Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat

[Valorian]

Let's imagine characters in project Eternity have two stats that measure damage taken. One is called endurance, the other health.

Most damage taken in combat would decrease endurance, which is relatively easy to restore and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat. Damage to health would be more serious and much harder to restore, probably only through consumables and/or rest. Having your endurance lowered to 0 would knock the character out. Having your health knocked to 0 would kill the character outright.

 

 

Now, this is not my idea, but I'd like to discuss this system.

 

 

Personally, I'm ok with the differentiation between health and endurance, even if I don't think it's necessary to have two bars to measure damage taken. I do understand that they want the player to be able to engage in several combat encounters without resting; and that's where auto-regeneration and cooldowns come into play.

 

 

However, the issue I see with such a system is that hit points (we can call it endurance, but they'll effectively still be points that are lowered as you take damage; i.e. hit points) would regenerate rapidly(?) on their own during combat:

 

1) Balancing encounters would be much harder. They'd have to take into account, that depending on the duration of the fight, hit points could regenerate their initial value several times. A creature with 30 endurance could for instance end up effectively having 90 or more HP, if the fight is long enough, because it constantly regenerates.

 

 

2) Simply running away or in circles around your opponent, if you're faster, would rapidly replenish hit-points. Or to use a Biowarian analogy, "taking cover" would regenerate all your hit-points back. Unless it's arbitrarily decided that regeneration stops when you're moving away from your opponent.

 

 

3) Would this distinction between health and endurance apply to all creatures or just party members? Would enemies have endurance that rapidly regenerates, as well? If it's just for party members, that would be a huge advantage for the player and would also shift the combat system towards an asymmetrical one.

 

 

In the end, I don't believe that hitpoints (endurance) should regenerate back on their own in the heat of battle. When my character gets hit by a warhammer, or damaged by any other weapon or spell, I see as logical that he/she and his/her body would start recovering only after the running and striking stops; after combat.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Valorian

[Frenetic Pony]

No

[Jarmo]

I would like to see all kinds of regeneration inducing artifacts, since those are my favorite and really streamline gameplay.

(only really come to play out of combat though)

 

But I'll have to say.

 

Running around in circles is no good way to regain your endurance. That's just... no.

[Osvir]

We've had tons of discussions about this, I think the "no regeneration at all" is the verdict (speculation) at this point. You only heal by spells (cure light wounds and friends), (health) potions and resting. I think that's that at least? Please correct me if the Obs devs are still considering another system of regeneration.

 

EDIT:

I would like to see all kinds of regeneration inducing artifacts, since those are my favorite and really streamline gameplay.

(only really come to play out of combat though)

 

Though I haven't seen this thrown into the discussion before and it kind of flirts with me

Edited October 10, 2012 by Osvir

[Jarmo]

We've had tons of discussions about this, I think the "no regeneration at all" is the verdict (speculation) at this point. You only heal by spells (cure light wounds and friends), (health) potions and resting. I think that's that at least? Please correct me if the Obs devs are still considering another system of regeneration.

 

Oh they are considering it and if It's out there's a thinking behind it.

It's not something that's going to just slip their mind.

 

NWN2 and KotOR2 were full of the stuff, I'd always have everybody with at least +1 regeneration,

smaller wounds would heal pretty quick after battle and you could leave the magic for in battle healing.

Can't remember, but I think at least BG2 and IWD must have had rings of regeneration or something.

[Adhin]

Yeah I think base health regeneration in combat is generally a bad idea. That's base, of course, if its via items or some high lvl warrior skill thats another matter but if its something you don't earn, something you don't build towards and just everyone regenerates it tends to heavily impact how combats played. You can still make combat a challenge with it but its not the same type of a challenge and horrendously silly 'tactics' like the OP mentioned, running in circles, starts to become 'valid' which is bad.

 

I am ok with out-of-combat regen, though I'd prefer it to be mildly slower then DAO which was... to full in I think 4 seconds tops. Which I get why they did that, if they're injury stuff was more severe and wasn't so easily cured it would of made far less of an issue but the fact you could easily remove all injuries kinda made that system a little silly. Either way curious what there idea/plans are for this stuff.

[imatechguy]

Without either a magical item/artifact or a godlike CON equivalent score there should be no "regen" during battle. You should be too busy dodging, ducking, trying to kill the other guy and generally just too busy (physically and mentally) during a battle to start the healing process.

 

Outside of combat the healing mechanic should be different but not the near "insta-heal" found in DA:O other similar series.

[Crusty]

I think you're misunderstanding him.

 

To clarify JE Sawyer's comments, Darklands doesn't regenerate Endurance naturally during combat IIRC. What he could be referring to is the rate of which Endurance recovers over Strength when using potions like Essence 'o' Graces.

 

Strength is what he calls as Health, btw.

 

i.e You have 10 END and 10 STR, using 1 EoG restores 3 STR, but 7 END.

 

What happens is that after combat encounters, your party regenerates a large amount of endurance lost and a small amount of health. These values vary from encounter to encounter, but it's instantaneous, not over time. This happens just before and after you get into the loot menu to share the spoils of battle.

