Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter

[motorizer]

In all honesty my argument isn't really about the number of exits..I just don't want another game based around trailing back to town with loot every 5 minutes..and having loads of exits encourages this,

 

it's the same as the other arguments around rest spamming and xp for killing everything in that it encourages you to play in a certain way that is more about benefiting from game mechanics than what you would really do in that situation.

 

And I want a dungeon that is compelling enough that I want to keep going rather than pile out every level to go shopping

[Althernai]

that game was pretty well received...the dungeon could be a game within a game

No, it cannot. If the dungeon is the entire game, then the developers can level the player's character accordingly and there is no problem with the enemies becoming more powerful as the player descends. Here, the dungeon is certainly not the entire game -- it's probably a side quest. Thus, characters cannot become significantly more powerful by traversing the dungeon alone and either the dungeon is nearly flat power-wise or the player has to leave and come back after becoming stronger by other means. Based on what Feargus said, Obsidian is leaning towards the latter. I think that makes sense since flat dungeons are not fun.

[HangedMan]

In all honesty my argument isn't really about the number of exits..I just don't want another game based around trailing back to town with loot every 5 minutes..and having loads of exits encourages this,

 

it's the same as the other arguments around rest spamming and xp for killing everything in that it encourages you to play in a certain way that is more about benefiting from game mechanics than what you would really do in that situation.

 

And I want a dungeon that is compelling enough that I want to keep going rather than pile out every level to go shopping

Just because it's encouraged, doesn't mean you have to do it. Don't give in to the peer pressure. When you see the next exit, say "Naw, I don't need it, I can handle this." instead of "Oh, an exit, I should use it, because it's there."

 

Yet again, in this thread, I am reading what I have read elsewhere; weak-willed people that want the game to force them to do something, because they can't challenge themselves. Go out into the world, level up, and put points into your willpower, man! Don't use willpower as a dump stat. I mean, c'mon, when you think about it, it's actually the most important stat in RL.

[Ink Blot]

 

No, it cannot. If the dungeon is the entire game, then the developers can level the player's character accordingly and there is no problem with the enemies becoming more powerful as the player descends. Here, the dungeon is certainly not the entire game -- it's probably a side quest. Thus, characters cannot become significantly more powerful by traversing the dungeon alone and either the dungeon is nearly flat power-wise or the player has to leave and come back after becoming stronger by other means. Based on what Feargus said, Obsidian is leaning towards the latter. I think that makes sense since flat dungeons are not fun.

 

Which is a good reason to have some exits at various levels. Because trudging up and down through level after level you've already cleared is the pinnacle of fun gaming. Amirite?

[Hornet85]

its a video game, its not a torture tool. There's no reason to impose your view on how a person should struggle in a game onto everyone else.

 

If you want sadistic challenges, go ahead and not use optional features. But don't for a second think you have the right to dictate how everyone should feel about it. Options are there to allow people have fun the way they see fit.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Hornet85

[HangedMan]

No, it cannot. If the dungeon is the entire game, then the developers can level the player's character accordingly and there is no problem with the enemies becoming more powerful as the player descends. Here, the dungeon is certainly not the entire game -- it's probably a side quest. Thus, characters cannot become significantly more powerful by traversing the dungeon alone and either the dungeon is nearly flat power-wise or the player has to leave and come back after becoming stronger by other means. Based on what Feargus said, Obsidian is leaning towards the latter. I think that makes sense since flat dungeons are not fun.

 

Which is a good reason to have some exits at various levels. Because trudging up and down through level after level you've already cleared is the pinnacle of fun gaming. Amirite?

[sarcasm]Oh yes! After eight hours of doing the same repetitive task over and over again, and being paid for it, I want to go out and pay so that I can do the same repetitive task over and over again. it is such great fun, that I think that everyone else should have to do it, too. [/sarcasm]

[Gfted1]

I think they should stomp out "fast travel scumming" and force the player to walk every step of every mile. No exits, no fast travel, not even Boots of Speed. Just the heel-to-toe express or I'll gain some kind of advantage and my immersion will be broken. Or something.

[rjshae]

No thanks, I most decidedly do not want to get stuck in this dungeon for three months of gaming. Put me in the "heck no" camp.

[Landuin]

I think they should stomp out "fast travel scumming" and force the player to walk every step of every mile. No exits, no fast travel, not even Boots of Speed. Just the heel-to-toe express or I'll gain some kind of advantage and my immersion will be broken. Or something.

