Rabain Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 An overpriced addon for a small group. Each expansion handed out in the kickstarter is essentially done at a loss. Minimize that. It's borrowing money from Charles to pay Bill, which is a classic problem. They'd be borrowing profits and sales from the next title down the line to fund the current title's production. There's nothing to be gained that way. For you or for them. Yes, it's "more cash to the development of the main game" but that cash is coming from somewhere else. They cannot make the Xpac out of profit from the sales of the Xpac, unless they invent Time travel. So considering we are already in the situation were the funding of an Xpac depends on people not involved in the KS right now in any way, we might as well have a KS Addon for the Xpac in order to get more money for the main game. The Xpac needs to be funded by main game sales unrelated to current pledges, this is obvious (no one pledging more than $20 right now needs to buy the game on release). The Xpac won't get made at all if those unknown people don't buy the main game, so who cares if the Xpac sales are hit by an Xpac Addon if we are talking about sales that haven't even occured yet? We can assume if the game is a success on release that those people will also purchase the Xpac. So yeah, might as well make an Xpac Addon for KS, no reason not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosesandAshes Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 If the expansion pack is available after release then I'll get it. I really don't have the money for it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SqueakyCat Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 From the Comments Section: Question: Just FYI Obsidian have already comment on the update comments as follows: "All the funding that we receive from Kickstarter and PayPal will be used to make the base game - No money raised will be used for funding the expansion in any way." Feargus: Yes, we are going to fund it ourselves and from the sales we get from Project Eternity when it comes available - not from Kickstarter funds. I don't think we will do a Kickstarter just for it, I'd rather see about funding the sequel that way - if you guys will still have us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsy81 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) I also know how dangerous it can be to UNDER-price physical goods, and I would hate to see them set up a situation that would bleed money and hurt the game. That's exactly why I only pledge to digital tiers now. When I saw how much the Double Fine Adventure and The Banner Saga had to spend on physical rewards being manufactured, sent out etc. I resolved to not pledge for physical stuff again. Who needs a hard-back book when a .pdf will do? I'd rather it gets spent on the game instead. I know others will disagree but there it is... Edited October 8, 2012 by Bootsy81 1 High-Priest of Funk of the Obsidian Order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsy81 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 People could just as easily buy the expansion closer to release without the accounting headache. Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think I'll be doing it that way. Unless I can scrape together some cash in the next week or so.... High-Priest of Funk of the Obsidian Order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlarm Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Well, I guess they hope that PE will be a commercial success. Many of us believe it will, but it's not guaranteed. But then again kickstarter projects are not guaranteed to successfully deliver on their goals in the first place. If your reward includes a copy of the game, what it actually means is that if the development of the game succeeds as planned, then you will get a copy of it. Similarly, if your reward includes a copy of the expansion, what it actually means is that if the development of the game succeeds as planned, and if after that it sells enough copies to fund development of an expansion, and if the development of the expansion then succeeds as planned, then you will get a copy of it. Yes, it means you have to go out on a limb. But that's what you are doing anyways, whenever you support a Kickstarter project. It is up to you to decide, which risks are acceptable for the amount of money you choose to pledge. If you are unsure about the expansion, simply ignore it and only choose the corresponding tier if you would have chosen it anyways. I'm aware of the inherent risks in supporting a KS idea. It's not that risk which was concerning me. My main concern (which Adam has now addressed) was that the KS money would be going to pay for the expansion content. That decision would mean that a percentage of the money donated by any tier not receiving the expansion would be funding content they would then have to pay extra for. That wouldn't be fair as many people have been donating with the knowledge that their money would be going towards making the base game (which everyone will be receiving) as good as it can be. Anyways its a moot point now that Adam has stated all the KS money will go to the main game. As a bit of a side note I wonder how they will be funding the expansion. Surely they will start work on it months before the main game ships (this is how development usually works) and they see any money from sales. Will they get a loan? Start another KS later one? Do they have enough reserves to cover the cost of an expansion? Edit: and now Feargus (thanks squeaky cat) has answered that question. Edited October 8, 2012 by zlarm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 They cannot make the Xpac out of profit from the sales of the Xpac, unless they invent Time travel. Or they open early pre-orders. Which they very well might. Which is what you're asking them to do, anyway. Just you're asking to make the accounting