The Monk Class

[cyberarmy]

 

 

You are assuming EVERYONE can punch/kick like that.

 

It probably takes years of punching trees too be able to punch like that.

 

Heh, the first time i punched someone in the face i damaged myself more than him probably. I wasnt able to hold mouse properly for 2 days. The horror!

Im pretty ashamed of myself because one of my grandfathers could easily K.O. cows with just slapping("The Ottoman Slap" we call it here) He "trained" himself by slapping marble blocks.

[NOK222]

So yes Thrashman, Armor is still needed.

[Elerond]

Unarmed fighter probably trip (at least tries) armored fighter to ground and then mashes his or her head with his or her kicks.

 

And I would love to see monk builds that are more medieval european martial artist, than Chinese or Japanese or from other asian cultures.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_fighting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterstaff

 

But I don't either object Bruce Lee style monks. But I think that martial artist would be better name for that kind of class than monk, but that is only my opion.

[ravenshrike]

Monks should be martial artists, but their martial prowess should not be limited to just fists/body, they should be able to excell at any weapon.

But most of all they shouldn't be exclusively religious.

 

From the concept art it seems they will use their soulpowers internally and/or focused to their martial prowess.

 

The whole point of the title monk means they are religious.

 

Other weapons? Dear god do not say nunchaku.

Monk originally mean religious hermit. A key part of that being hermit. Mendicant order members were called friars until the term monk spread to them. In any case given the soul-centered nature of the universe, a European version of Shaolin monks popping up would be a very probable event. Especially since they will probably use their soul to bolster their speed and skin, thus making their ability to fight quite real. Edited October 4, 2012 by ravenshrike

[TrashMan]

You are assuming EVERYONE can punch/kick like that.

 

It probably takes years of punching trees too be able to punch like that.

 

Batman can kick a tree down.

 

Cause he's Batman!

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

Don't know why people always get hung up on their experiences in previous games. Just because a 'monk' usually refers to an Eastern philosophical warrior who fights with bare hands and doesn't wear armor doesn't make that the entirety of the concept. Just while reading this thread I've come up with some different concepts for monks to give them more variety:

 

Tattooed Monk: Various designs would give large bonuses in some areas but penalties in others. Bonus to damage in exchange for never being allowed to decline a one-on-one challenge for example. Obviously tattoos are not changable in the field (if at all).

Drunken Master: Somewhat similar to a barbarian's rage, you would have large bonuses when combat starts, but cumulative penalties would start to add up as the fight dragged on.

Weapons Master: Use something longer ranged like a staff to harass enemies in a larger area than a fighter with a sword.

Debilitator: My 3e monk played like this. The ability to disarm, trip, stun, sunder etc can turn the tide against a heavily armored opponent.

Master of the Self: Able to focus the soul to create temporary buffs (self only, which would be different from the kind of buffs a priest can probably give).

 

None of these ideas require a Buddhist outlook or an arbitration to fists as weapons and bare skin as armor.

[Umberlin]

I don't get some of the arguments against it when a Monk gaining defensive auras and offensive energies from their inner energy goes hand in hand with the P:E concept of Souls.

 

I really don't get it when someone asks, "Why can a Monk can punch a full armored Warrior and have it do anything" styled question. I don't get it because they obviously aren't doing the damage with their fist, they're conducting damaging energies through their bodies. The Monk's fists essentially become magical weapons by way of their inner energy. Some settings have even had the Monk's hands visually take on the type of energy involved, for example Shadowbane had its Irekei Sundancer (essentially Sand Elf Monks) whose fists came alight with flames of great intensity.

 

Other settings have had them dealing in divine energies or pure typless energies or electrical energies, or just plain spirit energy.

 

And, finally, the ones that believe an eastern idea shouldn't be in, and I quote, "a Medieval Fantasy Game" . . . this is a fantasy game, that much is true. It is not, however, a historically accurate account of medieval times with absolutely no variation. In addition, the idea of a person strong or skilled enough to fight without arms is not unique to the eastern world.

