kenup Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Leliana, Zevran(and rightly so) and Alistair were also quite killable in the first DA, but unfortunately they retconed everything about those 3. Morrigan and her Mother were supposed to be part of an overarching plot and that's why they weren't killable, I'm guessing, but Bioware chickened out in order to make DS2.....uh I mean DA2. You can kill Anders, but he wants to be martyred, so it lacks the satisfaction. Who cares about his martyrdom syndrom. If only the writing made actual sense his trial and/or death should had ended the conflict. Edited October 17, 2012 by kenup
Teuthida Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 every time an NPC character is forced to say, '(CONDITIONAL MET: ROMANCE) Oh, PLAYERNAME, I never thought I could fall in love with a RACENAME, least of all a CLASSNAME, but I just can't get over all of your UNSPECIFIED POSITIVE QUALITIES' Oh my god this made me laugh so hard
Lurky Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 '(CONDITIONAL MET: ROMANCE) Oh, PLAYERNAME, I never thought I could fall in love with a RACENAME, least of all a CLASSNAME, but I just can't get over all of your UNSPECIFIED POSITIVE QUALITIES' This is the best summary ever
Rahelron Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) An example of a romance mini-game is any romance in BG2. Let's say I agree with your vision: every story-arc within your party is a relationship minigame then. What's the difference between a relationship where falling in love is the outcome and one where the ultimate resoult is becoming friends? The mechanics that handle that progression are pretty much the same. Your actions and your dialogue choices (and maybe your status in the reputation system) decide what every NPC thinks about you. Someone might leave the party because of your choices, someone might fall in love with you. Where's the problem? Why you think that love is the problem? Every game that involves relationships between PC and NPCs has a set of algorithms and scripts that handle those relationships. It needs them to make the story react taking the actions of the player into account. Those alorithms and scripts are needed to give agency to the player. If the developers take those out then the game becomes a movie where you have to fight or solve puzzles to see how the story progresses. It becomes a shooter, an hack 'n slash, a graphic adventure... but shurely not an RPG. Edited October 17, 2012 by Rahelron 1
qloher Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Leliana, Zevran(and rightly so) and Alistair were also quite killable in the first DA, but unfortunately they retconed everything about those 3. Morrigan and her Mother were supposed to be part of an overarching plot and that's why they weren't killable, I'm guessing, but Bioware chickened out in order to make DS2.....uh I mean DA2. Not really. Alistair stays dead in DA2 if you killed him in DAO; Zevran reappearing in DA2 after being killed in DAO is a confirmed bug, he is not supposed to do so. Leliana is a confirmed retcon though.
SunBroSolaire Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I love the idea of romances, but I can't think of a game that got it just right. As long as it's possible to forge meaningful relationships with the companions, I don't care if they call it "romance" or not. I certainly wouldn't mind a traditional romance, but I hope it's not like freaking Mass Effect where the characters basicaly existed to be romanced. And if they do implement something like this I reallllly hope they don't use BioWare's formula where the relationship culminates in a fade to black sex scene. Don't know about you guys, but I don't consider having sex for the first time the Ultimate Goal in a relationship. I guess what I'm saying is it would be nice to see actual relationships portrayed in the game, and not just flirting/seduction. 1
Arkeus Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Leliana, Zevran(and rightly so) and Alistair were also quite killable in the first DA, but unfortunately they retconed everything about those 3. Morrigan and her Mother were supposed to be part of an overarching plot and that's why they weren't killable, I'm guessing, but Bioware chickened out in order to make DS2.....uh I mean DA2. Not really. Alistair stays dead in DA2 if you killed him in DAO; Zevran reappearing in DA2 after being killed in DAO is a confirmed bug, he is not supposed to do so. Leliana is a confirmed retcon though. The 'default' is all three survives, though. Sure, you can import a game, but they all survive if you don't.
evdk Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Zevran reappearing in DA2 after being killed in DAO is a confirmed bug I'd like a quote on that, because I remember the developers saying the exact opposite. Say no to popamole!
