The "Unofficial" P.E. Relationship/Romance thread

[Crusty]

Jasede cannot into single posts.

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by Crusty

[Neverwhere]

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

Because this is not a book.

I'm sick of railroaded stories in videogames. If Project Eternity is going to be like that then the developers should warn us. At least I would stop worrying about this game and I'd look somewhere else for a real role playing experience.

Since this is an RPG I want to be in charge of what my character does and feels. I want to be able to decide if a love story fits the character I'm playing or not, exactly like I want to be able to decide if I'm good or bad, chaotic or lawful, altruistic or individualist etc.

 

Let's say that in the beginning of the story my character is happily married. The plt starts and after a painful event my wife gets killed. I want to have the chance to decide if my character finds the strength to move on (and finds another one to love) or keeps mourning his true love forever. This is roleplaying, not some ready-made experience you have to swallow as it is or screw off.

 

No. Roleplaying is about making the best of a range of choices that is inherently limited. When playing a pen and paper game, you do not expect the GM to come up with a whole new adventure in the middle of a session, because "your character wouldn't act that way". You suck it up and make the best of it.

 

By the same token, I'm entirely happy to be railroaded in a CRPG if the story it tells is worth it. Shame that so many are not.

[jarpie]

I actually have roleplayed in NWN server for 3-4 years and it was helluva lot of fun coming up different kind of characters with different kind of personalities and backgrounds. It's a whole different experience than playing a set character written by a professional writer but not superior per se.

[evdk]

The arguments here keep going around in circles.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU

 

This thread in a nutshell.

Because new people keep coming in providing "fresh" opinions. Sadly, they are rather similar to those that came before several times.

[CrazyPea]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

I'm not saying every relationshi[ in the game has to be romantic. What I am saying is that relationships drive the narrative and that romantic relationships have can drive the the narrative too. You mentioned 3 movies in your post - for those three, I gave you thousands that do include romantic relationships and are better for it - everything from Casablanca, the 39 steps (hitch**** original), to The Empire strikes back (... well,,, apart from the whole brother/sister kiss - ewww), The dark Knight (the dilema of bats chosing between his love and Harvey dent). I could list many more...

 

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

If it makes a more emersive, enjoyable experience, why shouldn't it? This is a role-playing game, emphasis on ROLE. The player 'lives' the life of their character. Life generally contains romance and realtionships, so we want our game character to experience those facets of life. Why should this game in particular? Because is a narrative driven game and narratives are driven by the relationships between people. Yes, not every game/book/movie, etc has romance, but it tends to be the exception rather than the norm, the reason being that romances usually enhance the narrative (see the examples I've already given).

 

 

And WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?

Because he's been repeating the same argument over and over without it ever being seriously challenged so he therefore correctly assumes you must be deaf.

I read your post. You don't want a CRPG - you want a Japanese life sim. This isn't that kind of game. RPGs aren't about "experiencing facets of life". They are and have always been about killing ****, experiencing a cool story, exploring a new world and making numbers go up. They're about making meaningful choices, not petty life-simulation.

 

Lol, No I don't want a Japanese life simulator - I've been playing both pen and paper and computer RPGs for 30 years and while combat has all been central to the mechanics of a game, it's not what it's all about. Planescape Torment, for example, could be completed with very little combat. In the P+P version of Call of Cthulu, the last thing you wanted to do was get in a fight. Combat is an element of the game - a fun one, but it's not the be all and end all.

 

Oh. I see what you did there - my bad

[HereticSaint]

Yeah but you see that's the point. Trying to appease to every demographic doesn't make anything more mature or deeper. It takes a feeling like romantic love and turns it into choose your own adventure minigame. Imagine if every movie had alternatives about every romantic relationship in them.

 

But an rpg is not a movie. It is essentially a "chooce your own adventure" and if you want to break apart aspects of it, they're essentially minigames.

Exploration minigame, puzzle minigame, combat minigame, discussion minigame, stronghold minigame, romance minigame.

 

I don't want an rpg where this glorious auteur has thought up the awesome plot you take upon, your romantic love story and the choices you make,

and then railroads you all the way down until the most awesome ending.