troublesome on top of it. 1 "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I also know how dangerous it can be to UNDER-price physical goods, and I would hate to see them set up a situation that would bleed money and hurt the game. That's exactly why I only pledge to digital tiers now. When I saw how much the Double Fine Adventure and The Banner Saga had to spend on physical rewards being manufactured, sent out etc. I resolved to not pledge for physical stuff again. Who needs a hard-back book when a .pdf will do? I'd rather it gets spent on the game instead. I know others will disagree but there it is... Yes, this is true, but physical items could conceivably create more revenue for the devs. The point is balancing costs against price and shipping. If you can offer quality items that folks will buy, then it's worth it. After all, mail-order has made a *lot* of money over the years, so it's not necessarily something that will end up costing money. It's just a matter of working out the details. However, what I would like is, if Obsidz is dead set against offering physical add-on swag, that they just come clean about it. A polite notification clearly stating that they cannot offer physical add-on items due to the prohibitive costs would settle the issue for me. Otherwise, I'll keep pestering on the subject, not because I want to demand it, but because I don't know if it's feasible or not. If it is, they should consider it. If it's not, they should put the matter to rest and we'll move on. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivex5k Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 How could this be day one DLC? It will be released 6 months after the game... Unless I misunderstood, which is possible, the wait is only for those that don't get it through pledging.... No, you just get it for free when it's done if you get it as a pledge reward. You still have to wait until it's finished before you get it, unfortunately Obsidian's time machine has been on the fritz for years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilhdr Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I have mixed feelings about this. The money raised from the expasions pre-orders will fund the main game or the expansion itself? It doesn't made much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsy81 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I also know how dangerous it can be to UNDER-price physical goods, and I would hate to see them set up a situation that would bleed money and hurt the game. That's exactly why I only pledge to digital tiers now. When I saw how much the Double Fine Adventure and The Banner Saga had to spend on physical rewards being manufactured, sent out etc. I resolved to not pledge for physical stuff again. Who needs a hard-back book when a .pdf will do? I'd rather it gets spent on the game instead. I know others will disagree but there it is... Yes, this is true, but physical items could conceivably create more revenue for the devs. The point is balancing costs against price and shipping. If you can offer quality items that folks will buy, then it's worth it. After all, mail-order has made a *lot* of money over the years, so it's not necessarily something that will end up costing money. It's just a matter of working out the details. However, what I would like is, if Obsidz is dead set against offering physical add-on swag, that they just come clean about it. A polite notification clearly stating that they cannot offer physical add-on items due to the prohibitive costs would settle the issue for me. Otherwise, I'll keep pestering on the subject, not because I want to demand it, but because I don't know if it's feasible or not. If it is, they should consider it. If it's not, they should put the matter to rest and we'll move on. Or maybe they should only send manufacture orders for physical rewards after the game is completed, not beforehand as DFA and Banner Saga did. They could always just say "You can have as many physical rewards as you want BUT it's conditional on the game being completed first. If we finish the game but don't have enough to make everything then we're afraid that's all folks." I wonder how that would go down on the internet.....? High-Priest of Funk of the Obsidian Order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsy81 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I have mixed feelings about this. The money raised from the expasions pre-orders will fund the main game or the expansion itself? It doesn't made much sense. Think less as a pre-order and more as an incentive to donate more to have a better base game made. That base game will hopefully then sell more, allowing them to fund the expansion with those more traditional revenues. And as a reward for your faith in them you will then get a copy of the expansion that your pledge allowed them to work their way to. That's the way I view it anyway. 3 High-Priest of Funk of the Obsidian Order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) To be honest, Bootsy, I expected the physical stuff to ship when the game ships anyway. ...But the internet dynamic could be one reason they don't want to undertake the option. It would be a shame, but it would be understandable. EDIT: However, it would be unacceptable for them to say it wouldn't ship at all. If they make decent money on each item, they need to budget the manufacture. ...But don't ship early. I think the problem is really with shipping more than manufacture costs. Edited October 8, 2012 by Cantousent Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merin Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I don't know... the more I think about it, the more I think that including the expansion pack as a reward for the digital tier but at the same time saying that the KS campaign isn't funding the expansion.... is extremely problematic. They have created something of a Gordian knot here. It was probably a big mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 The way I see it is Obsidian are giving a free expansion to a very small amount of investors at a loss. While the majority of people will have to buy the expansion when it's finally released. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zap Rowsdower Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) I have mixed feelings about this. The money raised from the expasions pre-orders will fund the main game or the expansion itself? It doesn't made much sense. Think less as a pre-order and more as an incentive to donate more to have a better base game made. That base game will hopefully then sell more, allowing them to fund the expansion with those more traditional revenues. And as a reward for your faith in them you will then get a copy of the expansion that your pledge allowed them to work their way to. That's the way I view it anyway. This. The expansion pack is probably going to come out regardless, this is a just an incentive to help fund the base game. And now that it was brought to my attention, I like the idea of making the expansion pack download an add-on. I'd probably go for that and it would be more fair to physical tier people or digital tier that don't want to go that high and/or already backed Wasteland 2. Edited October 8, 2012 by Zap Rowsdower 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SqueakyCat Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) The way I see it is Obsidian are giving a free expansion to a very small amount of investors at a loss. While the majority of people will have to buy the expansion when it's finally released. Exactly. From the Comments Sections: "we have updated the last update and are letting everyone know that we are not using the Kickstarter money to fund the expansion. That money will come from us. All the money that we get from Kickstarter will go into the core Project Eternity game." It is simply a tier reward like the Collector's Book and the expansion pack will be available for purchase down the road. Edited October 8, 2012 by SqueakyCat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anek Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Btw, were the $250 and $500 tiers reduced to only 1 digital download each? I thought they had 2 each, when I last looked. But maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me...? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartsib Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Very cool update, but nothing that'll make me up my... Hello, what's this? Hmmm. Broody dark elf in leather? Nice. Make him bi-romancable and I'll add another $30 to my pledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrst10 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Well, on one hand, I'm pleased by the news. On the other hand, uhm, isn't it too soon to plan for an expansion? Obsidian has to be EXTREMELY careful with the planning there, they have no publisher delaying the project (in other words: give them more money) if they hit snags during development, and how are they even going to fund the expansion in the first place? What if the game isn't a success? Are they going to tell people who spent $165 "ooops, no expansion, we guess"? I don't really want to sound like a spoilsport, and I understand that they're trying to raise enthusiasm but.. yeah, any way to assuage my fears? I'm kind of curious as to the accounting. They have got to be anticipating sales to support an expansion, the kickstarter funds are going to the main game. That's okay, but what kind of sales are necessary to independently fund a solid expansion? Remember, expansions are a bit cheaper to make, for starters you have many of the assets and classes already, the world is already created with lore, so need to lose time (and hence money) on that. I imagine that for every backer there are probably a couple of potential customers, so I think that an expansion although still a risk is a well claculated one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 It's an elf. Aren't they all bi-romancable? :Cant's tongue in cheek grin: Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SqueakyCat Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Btw, were the $250 and $500 tiers reduced to only 1 digital download each? I thought they had 2 each, when I last looked. But maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me...? Question: Aren't there normally 3 copies of PE in total at 250 and 500 ? I just see two right now : the box plus a digital copy. So is the extension taking the place of one previous copy ? I can't help but feel that the 500 tiers is seriously lacking -__- Feargus: We will take a look at those and make sure they are correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartsib Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 It's an elf. Aren't they all bi-romancable? :Cant's tongue in cheek grin: Mock not! I'm still mourning being permanently Friends-Zoned with Sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn_ Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) The thing is from someone at 110$ or at 140$ it's a bit unfair. When you're at 140 you're upping your pledge but lose the collector box and when you're at 110$ it makes you 55$ to put for the same thing with wasteland 2 (which is at 20$ pre-order and an expansion). This offer is good only for people like me (who were at 140+shipping which means 160 already). I don't know guys, you should really consider putting another tier between 110$ and 140$ with the expansion but without wasteland 2! Edited October 8, 2012 by Dawn_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Collector boxes and the additonal stuff that comes with it cost money. Also digital tiers cost money. GOG and Steam take a cut as well. It's not as simple as X costs this, Y costs this, then why not make Z costs this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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