qloher Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Leliana, Zevran(and rightly so) and Alistair were also quite killable in the first DA, but unfortunately they retconed everything about those 3. Morrigan and her Mother were supposed to be part of an overarching plot and that's why they weren't killable, I'm guessing, but Bioware chickened out in order to make DS2.....uh I mean DA2. Not really. Alistair stays dead in DA2 if you killed him in DAO; Zevran reappearing in DA2 after being killed in DAO is a confirmed bug, he is not supposed to do so. Leliana is a confirmed retcon though. The 'default' is all three survives, though. Sure, you can import a game, but they all survive if you don't. Who cares about the default and why should authors construct a default the way so players choosing it end up with less characters present in their game?
Ruka Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Zevran reappearing in DA2 after being killed in DAO is a confirmed bug I'd like a quote on that, because I remember the developers saying the exact opposite. Didn't they say something like we can do whatever we want,it's are game
Teuthida Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I love the idea of romances, but I can't think of a game that got it just right. As long as it's possible to forge meaningful relationships with the companions, I don't care if they call it "romance" or not. I certainly wouldn't mind a traditional romance, but I hope it's not like freaking Mass Effect where the characters basicaly existed to be romanced. And if they do implement something like this I reallllly hope they don't use BioWare's formula where the relationship culminates in a fade to black sex scene. Don't know about you guys, but I don't consider having sex for the first time the Ultimate Goal in a relationship. I guess what I'm saying is it would be nice to see actual relationships portrayed in the game, and not just flirting/seduction. I completely agree with you - the idea of having sex scenes as a "reward" has always creeped me out. Just a gross sort of mentality there. I also wonder if people realize that very few real relationships work that way? The whole "not even kissing until saying you're in love" thing? "Well, we've been aggressively flirting for a while now and we haven't even kissed but I think it's time... I just can't hold back my feelings for you anymore, Player Character..." "I love you." "OH GOD I LOVE YOU TOO, LET'S DO IT RIGHT NOW" (FADE TO BLACK, ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED) 1
BR4ZIL Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 From what i have been reading on this topic, people only seem to point out the latest Bioware romances as bad example (which they are, btw). Have you guys played BG2 (with or without the numerous romance mods)? or maybe Fallout 2 with the Miria mod? There are ways to make romances work within a game and not being the focal point (like DA2) of the storyline. Whenever Obsedian will put them in the game or it will be made by modders doesnt matter, but i what i am sad to see is some people that apparently think romances are inherently bad in a game, which is just wrong. 1
grotbag Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) This is true for every interaction in every RPG that has companions in hit. You have to create a group and keep everyone loyal to you, so you have to choose the right dialogue options when issues arise. Love is not the problem, the problem is within the way by which RPGs recreate human relationships... any kind of human relationship. I think there's a fairly clear and substantial difference, at least in terms of character, between a system that says 'You spared the life of Old Ma Kettle. As a result, your companion Amelia Kettle is grateful towards you' and a system that says 'You spared the life of Old Ma Kettle. As a result, Amelia Kettle would like to have a conversation with you where she toys with her hair and asks if there'll ever be something between the two of you because she's been finding you attractive for some time now.' In short, I think having general reputation amongst your companions rise and fall according to this cause-and-effect system is simplistic but basically fine - it's a management mechanic that simulates the player character's leadership skills (or lack of), their ability to flatter and manage and control their team, and it can basically make logical sense so far as motivations go (you kill an orc. Your orc party member becomes unhappy. Fine.). Having a party member automatically become attracted to or fall in love with the player character as a direct result of a cause-and-effect system has nothing to do with how real-life love works and, really, it's rather odd. The party member turns into a kind of bridal Tamagotchi. Edited October 17, 2012 by grotbag 1
Teuthida Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 From what i have been reading on this topic, people only seem to point out the latest Bioware romances as bad example (which they are, btw). Have you guys played BG2 (with or without the numerous romance mods)? I can't ever cite Baldur's Gate 2 as an example of good romance options because I just... I just hate Anomen so much...