 

That can work just fine in a shooter or semi-rpg like titan quest or IWD. But if it's an RPG I want to play a role and make the choices.

So where is the maturity in a romance minigame? Where is the depth?

 

Nobody "railroads" you. Use that word in the appropriate forums, BSN and bethesda's forums,

or for the appropriate games and their developers.

 

You are an active participant in the narrative not its god. All the choices have to make sense within the narrative.

 

It's funny, because you post vehemently about how romances shouldn't be in the game, then claim those who oppose you are, "wanting to be God".

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Great argument! Now try a real one and not something that is ad hominem. I'm not the narrative's god, but romance(and any other literary device) has to somehow be used by the plot, cause romance isn't just a minigame. It, like any other relationship(friendship, rivalry etc), should affect the plot through character progression. If that doesn't affect the plot, then it's wasted space, the main(and possibly the other person) remain static bricks. Romance in stories isn't combat that can be shown through mechanics and graphics, it's a plot device.

 

Sorry, but pointing out things you've said in the past isn't ad hominem.

 

Other than that I've never said anything that I meant opposing what you said in this post, so, awesome!

[FlintlockJazz]

 

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

Because this is not a book.

I'm sick of railroaded stories in videogames. If Project Eternity is going to be like that then the developers should warn us. At least I would stop worrying about this game and I'd look somewhere else for a real role playing experience.

Since this is an RPG I want to be in charge of what my character does and feels. I want to be able to decide if a love story fits the character I'm playing or not, exactly like I want to be able to decide if I'm good or bad, chaotic or lawful, altruistic or individualist etc.

 

Let's say that in the beginning of the story my character is happily married. The plt starts and after a painful event my wife gets killed. I want to have the chance to decide if my character finds the strength to move on (and finds another one to love) or keeps mourning his true love forever. This is roleplaying, not some ready-made experience you have to swallow as it is or screw off.

 

You know, I find this hilarious and indicative of this thread: Jarpie actually started off claiming that there are books without romance in because proromancers were saying all good stories had romance in them, now we are at the stage that its reversed and people are arguing that just because some books don't have romance in doesn't mean it can't and that its a game not a book and so shouldn't be compared. This argument truly has come full circle, hilarious really...

[Fear]

Books, films, and games to some extent are mostly vicarious entertainment to me. They allow me to experience something I otherwise could NOT.

That's the main reason why I am not overly partial to romances in my content. It seems redundant in a way. (At the same time I see how others are fond of them of course.)

Though even so I like to write romantic stories in my pastime and I have made a point of the emotional factor and the developing relationship to be a focal point of the narrative rather than plain cliffnotes, and give them months or even years to spark, flower and blossom before thriving - or withering and dying. Love on first sight is quite implausible in my experience, at least when you look at how long it takes for those relationships to break up again; and gets real old real fast. (Congrats to those who did manage to make it work, of course.)

 

Yet how many games, be they deep story-driven RPGs or casual action flicks, take place over the course of several years (ingame time of course)? Most of those romances I see are developed over the course of less than three dates.. and you know what is being said if you give in before the third one. And then you get a meaningless one-night-stand. Well done to me would mean that they have some relevance to the overall story arc. Though what most here want seems to be as aptly described just that - a minigame.

Inter-human relationships deserve better than that. At least in a 'perfect' world. Some even suggested to have them entirely detached from the actual plot as in Mass Effect when the story (what little there was) would constantly grind to a halt so you can muck around with your potential love interests on the ship. Or not. It's your choice! (But no consequences.)

 

And after everything is over? No further mention. Doesn't that help to make them seem even more vapid and empty. Especially if you switch partners in the sequels without anyone even caring to comment on that.

 

An anti-example might be Vampire - The Masquerade REDEMPTION. Yeah, nobody remembers that one, do they? It wasn't great, it could have done a lot better, but at the core of it, it is a story about love that seems doomed from the start, yet endures hardships, countless centuries, and in effect even death itself. Every action is motivated by it.

 

So if you're having these kinds of events/activities, make them.. hard to get.. realistic. Why not even platonic, for a change? Meaningful. Lasting. Until you aren't ready to put up with that.. you.. well.. I don't know.