 

Once you add in the "Souls" idea of P:E and magic the question isn't, "Why should this be here" but, instead, "Why wouldn't it be here, given the idea of souls?" If a person can learn to use their soul to throw around fireballs . . . why wouldn't someone figure out a way to cover themselves in a defensive aura or conduct offensive energies through their hands? It's just, in essence, another way of using magic.

-

 

Also . . . I actually am a fan of the tattooed monk as well, whose tattoos are infused with magical inks, or, where the tattoos themselves are magical symbols of some nature that infuse them with some protection or strength or whatever is applicable to the practical limitations of the setting. Given we're talking about some of the people involved in Planescape: Torment . . . somehow the tattoo thing seems even less far fetched.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Umberlin

[Aedelric]

 

You mean these fine genlemen?

 

 

 

Nice picture you chose, they are a much better are more original type of monk that does not seem so extremely out of place.

[elenuial]

Monks in fantasy don't have to be AZN mastah killahs. Barbarians don't have to be Grignr wannabes. Even if steps are taken to move away from the stereotypes, history matters, and "monks" in D&D inspired fantasy have been exoticised Asian ripoff characters without any respect for the source culture (or bothering to notice there's a difference between various Asian countries), while other aspects of Asian cultures, languages, and even physical characteristics are entirely ignored.

 

It would be like having an rpg set in feudal Japan with carefully crafted classes plucked from the culture and history, but also including one class called "Fencer," depicting a white dude in a kilt, horned viking hat, and leiderhosen who fights with a rapier and dagger Florentine style while talking about all he does for the glory of Allah.

 

(And I would play that character, because that sounds stupidly awesome, but my point stands.)

[Aedelric]

I read a lot of comments arguing for kung-fu monks and they always start with how they "do not get" or "do not understand" or "do not know why" some people are not for them, if they read those peoples comments as to why they are not liked, then surely you would understand. No?

 

The games setting is obviously high fantasy European inspired culture, that much is obvious due to place names seen on the map. The map is not overly large and could not contain the vast array of cultures required to have an area where kung-fu monks could come from. One could say they travelled across the world, but travelling the oceans is neigh on impossible due to sea monsters. That is not to say no one from far off civilizations could not arrive for a visit, but enough to fill a party is unlikely if at all.

 

The clash of European high fantasy and Asian cultures does not mix naturally. Knights that wear plate waving swords, mage's hurling fireballs and soldiers/rangers shooting guns/bows respectively. Then we have a character in the mix throwing punches at people with steel plate, this undermines the other characters by the lack of need for weapons, why use a sword when a fist can punch through the hardest steel?

 

They are almost always semi-naked which is ridiculous, even the lightly armoured mage uses arcane protection. One can state that he uses a divine sort of protection, well fine but so do clerics and priests, but they are still sensible to at least wear tunics or chain mail. Again the classic kung-fu monk undermines the other traditional archetypes.

 

Monks are in, so their is no changing that, but how to we avoid the out of place kung-fu stereotype?

 

 

Well, their have been many interesting suggestions so far, from Hospitilars, to Flagellants to inquisitors. I mixture of these would provide an interesting cultural twist to the monk that is not Asian, still close combat centric and does not demean the other classes by not requiring armour or weapons.

 

The monk could wear European clergy clothing, with chain under. Uses the spiritual side of his soul to invoke some serious inquisitor type banishments or damage, in melee he could use his zealous and suicidal wrath swinging a flail or from the distance use a crossbow in the style of a witch hunter.

 

 

So long as the topic does not continue to degrade into petty spite for and against, perhaps we can come up with some more interesting alternatives to the overused archetype.

[Shadenuat]

I don't get some of the arguments against it when a Monk gaining defensive auras and offensive energies from their inner energy goes hand in hand with the P:E concept of Souls.

