I'm a fighter every priest of my religion just knows I worship their diety. Make it an option to annouce your affliation if you had selected it during creation.

 

it would also be interesting if the churches were one of the groups with which you could earn reputation with, though I would not make the rewards of such rep powerful so people would not feel like they had to join a church or particpate. Though on that note if you could earn rep with a church thru quests for discounts on services or the like and being a member merely boosted said repuation that would seem fair to those who choose not to worship a diety.