 

But even that was probably brought forth in previous ramblings that I can't read due to my ADD, so how about closure if we just all agree that Christopher Walken is awesome?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Fear

[JohanKris]

Romance in a cRPG is like the Romance in an Hollywood action movie, it is there for no more than a reason to have something to look at. Well, in the RPG is more about validation for the player, but I won't delve into that.

 

As long as you have companions any form of relationship is only a good thing in giving them personality. Please note that I with "relationship" don't mean "Romance with a sex scene near game end". Baldurs gate if anything did something different in how it showed companions that was in a relationship with each other, not the PC. That gave them personality and can be used to tie into the plot. Imagine having two lovers in your party and one of them dies? Then the others should possibly become bitter or even leave the group. Dynamics like that is something I like. Or have someone talk about his parents that he send all his loot too, have two companions that are brothers and try to one-up each other, maybe even with seducing the player character and then not caring about you. I would find that hilarious, but I am not sure everyone here have the mental fortitude to go through that, even if it is a realistic scenario.

 

For a romance with the player character being in it has to be really well-written and tied into the world and possibly plot. Not some strange mini-game were you agree to everything they say (which is how most romances I seen has been) with characters that have something sad to tell you, but only after you agreed to them for a while.

 

But if you (whoever really really wants romances in the game) really is looking for games with romance I would point out that you would be much better off going for a game that specialises in that. A game that is all about that and can make a real build up and even make it romantic (not having... lets call him "Karth" dump emotional problems on you in a ****pit) with setting and situation. If nothing else, check the Japanese market, they got plenty of that stuff.

[Rahelron]

So, have any of the forum members found each other and experienced true love? or the bad touch?

 

This is what this thread is about, right? (Cyberdating)

 

Let me extrapolate from your words. You are pretty much saying: "If an RPG includes romance stories than it lets the player indulge on hedonistic love fantasies (or, even worse, sex fantasies). This might be good to make horny teenagers buy the game, but since this is a Kickstarter fund project we want something more mature."

 

Let me give you the news: pretty much every story driven game contain some sort of hedonistic gratification for the player. An example? Call of Duty is built around the purpose of making the player feel like a badass, the only one who can save the world. Ok, if we talk about the shooters genre that is pretty obvious, but I can assure you that you can apply the same kind of reasoning for each and every storydriven game, even the most mature. Every western RPG is centered around making the player identify himself with the main character of the story. It's done mostly with customization: you can choose your character's race, its appearence, what he is good at (his class and attributes) and so on. Then you take control of it, it does exactly what you tell him to do. This strengthens the identification even more. You become the character you're playing and that character in some way becomes you.

 

So you end up projecting yourself in a character that is able to take control of his life, overcome the odds and, in the end, reach his goal, whatever it is. This is a great way to give the player gratification, to make him feel good with himself and to increase his self-respect. And the interesting thing is that the game doesn't need to be a power hungry fantasy to exert this effect on the player. Every goal can be good, even becoming a chef in a resturant or helping someone win his struggle agains alcohol.

 

So: you think that romance stories in videogames are childish? Know that RPG games are childish as a whole. And they couldn't be different, because it's enbedded in the relationship between the player and the character he controls. Videogames are interactive experiences and the very core of story-driven interactive experiences is the identification between the player and the character he controls. Developers can try to make this relationship less intimate by forcing the player to control different characters during the course of the playthrough, or by forcing the player to control a party and not just one single character, but this doesn't prevent the ego-stroking gratification effect from happening. In those cases the identification process stops but then the player fstarts feeling like a deus-ex-machina, able to make things right by controlling the actions of a bunch of characters, just like a puppet-master would.

 

Don't blame romances for being an way to give ego-stroking gratification to the player. Blame the RPG genre as a whole.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Rahelron

[HereticSaint]

Romance in a cRPG is like the Romance in an Hollywood action movie, it is there for no more than a reason to have something to look at. Well, in the RPG is more about validation for the player, but I won't delve into that.