 

It's an abstract way of communicating to the player a small period in which the party is able to plunder the stuffs of fallen foes, escape the vicinity, receive thanks from innocent bystanders and/or reflect on the events that had occurred. Time also passes in these events, meaning that a 2-3 minute battle could end up being a 3 hour period in-game. Basically, it's the unseen 2h and 57m where the regeneration happens.

 

Because Darklands handles most of it's interactions in a menu based CYOA-esque system, the entire process is abstract. It's the same out of combat as well. Navigating around the city assumes that you wouldn't be sprinting all around town, so by taking things as a slow/steady pace, you would regain your END/stamina. This is also true for world travel/exploration. Health can also regenerate during all of this, but it's at a much less lower rate. I assume that the reasoning behind it is that your character naturally heals from injuries over time (I believe regenerating STR is linked to your Healing skills).

 

Then there's also camping/the Inn where you can spend a full in-game day resting, regaining STR, earning moniez, foraging for food/guarding camp, making potions, etc.

 

It might sound a bit cheap, but the reality is we're talking about traversing a quarter of the overworld map to regenerate 5-10 STR which can be lost in a single encounter with wild boars.

 

And as for camping, it's not like rest spam because the entire gameworld operates with time in mind. Your characters get older (and weaker if they're at a certain age), many story events and quests also are limited by time. i.e High Sabbats.

 

Camp spamming to fully regen after every encounter is not a viable strategy, because there are consequences for doing so. (In addition to the above, camping has a risk of hostile encounters which goes up every time you camp in the same area)

 

What he's thinking about is probably not running around in circles to regen END/HP, or having them regen in combat (that would be stupid IMO). But something similar in terms of making it abstract. Perhaps Fast Travelling to a District on the other side of the City would take several hours and offer the group some regeneration of their END, for example. Or on the larger scale, something like taking a boat to another city.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Crusty

[Vargr]

All for Endurance/Health, if the combat system they develop benefits from it.

Endurance should never recover during combat though. There should be ways to slow its' drain rate, possibly, but never have it regenerate

on its' own during a battle, nor should health.

[jivex5k]

No regeneration of any kind please. I always hated Skyrim for that....

It makes battles feel a lot more dangerous.

Edited October 10, 2012 by jivex5k

[rjshae]

I've played games where vitality slowly returns during combat (in contrast to injuries, which must be healed). It's an okay mechanic; the main factor is that the total vitality must be lower than what you'd get with a system using out-of-combat healing. That way, the net risk is the same, with the additional factor that the heavily damaged character will have the option to retreat in order to recover without healing magic.

Edited October 10, 2012 by rjshae

[Valorian]

We've had tons of discussions about this, I think the "no regeneration at all" is the verdict (speculation) at this point. You only heal by spells (cure light wounds and friends), (health) potions and resting.

 

That would be wonderful.

 

Please correct me if the Obs devs are still considering another system of regeneration.

 

Yes. They're considering the system I described in the first paragraph.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

Note that Feargus also answered a question about automatic regeneration of HP with "yes and no". He was thinking about endurance and health probably.

 

I would like to see all kinds of regeneration inducing artifacts, since those are my favorite and really streamline gameplay.

(only really come to play out of combat though)

 

With (in combat) regeneration items you have the same problem, but on a smaller scale. That's why I never liked them.

I love items with lifesteal properties though, you have to actually hit your enemy to restore a portion of the damage dealt.

 

I think you're misunderstanding him.

 

It's entirely possible that I misunderstood this sentence:

"Most damage taken in combat would Endurance, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat."

And that he actually didn't mean that Endurance regenerates rapidly on its own both in and out of combat, but something entirely different, like you nicely explained in your lengthy explanation of what he meant to say.

 

 

What he's thinking about is probably not running around in circles to regen END/HP, or having them regen in combat (that would be stupid IMO).

 

That would be stupid, yes.

[Bill Gates' Son]

No

 

Regen was in BG, IWD, and PS:T. You better have a better explanation than "no".

[Lady Evenstar]

This seems to me the sort of issue that probably shouldn't be resolved until final tuning. It's easy to say yes or no in the abstract, but what really matters is how the pieces fit together. Without knowing the impacts on class and encounter design it's hard to express a useful opinion.

[rjshae]

What he's thinking about is probably not running around in circles to regen END/HP, or having them regen in combat (that would be stupid IMO).

 

That would be stupid, yes.

 

It wouldn't be quite as stupid if you could switch to purely defensive mode while you recover your breath and overcome the pain.

[Osvir]

Please correct me if the Obs devs are still considering another system of regeneration.

 

Yes. They're considering the system I described in the first paragraph.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

 

Note that Feargus also answered a question about automatic regeneration of HP with "yes and no". He was thinking about endurance and health probably.

 

Thank you I have nothing further to add. I am not necessarily against regeneration, I would just prefer it to be excluded. In terms of regeneration I'd rather see it as something "High level"-only and/or artifacts like Jarmo suggests (i.e., Ring of Regeneration).