 

Everything goes in concept of Souls. If anything, hammering together something as metaphysical as their concept of Souls with standard D&D classes is very crude to begin with, I thought calling "Green Rock" trope on Obsidian after update, but did't, because believe they could get away with it on their quality of writing alone.

 

They started with celtic myth to promote their game. Then they added a gun to it, then a monk.

I hope gun won't be blessed by the power of soul or shoot soulblasts

[Gfted1]

Do you feel gunpowder guns should also be out what with gunpowder having been created in Asia?

[Aedelric]

Do you feel gunpowder guns should also be out what with gunpowder having been created in Asia?

 

No, because it was present during late medieval Europe, primitive firearms. But you did not need me to explain that to you surely?

 

Also, not much to do with monks, is it?

 

Edit - Not worth making a long series of replies;

 

"The games setting is obviously high fantasy European inspired culture, that much is obvious due to place names seen on the map. The map is not overly large and could not contain the vast array of cultures required to have an area where kung-fu monks could come from. One could say they travelled across the world, but travelling the oceans is neigh on impossible due to sea monsters. That is not to say no one from far off civilizations could not arrive for a visit, but enough to fill a party is unlikely if at all."

 

As you can see in my quote from above I say it could happen, same could be applied for guns. But large quantity of specifically kung-fu master monks to populate the land, no, if at all.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Aedelric

[Gfted1]

Do you feel gunpowder guns should also be out what with gunpowder having been created in Asia?

 

No, because it was present during late medieval Europe, primitive firearms. But you did not need me to explain that to you surely?

 

Also, not much to do with monks, is it?

 

Sure it does. You seem to be of the opinion that only gunpowder made it aboard the boat from Asia, but Monks? Thats crazy!

[Amentep]

I read a lot of comments arguing for kung-fu monks and they always start with how they "do not get" or "do not understand" or "do not know why" some people are not for them, if they read those peoples comments as to why they are not liked, then surely you would understand. No?

 

The games setting is obviously high fantasy European inspired culture, that much is obvious due to place names seen on the map. The map is not overly large and could not contain the vast array of cultures required to have an area where kung-fu monks could come from. One could say they travelled across the world, but travelling the oceans is neigh on impossible due to sea monsters. That is not to say no one from far off civilizations could not arrive for a visit, but enough to fill a party is unlikely if at all.

 

The clash of European high fantasy and Asian cultures does not mix naturally. Knights that wear plate waving swords, mage's hurling fireballs and soldiers/rangers shooting guns/bows respectively. Then we have a character in the mix throwing punches at people with steel plate, this undermines the other characters by the lack of need for weapons, why use a sword when a fist can punch through the hardest steel?

 

They are almost always semi-naked which is ridiculous, even the lightly armoured mage uses arcane protection. One can state that he uses a divine sort of protection, well fine but so do clerics and priests, but they are still sensible to at least wear tunics or chain mail. Again the classic kung-fu monk undermines the other traditional archetypes.

 

Monks are in, so their is no changing that, but how to we avoid the out of place kung-fu stereotype?

 

 

Well, their have been many interesting suggestions so far, from Hospitilars, to Flagellants to inquisitors. I mixture of these would provide an interesting cultural twist to the monk that is not Asian, still close combat centric and does not demean the other classes by not requiring armour or weapons.

 

The monk could wear European clergy clothing, with chain under. Uses the spiritual side of his soul to invoke some serious inquisitor type banishments or damage, in melee he could use his zealous and suicidal wrath swinging a flail or from the distance use a crossbow in the style of a witch hunter.

 

 

So long as the topic does not continue to degrade into petty spite for and against, perhaps we can come up with some more interesting alternatives to the overused archetype.

 

To me most of the "monk" suggestions really just seem like alternate priests.

 

I think the only idea of a monk that fits the idea of the "Asian Monk" stereotype while being European (at least for me) is the suggestion to go back to European wrestling / unarmed fighting styles. Pankration has been mentioned it was a cross between pygmachia (fist fighting) and pale (wrestling) and I think this would be a reasonable approach. The problem is that you'd almost for certain have to include grappling in the game to do so. And I doubt that's going to happen.