 

As long as you have companions any form of relationship is only a good thing in giving them personality. Please note that I with "relationship" don't mean "Romance with a sex scene near game end". Baldurs gate if anything did something different in how it showed companions that was in a relationship with each other, not the PC. That gave them personality and can be used to tie into the plot. Imagine having two lovers in your party and one of them dies? Then the others should possibly become bitter or even leave the group. Dynamics like that is something I like. Or have someone talk about his parents that he send all his loot too, have two companions that are brothers and try to one-up each other, maybe even with seducing the player character and then not caring about you. I would find that hilarious, but I am not sure everyone here have the mental fortitude to go through that, even if it is a realistic scenario.

 

For a romance with the player character being in it has to be really well-written and tied into the world and possibly plot. Not some strange mini-game were you agree to everything they say (which is how most romances I seen has been) with characters that have something sad to tell you, but only after you agreed to them for a while.

 

But if you (whoever really really wants romances in the game) really is looking for games with romance I would point out that you would be much better off going for a game that specialises in that. A game that is all about that and can make a real build up and even make it romantic (not having... lets call him "Karth" dump emotional problems on you in a ****pit) with setting and situation. If nothing else, check the Japanese market, they got plenty of that stuff.

 

Japanese dating sims hardly have emotional depth and good story telling. They are almost always even more shallow than the Mass Effect romances people around here seem to hate so much. Simply going, "well, if you want this, go play this game" is rather silly, considering the game is in the very early process of being made and pretty much nothing is known about the plot and only vague amounts about the actual world setting. They could very well decide romance be tied into the story, or not. Either way I'm supportive of that if it isn't decided by the forums.

 

Which again, may seem funny considering I am posting my opinion about it, but it's not my nature to rely on chance, so on the off chance they do draw even a miniscule amount of feedback from these topics, again, I want to make sure they understand there aren't people on just one side of the fence.

 

That being said, having romance between party members is something that would interest me as well. Just like many other aspects of story telling, including PC-NPC relationships which is why it shouldn't just be cut and dry, 'no PC-NPC romances' from some random person on the forums, but rather the people making Project Eternity themselves.

[CrazyPea]

Romance in a cRPG is like the Romance in an Hollywood action movie, it is there for no more than a reason to have something to look at. Well, in the RPG is more about validation for the player, but I won't delve into that.

 

As long as you have companions any form of relationship is only a good thing in giving them personality. Please note that I with "relationship" don't mean "Romance with a sex scene near game end". Baldurs gate if anything did something different in how it showed companions that was in a relationship with each other, not the PC. That gave them personality and can be used to tie into the plot. Imagine having two lovers in your party and one of them dies? Then the others should possibly become bitter or even leave the group. Dynamics like that is something I like. Or have someone talk about his parents that he send all his loot too, have two companions that are brothers and try to one-up each other, maybe even with seducing the player character and then not caring about you. I would find that hilarious, but I am not sure everyone here have the mental fortitude to go through that, even if it is a realistic scenario.

 

For a romance with the player character being in it has to be really well-written and tied into the world and possibly plot. Not some strange mini-game were you agree to everything they say (which is how most romances I seen has been) with characters that have something sad to tell you, but only after you agreed to them for a while.

 

But if you (whoever really really wants romances in the game) really is looking for games with romance I would point out that you would be much better off going for a game that specialises in that. A game that is all about that and can make a real build up and even make it romantic (not having... lets call him "Karth" dump emotional problems on you in a ****pit) with setting and situation. If nothing else, check the Japanese market, they got plenty of that stuff.

 

Liked everything you said apart from the last paragrapgh. I want a game wih an amazing story, meaningful relationships and characterisation (and yes, some romance) and good solid combat - Mask of the betrayer pretty much sums it up to me.

[Shevek]

Honestly, the easiest way to have romances in these games without having the pitfalls of having 1/2 of party joinable npcs wanting to get in your pants is not to have party romances. Instead, avoid the entire thing and allow various nonparty npcs to be romancable. Perhaps depending on race or other character creation options, the player can select to ALREADY be involved with a certain nonjoinable npc (what if you were ALREADY married and had a family when you started?) - if they can work it into the story, that might be alright. You could have "romances" range from base and torrid to deep and fulfilling. You could even have more than one and have all the Jerry Springer drama you want result from it. All of this can occur OUTSIDE the party where the player must actively choose to go off and persue it. This gives romance folks all the options they want while not turning the game into a Danielle Steele novel for the rest of us who would perfer not to have our party turned into a bunch of hormone driven high school kids.