[Valorian]

Regen was in BG, IWD, and PS:T. You better have a better explanation than "no".

 

There was no default automatic rapid regeneration of hit-points in BG or IWD. You'd regenerate slowly only by having a rare item or a very high constitution score and even then regeneration was not by any means rapid. They've scrapped 'high con = slow regeneration' in 3/3.5 ed though.

 

This seems to me the sort of issue that probably shouldn't be resolved until final tuning. It's easy to say yes or no in the abstract, but what really matters is how the pieces fit together. Without knowing the impacts on class and encounter design it's hard to express a useful opinion.

 

Of course, once an Obisidan developer describes a certain system he considers to use, no matter how flawed it is, it's hard to express a useful opinion because... *suspense drum roll* ... "it can be done right" ("when the pieces fit together").

[Gorgon]

No to automatic health regen and stamina/mana bars. I also dislike short duration buff spells, they become a real chore after a while. The way potions worked in Witcher would be my preference.

[Uomoz]

I feel like the D&d hp-pool only system is old and could be improved on, it makes me feel like characters are sacks of blood. This duality hp\stamina could be a nice solution, meaning that dodges\scratches could be recovered fast while wounds could be a lot more troublesome.

 

EDIT: This would also decrease the necessity to make characters have 10 times the starting hp pool at the end of the game. That's silly.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Uomoz

[Reddie]

I say no to automatic regeneration in combat, except when it's achieved by ingame resource (artifact/spell/technology perhaps?). When out of combat, there could be automatic regeneration to simulate self-healing, but I don't consider this obligatory.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Reddie

[Uomoz]

If you think about it, it's quite cool: a tired fighter is more prone to take a direct hit and get "only healable" hp loss since he used all his "auto-slowly regenerating" endurance pool dodging and parrying hits. Endurance could make melee vs melee fights a lot more interesting.

[ReyVagabond]

The thing here is how to balance game lore and mechanics with gameplay.

Gameplay is about fun, if there is a downtime it has to be fun and engaging.

Like if you stop the action to camp because the party needs to rest, then you can make it engaging with rest micromanage, like who takes guard do they gather close by resources to craft small stuff like venoms repair some armor, etc. Chating with companions, romancing them etc.

 

Now, I don’t like regeneration but if you have magic and magic is able to regenerate you health and body then well. You cans say:

Thanks to the power of the soul the most powerful can tap into that energy to regenerate. Warriors, Rogues, Mages and Etc can regenerate Health and Stamina thanks to having a powerful soul.

 

That’s lore and mechanics, and the effect in gameplay is that there is no battle downtime.

 

Personally I want a system where not my health but my armor is what is getting damaged and then its pierced or brakes then I and my Hp is getting hit and I start being injured. After combat I can treat injuries and I can repair my armor.

 

Most of the fight should be beaten without to much damage so you don’t need to tend your wounds and maybe you can carry some spare armors so you don’t need to repair them for the next battle or grab one of the people you beat with luck its not to damaged and you can carry on.

 

But that’s just me. The only thing I don’t want is that if there is down time to not be boring of example, resting after every fight in NWN where at level 1 you rested for 5-10 secs was ok, but at level 17 resting for minutes was not fun way to spend time playing a GAME!

 

In the end of the day hard core or not its still a GAME! Make it engaging and fun!

If you want to give players wings just say its part of the power of the fractured soul of the eagle that’s how chimeras born fractured animal souls wake up in an animal and they mutate to match the body with the soul.

 

But that’s just me

[Lv99Wizard]

I like the Endurance/Health idea personally. Blocking a mace strike with your shield will obviously take effort but won't do any damage. Having your endurance then regenerate seems perfectly sensible to me.

 

If, instead, your character actually gets hit by the mace then the damage taken shouldn't heal without spell/potion/salve.

 

What's important is that you don't have to deplete endurance points to cause damage.

[Osvir]

I like the Endurance/Health idea personally. Blocking a mace strike with your shield will obviously take effort but won't do any damage. Having your endurance then regenerate seems perfectly sensible to me.

 

If, instead, your character actually gets hit by the mace then the damage taken shouldn't heal without spell/potion/salve.

 

What's important is that you don't have to deplete endurance points to cause damage.

 

Ah I see! This is great :D

[Valorian]

It wouldn't be quite as stupid if you could switch to purely defensive mode while you recover your breath and overcome the pain.

 

Defensive mode, while you're trying to deflect and parry warhammers, swords, dodge arrows, run for your life when you see an incoming finger of death.. etc., would still drain your endurance and stamina.

I don't see how it makes sense for endurace to regenerate while you're actively investing your brain and body and its every muscle into combat.

 

Running in circles is a mechanics design issue as well. Would it make sense for endurance to stop regenerating while you're running, but not when you're attacking or taking blows or trying to dodge them?

 

Cooldowns are a good example. You can run in circles with your whole party around your slower or equally fast opponents (Benny Hill style) until your wizard's highest tier not-per-rest spells are off cooldown and cast again. Valid tactics or not? This can't happen if all spells are per-rest. This can't happen if hit-points don't regenerate on their own (during combat).