 

That said you can still have the idea of the person who through training is designed to avoid blows, get in close and strike but have a European based flavor. The "monk" in this case would most likely have been a trained sport fighter whose branched out into adventuring.

 

One thing about the picture though - the monk appears to be clearly older than the other characters - is an age penalty to characters who are monks (to signify the additional years of training maybe?) possible? Or just an older NPC but not a sign of game design?

[Karranthain]

Nice picture you chose, they are a much better are more original type of monk that does not seem so extremely out of place.

 

Read the rest of my post, please

[Aedelric]

Nice picture you chose, they are a much better are more original type of monk that does not seem so extremely out of place.

 

Read the rest of my post, please

 

I did, I did not want to comment though.

[Umberlin]

The games setting is obviously high fantasy European inspired culture, that much is obvious due to place names seen on the map.

 

There are names on the map.The majority of them being in English or combinations of English words with a few exceptions. Which obviously means the world should be populated by tanks, skyscrapers, cheeseburger stands, fish and chip pubs and stores selling AK-47s.

 

Yes I know, they also have Celtic inspired names in there and a pull from Celtic Myth but then . . . there are entire swaths of content to pull inspiration from on that level that never would have gotten to the plate knights and guns setting. They could have used ancient Celtic basis. It was an option. But they didn't. They chose to go beyond that.

 

I'm not sure why you think a fantasy world with fantasy cultures would absolutely without fail be exact replica of one area or another, one people or another, based wholly on the naming convention when plenty of RPGs have used english, latin, gaelic and other real world languages for their naming conventions that have had little or nothing to do with the naming convention. In essence, "they used them because they wanted to" or "because they sounded cool" or "that sounds like a fantasy name right!?"

 

I could create an RPG world and name a place, "The lands of the purple hippo people" and not have it have anything to do with European (because it's in English!) or African (because Hippos! [though hippos did appear in Europe during certain periods of time).

 

The reality is that Europe isn't a single culture. It's many, and not just the ones during this or one other particular period of time. The cultures, peoples, standards and ways of living have changed massively over the history. There was a game about primitive cave-man inspired times that used English naming conventionslanguages that had absolutely no historical accuracy. Why? Because they were primarily fictional, fantastical, with spirits and primitive magic. Magic.

 

The map is not overly large and could not contain the vast array of cultures required to have an area where kung-fu monks could come from.

 

How do you know? Perhaps they have a large immigrant population. Perhaps just to the right of the edge of the map there is a massive area of people that fit perfectly. Or perhaps right there in the land you see you have a people that practice their own form of martial arts, who use their spirits to conduct magical energies to create defensive auras and conduct offensive energies through their fists. You don't know. I don't know. And would they belong if they were there? If Obsidian put them there? The answer is yes.

 

One could say they travelled across the world, but travelling the oceans is neigh on impossible due to sea monsters. That is not to say no one from far off civilizations could not arrive for a visit, but enough to fill a party is unlikely if at all.

 

Yeah, because numbers in the thousands . . . tens of thousands . . . hundreds of thousands, and more, have never crossed oceans in mass for one reason or another. Not to mention there's obviously more land mass to the east and to the north of the shown land mass. Yeah. Masses of people never travel from their own lands, ever, they always stay isolated in their own areas, there has never been a mass exodus of people from a particular area of the world. EVER. And especially not multiple occurences of such mass migrations of people throughout history.

 

 

The clash of European high fantasy and Asian cultures does not mix naturally.

 

"No culture but the Asian cultures have ever held value to the idea of strong people who fought without arms" but, of course, that means nothing. Because it doesn't matter. It's a fantasy world. What a particular culture practices is not limited by historical or cultural accuracy. It's by what Obsidian wants.