[Umberlin]

I can live without romances. I can live with well done romances. If they're not in, oh well. If they are in, I'd hope they'd be complex and intelligent - engaging things that didn't reduce companions to player character obsessed nit wits. In the end I'm more concerned about the quality of the overall game. Viconia was a decent enough character, and the player could, potentially, become close to her, but the things that made the character and dialogues with the character enjoyable . . . were still there even without the potential. So, again, if it's there, I'm fine with it as long as the quality is there. If it's not there, oh well.

 

For that matter I could care less about the types of romances; straight, bi, gay, lesbian transgender - I don't care about such things being present or about them being absent. I care that whatever Obsidian does. is done well. What is present should be done well. If they don't think they can do it well, they should leave it out.

[HereticSaint]

Honestly, the easiest way to have romances in these games without having the pitfalls of having 1/2 of party joinable npcs wanting to get in your pants is not to have party romances. Instead, avoid the entire thing and allow various nonparty npcs to be romancable. Perhaps depending on race or other character creation options, the player can select to ALREADY be involved with a certain nonjoinable npc (what if you were ALREADY married and had a family when you started?) - if they can work it into the story, that might be alright. You could have "romances" range from base and torrid to deep and fulfilling. You could even have more than one and have all the Jerry Springer drama you want result from it. All of this can occur OUTSIDE the party where the player must actively choose to go off and persue it. This gives romance folks all the options they want while not turning the game into a Danielle Steele novel for the rest of us who would perfer not to have our party turned into a bunch of hormone driven high school kids.

 

This doesn't give people who want romances, "all the options they could desire". I'm not saying they should, either. However, I much prefer someone who would travel with me and share in the lush experiences of such an adventure, basically, actually create a meaningful bond with due to all you've gone through. Rather than some random NPC homebody who sits at home waiting to give me a **** job and supper before I go back out to do, 'big boy work'.

 

In fact, the exact type of romance you are describing is actually what a lot of people from both sides would absolutely hate...

Edited October 19, 2012 by HereticSaint

[jarpie]

Books, films, and games to some extent are mostly vicarious entertainment to me. They allow me to experience something I otherwise could NOT.

That's the main reason why I am not overly partial to romances in my content. It seems redundant in a way. (At the same time I see how others are fond of them of course.)

Though even so I like to write romantic stories in my pastime and I have made a point of the emotional factor and the developing relationship to be a focal point of the narrative rather than plain cliffnotes, and give them months or even years to spark, flower and blossom before thriving - or withering and dying. Love on first sight is quite implausible in my experience, at least when you look at how long it takes for those relationships to break up again; and gets real old real fast. (Congrats to those who did manage to make it work, of course.)

 

Yet how many games, be they deep story-driven RPGs or casual action flicks, take place over the course of several years (ingame time of course)? Most of those romances I see are developed over the course of less than three dates.. and you know what is being said if you give in before the third one. And then you get a meaningless one-night-stand. Well done to me would mean that they have some relevance to the overall story arc. Though what most here want seems to be as aptly described just that - a minigame.

Inter-human relationships deserve better than that. At least in a 'perfect' world. Some even suggested to have them entirely detached from the actual plot as in Mass Effect when the story (what little there was) would constantly grind to a halt so you can muck around with your potential love interests on the ship. Or not. It's your choice! (But no consequences.)

 

And after everything is over? No further mention. Doesn't that help to make them seem even more vapid and empty. Especially if you switch partners in the sequels without anyone even caring to comment on that.

 

An anti-example might be Vampire - The Masquerade REDEMPTION. Yeah, nobody remembers that one, do they? It wasn't great, it could have done a lot better, but at the core of it, it is a story about love that seems doomed from the start, yet endures hardships, countless centuries, and in effect even death itself. Every action is motivated by it.