kenup Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Leliana, Zevran(and rightly so) and Alistair were also quite killable in the first DA, but unfortunately they retconed everything about those 3. Morrigan and her Mother were supposed to be part of an overarching plot and that's why they weren't killable, I'm guessing, but Bioware chickened out in order to make DS2.....uh I mean DA2. Not really. Alistair stays dead in DA2 if you killed him in DAO; Zevran reappearing in DA2 after being killed in DAO is a confirmed bug, he is not supposed to do so. Leliana is a confirmed retcon though. The 'default' is all three survives, though. Sure, you can import a game, but they all survive if you don't. I was talking about the import though. But anyway, it doesn't matter how many stay dead(and an import bug doesn't help things), or stay alive, as long as they retcon whatever they deem necessary, without care for player choice. Of course as I said in a previous post, player choice is the bad guy from time to time.
ReyVagabond Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I love the idea of romances, but I can't think of a game that got it just right. As long as it's possible to forge meaningful relationships with the companions, I don't care if they call it "romance" or not. I certainly wouldn't mind a traditional romance, but I hope it's not like freaking Mass Effect where the characters basicaly existed to be romanced. And if they do implement something like this I reallllly hope they don't use BioWare's formula where the relationship culminates in a fade to black sex scene. Don't know about you guys, but I don't consider having sex for the first time the Ultimate Goal in a relationship. I guess what I'm saying is it would be nice to see actual relationships portrayed in the game, and not just flirting/seduction. I completely agree with you - the idea of having sex scenes as a "reward" has always creeped me out. Just a gross sort of mentality there. I also wonder if people realize that very few real relationships work that way? The whole "not even kissing until saying you're in love" thing? "Well, we've been aggressively flirting for a while now and we haven't even kissed but I think it's time... I just can't hold back my feelings for you anymore, Player Character..." "I love you." "OH GOD I LOVE YOU TOO, LET'S DO IT RIGHT NOW" (FADE TO BLACK, ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED) Yeah its was funny! but come on, ¨we are fighting for our lives each day here lets have some fun tonight! ¨
BR4ZIL Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I can't ever cite Baldur's Gate 2 as an example of good romance options because I just... I just hate Anomen so much... Well true, Female CHARNAME really gets the shaft with only Anomen as option (again, mods save the day). Still, i am gonna say this again, Romances in BG2 are alright with the exception of Aerie (oh dear god, the whining is annoying as hell)
qloher Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Zevran reappearing in DA2 after being killed in DAO is a confirmed bug I'd like a quote on that, because I remember the developers saying the exact opposite. Here and Here.
evdk Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Romance mods for BG2 are the example of what I would never want to see in PE, please stop using them as positive examples, it gives me migraines, thanks. 2 Say no to popamole!
Adhin Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Aerie romance was fine, you just didn't like the character. Which isn't to say the romance was bad or her non-story related romance was bad, it just wasn't what you liked. Personally I liked all 3 of em but I'm not a big fan of the Jaheria's thing with how yall randomly split up for months or whatever. Makes sense I guess, and I like that its different but I haven't made a character (or wish to) that would like that kind of thing. BG2 did something no other RPG since has really done well with there party banter, DAO got pretty close to it though but you where completely removed from it. It happened at very specific 'you walked over a party banter ping spot' instead of it being kept track of time wise. Ultimately I think BG2 did the best job outa all of them for making the party members seem more alive then any game since or before it just in general, romances or not. PST also did a great job but most of those where specific points, not mildly random moments. But either way PST and BG2 are easily the best examples of how to handle romances, or just party interaction in general. Anything beyond that, as far as im concerned, is weather or not I actually 'like' the characters in question. Both games though had full fledged paths and twists to either way you fell on the relationship line and other then 1 real instance with Aerie, there wasn't much in the way of binary choices of 'this is the only right choice' for a desired effect. Oddly enough Aeries was at the very end of it, and changed things but lotta folks didn't know that till the expansion came out and they expanded/continued them. Can't remember if there was away to resolve that if you where being a **** with how you responded to her question. -edit- Ahh and as per post above me I'm not talking about mods. Haven't seen a romance mod I've liked. But then I can't stand 99% of fanfiction... like I've said before I love that it exists, I think its great people enjoy doing it and others enjoy reading it. But I just can't stand the stuff personally. Edited October 17, 2012 by Adhin 1 Def Con: kills owls dead