This but unironically.

[HangedMan]

I think they should stomp out "fast travel scumming" and force the player to walk every step of every mile. No exits, no fast travel, not even Boots of Speed. Just the heel-to-toe express or I'll gain some kind of advantage and my immersion will be broken. Or something.

I know. What we really need is DDR pad support, so we can actually walk as our character walks. And if their's several days journey between two settlement, you can bet your ass I want to spend the next 40 free hours I have walking in place to get there. Yes sir, I am hardcore like that.

[nikolokolus]

Put me down in the group of people that wants a more difficult crawl. Maybe have 2 shortcuts to the surface, but I don't want this to be a Diablo clone.

[rjshae]

Put me down in the group of people that wants a more difficult crawl. Maybe have 2 shortcuts to the surface, but I don't want this to be a Diablo clone.

I think they should have a self-flagellation option. The more you bleed, the more you lead.

[HangedMan]

Put me down in the group of people that wants a more difficult crawl. Maybe have 2 shortcuts to the surface, but I don't want this to be a Diablo clone.

I think they should have a self-flagellation option. The more you bleed, the more you lead.

As a masochist, I approve of this.

[Zanderat]

I think having several OPTIONAL TO USE exits is the way to go. When the mega dungeion was only three or four levels. i would have voted no fast exit. But now that it is 13 levles, I don't want to be stuck here (unless I want to) for several weeks until I reach the end.................

[Pope]

Why not just allow the player to choose which (already visited) level to travel to when exiting/entering the dungeon?

 

I just don't like the idea of integrated shortcuts, since those should go both ways.

[Piccolo]

You are mistaken, to create a more epic and intense experience, you dont want to too trap people. You need great storyline that does not interfere with exits anyhow, it has to be the reason to want come back there everytime. But traping is lead to identical sensation with each try you play it.

When I walk into a big old ancient dungeon, I want to feel lost and trapped at times, not knowing when i'll be able to escape. And actually managing to escape should not only be challenging, but it should also feel like an epic journey.

 

Being able to come and go as I please without ever having to spend any great deal of time lost in the dungeon kind of trivializes the experience and makes the dungeon seem far less ominous.

 

It is complitely my point - do you want to expirience one way through, every time you play this dungeon? And not to go to find some exits that nobody knows of?

They had complitely linear walk through Moria, but I dont want that, i want to explore dungeons.

Wait, you're twisting things now. We're talking about shortcuts here that let you exit midway through the dungeon then come back as you please, not alternative exits near the end. I have absolutely no problem with there being multiple exits at the dungeon that are difficult to find.

[Rocketbean]

I think there should be three exits:

One at the start (also the entrance).

One halfway through (7th level).

One at the end (14th level).

 

Hardcore/Expert mode should take out the midway exit.

 

This way once you go into the dungeon you actually have to commit to it instead of leaving every other level to sell loot. And those who are really going for the immersve experience could do it all in one shot.

[motorizer]

In all honesty my argument isn't really about the number of exits..I just don't want another game based around trailing back to town with loot every 5 minutes..and having loads of exits encourages this,

 

it's the same as the other arguments around rest spamming and xp for killing everything in that it encourages you to play in a certain way that is more about benefiting from game mechanics than what you would really do in that situation.

 

And I want a dungeon that is compelling enough that I want to keep going rather than pile out every level to go shopping

Just because it's encouraged, doesn't mean you have to do it. Don't give in to the peer pressure. When you see the next exit, say "Naw, I don't need it, I can handle this." instead of "Oh, an exit, I should use it, because it's there."

 

Yet again, in this thread, I am reading what I have read elsewhere; weak-willed people that want the game to force them to do something, because they can't challenge themselves. Go out into the world, level up, and put points into your willpower, man! Don't use willpower as a dump stat. I mean, c'mon, when you think about it, it's actually the most important stat in RL.

 

So the ones who can handle a massive challenge are the weak willed ones then?

 

I don't really mind if there's exits or not...but it just seems like a huge inescapable mega dungeon is something unique these days, a brave decision that no large publisher would ever dare add.

 

splitting it into bite size chunks seems to defeat the object...you might as well scatter the levels about and make 13 small dungeons

 

it doesn't need to be constant grind...it doesn't even need to be linear... there could be factions or whole communities in there who could trade, give quests etc....

 

anyway, no point getting into an argument with people who have no more control over the game than I have...