 

So if you're having these kinds of events/activities, make them.. hard to get.. realistic. Why not even platonic, for a change? Meaningful. Lasting. Until you aren't ready to put up with that.. you.. well.. I don't know.

 

But even that was probably brought forth in previous ramblings that I can't read due to my ADD, so how about closure if we just all agree that Christopher Walken is awesome?

 

Bravo, great posting.

[Shevek]

This doesn't give people who want romances, "all the options they could desire". I'm not saying they should, either. However, I much prefer someone who would travel with me and share in the lush experiences of such an adventure, basically, actually create a meaningful bond with due to all you've gone through. Rather than some random NPC homebody who sits at home waiting to give me a **** job and supper before I go back out to do, 'big boy work'.

 

In fact, the exact type of romance you are describing is actually what a lot of people from both sides would absolutely hate...

 

So, lemme get this straight... you are saying the only way to build a meaningful romantic bond is to go on quests to kill monsters together?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Shevek

[JohanKris]

But if you (whoever really really wants romances in the game) really is looking for games with romance I would point out that you would be much better off going for a game that specialises in that. A game that is all about that and can make a real build up and even make it romantic (not having... lets call him "Karth" dump emotional problems on you in a ****pit) with setting and situation. If nothing else, check the Japanese market, they got plenty of that stuff.

 

Liked everything you said apart from the last paragrapgh. I want a game wih an amazing story, meaningful relationships and characterisation (and yes, some romance) and good solid combat - Mask of the betrayer pretty much sums it up to me.

 

Well, that is more of a suggestion (to try a game focused on romance). It is hard to get some really satisfying or well-made romance in a RPG were it is more of a afterthought or a side-quest. Personally I will praise the writers for what I think is well written and critize them for what I think is poor. Despite it flaws, the only romance I liked in a game was Bastila Shan in KOTOR, but that might have been due to my old crush on princess Leia and that emotional connection more than how well written it was.

 

Japanese dating sims hardly have emotional depth and good story telling. They are almost always even more shallow than the Mass Effect romances people around here seem to hate so much.

 

I can't testify about the Jap games, but that market is huge. I seen it, I been there. I suspect that more than shallow they follow a formula and a way of Romance (and characters) that don't connect well with westerners. It is strange no western games like this have been made, I see there might be potential/customers for it.

 

Simply going, "well, if you want this, go play this game" is rather silly,

 

Au contrarie! See, I didn't tell you/someone to go play a RPG with romance instead of asking this one to have Romance. I suggested you would go look for a game spezialised for that feature as that might be something that fits your wants. This is the comparison to an action movie with a romance subplot and a romantic movie. People don't watch a action movie for the romantic subplot, just like an RPG isn't played because a romantic subplot. If that is the most important part, then you should probably try for the thing that really is about it. That is not to say a romantic sub-plot have no place, but we should treat as it is, a small and overal unimportant part of the experience.

 

considering the game is in the very early process of being made and pretty much nothing is known about the plot and only vague amounts about the actual world setting. They could very well decide romance be tied into the story, or not. Either way I'm supportive of that if it isn't decided by the forums.

 

And this I would not disagree with, although it is often best to have something as this optional. Some players might be put off if the plot is heavily around a romance. Still, it might give a great experience even if your heart is made of obsidian. I said nothing telling them to do this or that, just that I want it well-written.

[CrazyPea]

Honestly, the easiest way to have romances in these games without having the pitfalls of having 1/2 of party joinable npcs wanting to get in your pants is not to have party romances. Instead, avoid the entire thing and allow various nonparty npcs to be romancable. Perhaps depending on race or other character creation options, the player can select to ALREADY be involved with a certain nonjoinable npc (what if you were ALREADY married and had a family when you started?) - if they can work it into the story, that might be alright. You could have "romances" range from base and torrid to deep and fulfilling. You could even have more than one and have all the Jerry Springer drama you want result from it. All of this can occur OUTSIDE the party where the player must actively choose to go off and persue it. This gives romance folks all the options they want while not turning the game into a Danielle Steele novel for the rest of us who would perfer not to have our party turned into a bunch of hormone driven high school kids.