Rahelron Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) This is true for every interaction in every RPG that has companions in hit. You have to create a group and keep everyone loyal to you, so you have to choose the right dialogue options when issues arise. Love is not the problem, the problem is within the way by which RPGs recreate human relationships... any kind of human relationship. I think there's a fairly clear and substantial difference, at least in terms of character, between a system that says 'You spared the life of Old Ma Kettle. As a result, your companion Amelia Kettle is grateful towards you' and a system that says 'You spared the life of Old Ma Kettle. As a result, Amelia Kettle would like to have a conversation with you where she toys with her hair and asks if there'll ever be something between the two of you because she's been finding you attractive for some time now.' In short, I think having general reputation amongst your companions rise and fall according to this cause-and-effect system is simplistic but basically fine - it's a management mechanic that simulates the player character's leadership skills (or lack of), their ability to flatter and manage and control their team, and it can basically make logical sense so far as motivations go (you kill an orc. Your orc party member becomes unhappy. Fine.). Having a party member automatically become attracted to or fall in love with the player character as a direct result of a cause-and-effect system has nothing to do with how real-life love works and, really, it's rather odd. The party member turns into a kind of bridal Tamagotchi. I agree with you. Simplified friendships are less annoying than simplified love stories. But I dont think the problem is love, the problem is how the romance stories have been handled in games so far. The problem with (bioware) games is the fact that they make everything obvious and plain with those "affinity indicators" that show up in the NPCs character sheet. Raise the affinity above a given threshold and the love story will start. This feels too much mechanical and should be changed. When that threshold is really easy to achieve with some party management and some obvious dialogue choices it's even worse. If you want to romance your lawful good companion you just have to avoid bringing her when you have to break the law for example. This makes everything feel like a minigame where the reward is a sex cutscene and some ego-stroking line said around the main game. Love in games deserves a better representation, but this means that love stories should be deeper and handled with more complex in-game mechanics, not that they should be scrapped altogether. Edited October 17, 2012 by Rahelron
kenup Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Romance mods for BG2 are the example of what I would never want to see in PE, please stop using them as positive examples, it gives me migraines, thanks. That's the reason I was, and still am, against allowing mods on nexus for PE. "Romantic" romance mods will be the least concern though.
qloher Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I was talking about the import though. But anyway, it doesn't matter how many stay dead(and an import bug doesn't help things), or stay alive, as long as they retcon whatever they deem necessary, without care for player choice. Of course as I said in a previous post, player choice is the bad guy from time to time. Well, to be fair, in DA3 they can proclaim Leliana has been resurrected by Andraste herself peeping out from Heavens, confirming the Maker is real while they are on it. So that or something like that can add some common sense to the retcon.
Ieo Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Romance mods for BG2 are the example of what I would never want to see in PE, please stop using them as positive examples, it gives me migraines, thanks. Actually, I see mods as precisely a way for players to create for themselves what they might want in the game or see as a missing element, poor Mary Sue fan-fic quality and all, not something to specifically emulate for inclusion into Project Eternity proper. If someone honestly believes they're missing a "decent" transsexual romance option, let them write it themselves. Let content mods and core game remain separate forever more. That's not a bad thing. 1 The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book. Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most? PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE. "But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger) "Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)
kenup Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I was talking about the import though. But anyway, it doesn't matter how many stay dead(and an import bug doesn't help things), or stay alive, as long as they retcon whatever they deem necessary, without care for player choice. Of course as I said in a previous post, player choice is the bad guy from time to time. Well, to be fair, in DA3 they can proclaim Leliana has been resurrected by Andraste herself peeping out from Heavens, confirming the Maker is real while they are on it. So that or something like that can add some common sense to the retcon. Only if they patch origins, so my warden can pee on the ashes. Then have DA4 about the warden killing anyone with the mind to serve the maker and the maker at the end.
Recommended Posts