[Piccolo]

its a video game, its not a torture tool. There's no reason to impose your view on how a person should struggle in a game onto everyone else.

 

If you want sadistic challenges, go ahead and not use optional features. But don't for a second think you have the right to dictate how everyone should feel about it. Options are there to allow people have fun the way they see fit.

Sadistic challenges? Torture? ...

 

It sounds to me like you just don't enjoy huge dungeons. In which case, why do you even care about the mega dungeon? There's going to be tons of other stuff in the game for people who don't particularly care for dungeon crawling. There will also be smaller dungeons for people who only like a small amount of dungeon crawling every now and then, mostly for loot.

 

Anyway, relax a bit. I can be quite opinionated at times, but i'm not trying to dictate. To be completely honest, I don't even care that much. If they decide to include numerous exits on various levels (which I expect they will). it's not going to be a deal breaker or anything like that. I'll still be just as excited about playing the game.

[Ink Blot]

Put me down in the group of people that wants a more difficult crawl. Maybe have 2 shortcuts to the surface, but I don't want this to be a Diablo clone.

 

Hey, I can get behind this. Maybe an exit at level 5, one at level 10 and one at the bottom. That's fine by me. I'm not thinking there's a need for an exit every level or every other level. I got the impression the OP wants only the entrance at the top and maybe one at the bottom though, which I do not agree with.

[rjshae]

Put me down in the group of people that wants a more difficult crawl. Maybe have 2 shortcuts to the surface, but I don't want this to be a Diablo clone.

 

Hey, I can get behind this. Maybe an exit at level 5, one at level 10 and one at the bottom. That's fine by me. I'm not thinking there's a need for an exit every level or every other level. I got the impression the OP wants only the entrance at the top and maybe one at the bottom though, which I do not agree with.

 

Well they can certainly make it more of a dungeoneering experience by presenting some uncertainty about your ability to safely use the exits. Perhaps some will be structurally weak and may collapse if you use them too much. Others may be guarded by a powerful wandering spirit that will sometimes show up to suck out your soul if you try to escape. There may be warded exits that require the sacrifice of a soul stone to use. And so forth. But there should be at least a few that are reliable and don't force you to trek through the dungeon for a half hour of game time to reach. That's just pure tedium.

Edited October 17, 2012 by rjshae

[ahdamnit]

I only read part of the thread so just ignore this if someone has already posted something like it. I hate having to choose which loot I can keep. I earned all of it and I want all of it, darn it. Call me a pack rat or greedy but I shouldn't have to leave most of the treasure I find in this huge dungeon due to inventory constraints.

 

Non-living matter transporters. Transport loot of your choosing up to the surface into a possibly secured location for you to access anytime after you've completed the dungeon. Could be that it's locked up and the key for the receptacle on the surface is on the bottom level? Could be not locked which could lead to another quest in which you have to find the thief that stole all of/part of the loot that you sent up to get it back?

 

Anyway lore-wise they could be how Od Nua transported all of the rubble/debris out of the dungeon when he was making it or excavating. You could have a small journal explaining that OD Nua made them or found them and through testing or whatever it was found that any living matter sent through them came out the other side as non living matter, lol. So only non-living items such as loot and trash can go through it, well unless you really don't like one of your party members. Heh, there could even be an evil option for you to send one of your group members through it to get rid of them if you hate them.

 

This would make it so that there wouldn't necessarily have to be extra exits in the dungeon, other than maybe one on the last floor. Because honestly? I hate having to backtrack through a whole dungeon just to escape. I really, really loathe it.

[Ruka]

Depending on the floor size if it's huge, every three levels to leave seem fine

[Juneau]

I like the idea of having to do X amount of progress before you can resurface BUT what happens with (following are examples some of which might already be answered elsewhere)

• loot/bag capacity
  
• buff/food duration
  
• quantity off food/potions
  
• requirement to repair/rest
  

[Piccolo]

Non-living matter transporters. Transport loot of your choosing up to the surface into a possibly secured location for you to access anytime after you've completed the dungeon. Could be that it's locked up and the key for the receptacle on the surface is on the bottom level? Could be not locked which could lead to another quest in which you have to find the thief that stole all of/part of the loot that you sent up to get it back?

No thanks. That sounds FAR too convenient for the player. I'd rather they just let you walk out of the exit with the loot yourself, with a high chance of a group of bandits ambushing you on the surface.