 

Now, these are ideas I hope Obsidian listen to. - Except it's been a long time since I've been a horemone driven high school kid lol

[Meshugger]

So, have any of the forum members found each other and experienced true love? or the bad touch?

 

This is what this thread is about, right? (Cyberdating)

 

Let me extrapolate from your words. You are pretty much saying: "If an RPG includes romance stories than it lets the player indulge on hedonistic love fantasies (or, even worse, sex fantasies). This might be good to make horny teenagers buy the game, but since this is a Kickstarter fund project we want something more mature."

 

Let me give you the news: pretty much every story driven game contain some sort of hedonistic gratification for the player. An example? Call of Duty is built around the purpose of making the player feel like a badass, the only one who can save the world. Ok, if we talk about the shooters genre that is pretty obvious, but I can assure you that you can apply the same kind of reasoning for each and every storydriven game, even the most mature. Every western RPG is centered around making the player identify himself with the main character of the story. It's done mostly with customization: you can choose your character's race, its appearence, what he is good at (his class and attributes) and so on. Then you take control of it, it does exactly what you tell him to do. This strengthens the identification even more. You become the character you're playing and that character in some way becomes you.

 

So you end up projecting yourself in a character that is able to take control of his life, overcome the odds and, in the end, reach his goal, whatever it is. This is a great way to give the player gratification, to make him feel good with himself and to increase his self-respect. And the interesting thing is that the game doesn't need to be a power hungry fantasy to exert this effect on the player. Every goal can be good, even becoming a chef in a resturant or helping someone win his struggle agains alcohol.

 

So: you think that romance stories in videogames are childish? Know that RPG games are childish as a whole. And they couldn't be different, because it's enbedded in the relationship between the player and the character he controls. Videogames are interactive experiences and the very core of story-driven interactive experiences is the identification between the player and the character he controls. Developers can try to make this relationship less intimate by forcing the player to control different characters during the course of the playthrough, or by forcing the player to control a party and not just one single character, but this doesn't prevent the ego-stroking gratification effect from happening. In those cases the identification process stops but then the player fstarts feeling like a deus-ex-machina, able to make things right by controlling the actions of a bunch of characters, just like a puppet-master would.

 

Don't blame romances for being an way to give ego-stroking gratification to the player. Blame the RPG genre as a whole.

 

...eh, what?

 

You are doing it wrong, i think. Women appriciate men who are slightly dominant, like taking the lead and showing them that you are really interested. Talking about jungian gratification of the ego might be an interesting ice-breaker but it wouldn't go anywhere on a base level.

 

This thread is still about dating right? I am beginning to be slightly confused by the responses here.

[HereticSaint]

This doesn't give people who want romances, "all the options they could desire". I'm not saying they should, either. However, I much prefer someone who would travel with me and share in the lush experiences of such an adventure, basically, actually create a meaningful bond with due to all you've gone through. Rather than some random NPC homebody who sits at home waiting to give me a **** job and supper before I go back out to do, 'big boy work'.

 

In fact, the exact type of romance you are describing is actually what a lot of people from both sides would absolutely hate...

 

So, lemme get this straight... you are saying the only way to build a meaningful romantic bond is to go on quests to kill monsters together?

 

Yes, in fact that's exactly what I said. I mean, you quoted me and said that I said it, so I must've said it and it must be true.

[JohanKris]

However, I much prefer someone who would travel with me and share in the lush experiences of such an adventure, basically, actually create a meaningful bond with due to all you've gone through. Rather than some random NPC homebody who sits at home waiting to give me a **** job and supper before I go back out to do, 'big boy work'.

 

And not neccesarily romance. I would love for some scene were you sit at a tavern with your companions and someone tell a story or you have a drinking game or something. These things are never in RPGs. Comradeship. Someone sitting there with his beer and saying:

NPC: I think I saved your butt again

PC: What? you were lying on the ground bleeding while I killed them all

NPC: Yeah, but that was only because I took all their arrows to my chest!

Edited October 19, 2012 by JohanKris

[Shevek]

Ya, the japanese love making games where you have a bunch of horny teenagers fighting monsters. Some of these games are critically acclaimed too. I am sure some folks would be better served by checking some of those games out.

 

[Rahelron]

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

Because this is not a book.

I'm sick of railroaded stories in videogames. If Project Eternity is going to be like that then the developers should warn us. At least I would stop worrying about this game and I'd look somewhere else for a real role playing experience.

Since this is an RPG I want to be in charge of what my character does and feels. I want to be able to decide if a love story fits the character I'm playing or not, exactly like I want to be able to decide if I'm good or bad, chaotic or lawful, altruistic or individualist etc.

 

Let's say that in the beginning of the story my character is happily married. The plt starts and after a painful event my wife gets killed. I want to have the chance to decide if my character finds the strength to move on (and finds another one to love) or keeps mourning his true love forever. This is roleplaying, not some ready-made experience you have to swallow as it is or screw off.

 

You know, I find this hilarious and indicative of this thread: Jarpie actually started off claiming that there are books without romance in because proromancers were saying all good stories had romance in them, now we are at the stage that its reversed and people are arguing that just because some books don't have romance in doesn't mean it can't and that its a game not a book and so shouldn't be compared. This argument truly has come full circle, hilarious really...

 

Let me put an end to this circling around then.

 

CRPGs are not P&P RPGs. They don't have the luxury of a master that can interact with the players in real time and adapt the story taking every action into account. If I'm playing D&D and I say: now my character goes to a tavern and tryes to pick up some chick at the bar. The master can make up something on the spot or tell me: "Just wait until the next session, I'll prepare something". He doesn't need to make me find the love of my life (or even someone to have sex with) at the first try, but as long as I keep up looking for love someway somehow he must make something happen, just like it would happen in real life.

 

As we said CRPGs don't have a master. The developers might try to give the player as much freedom as they can but they obviously can't cover everything. They have to make choices, which have to comply with the available development time. Some examples:

Should the player be able to become a nobleman and rule a country?

Should the player have the chance to play a musical instrument and become a famous bard?

Can we afford to spend time in developing a full blown naval and underwater combat system to let the player explore the oceans?

Do we need a stealth system to let the player be sneaky and avoid combat when he wants to?

Do we need to give the player the chance to play the game as an evil character? (it means at least one more branch for every quest)

Can we afford to spend time writing the senes and the plot of one or more love stories?

 

Obviously each and every feature would enhance player freedom and would add at least one roleplay option. But the developers have a limited amount of time and resources so they have to make choices. Now the question is: what is important and what it's not? To me romances are a great roleplaying tool and are one of the main feature that a true roleplaying adventure should add. They aren't the most time and resource intensive feature to add too. Strongholds, Stealth system, and evil storylines are much more expansive. And let's say that pretty much every fantasy story contains a love story too.

[HereticSaint]

Au contrarie! See, I didn't tell you/someone to go play a RPG with romance instead of asking this one to have Romance. I suggested you would go look for a game spezialised for that feature as that might be something that fits your wants. This is the comparison to an action movie with a romance subplot and a romantic movie. People don't watch a action movie for the romantic subplot, just like an RPG isn't played because a romantic subplot. If that is the most important part, then you should probably try for the thing that really is about it. That is not to say a romantic sub-plot have no place, but we should treat as it is, a small and overal unimportant part of the experience

 

Regarding this specifically, I do, to an extent see that you are coming more from a reasonable perspective than a, 'GTFO my game' perspective that a lot of people have, but again, and you did address this, Japanese dating sims don't really click with me, or a lot of people. To me, a deep, complex relationship with another character isn't the time management mini-game that Japanese dating sims are of....

 

'You have 24 hours what do you want to devote time to?

 

Friday - 2 hours study, 2 hours work out, 6 hours class, 4 hours spend time with girl A, rest sleep/eat

 

Saturday - 3 hours work out, 4 hours spend with girl B, 4 hours spend with girl C, rest relax/eat/sleep'

 

That to me... is just awful. Worse than anything Bioware could come up with by far (not stating my personal opinion necessarily, but a lot of people around here hate Bioware so it's something they can draw context from).