 

Knights that wear plate waving swords, mage's hurling fireballs and soldiers/rangers shooting guns/bows respectively. Then we have a character in the mix throwing punches at people with steel plate, this undermines the other characters by the lack of need for weapons, why use a sword when a fist can punch through the hardest steel?

 

For the same reason the Mage throws a fireball at the warrior wearing the hardest steal and it still works. I know your entire point falls apart if you recognize this but it's very simple, because even D&D did it, "They enhance themselves with their inner energies" with wholly meshes with the idea of souls that PE has put forth. Souls used for magical purpose. Obsidian outright released a blurb about this saying, "Anything from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical." Channeling your inner energies to create defensive auras and to conducting offensive energies through your limbs, fists and feet actually goes right along with that. In fact it goes perfectly with it.

 

They are almost always semi-naked which is ridiculous,

 

Up to Obsidian whether they're naked. Up to Obsidian how they're protected. Up to obsidian whether they're protected by magical symbals carved or tattooed onto their skin. Up to Obsidian whether they produce a magical aura that protects them. Up to obsidian whether the clothing they do wear is western, eastern, middle eastern, african, sourth american or wholly unique in style. Up to Obsidian whether they exist at all. And they do.

 

Most of all, it's not ridiculous.

 

even the lightly armoured mage uses arcane protection.

 

Sort of like Monks in most settings enhance their bodies, regeneration or manipulate energies around them to protect themselves. Or how they sometimes are have protective symbols carved or inked into their skin. Or any number of other ways that it's been done. Sometimes they even wear thick metal bracers to defend themselves. In other settings they wear gauntlets or gloves that are magically enhanced either for defense or offense or even for both. And then there are the claw/knuckle wearing monks. Some have even used Bo staff type weapons for defense and/or offense.

 

In P:E the magic association is especially correct, because, obviously, it is magic. A different use of magic, but still 100% magic. And, for that matter, Monks in various settings aren't always 'nearly naked' as you mentioned earlier, or even Eastern in clothing/armor style, because plenty of Monk-like incarnations have worn clothing or armor. But at the end of the day even a completely naked Monk that refused to use anything would make sense if they were channeling their inner energies to create magical protections and conduct offensive magical energies through their bodies.

 

I don't get some of the arguments against it when a Monk gaining defensive auras and offensive energies from their inner energy goes hand in hand with the P:E concept of Souls.

 

Everything goes in concept of Souls. If anything, hammering together something as metaphysical as their concept of Souls with standard D&D classes is very crude to begin with, I thought calling "Green Rock" trope on Obsidian after update, but did't, because believe they could get away with it on their quality of writing alone.

 

They started with celtic myth to promote their game. Then they added a gun to it, then a monk.

I hope gun won't be blessed by the power of soul or shoot soulblasts

 

They had a gun using Witch character shooting arcane bullets in another one of their games . . .

Edited October 4, 2012 by Umberlin

[Aedelric]

snip...

 

I take it you are for kung-fu monks then, not everyone has to agree.

[Karranthain]

I did, I did not want to comment though.

 

Fair enough, though that's a strange comment to make if you consider I was discussing flagellants; they're not exactly sane individuals. Doesn't your first post reference them as a good suggestion?

[Umberlin]

snip...

 

I take it you are for kung-fu monks then, not everyone has to agree.

 

I am able to accept bare handed Monks punching through plate, and defending against magic and weapons, if, and only if, they're doing so through means that are made readily and visually obvious - such as defensive auras, and conducting offensive energies through their hands/feet/etc.

 

What I'm for?

 

What I for is an Ancient Fantasy game with world that's almost alien on a visual level. I'm for a complete escape from the common fantasy races and the beast+human combo races. What I'm for is a complete escape from the typical fantasy classes, weapons and armor where the plate wearing knight with a sword and shield is so common that everyone in the village used to be one. I'm for a setting where the most common weapon to use in battle would be a spear-like or polearm-like weapon, where leather armor slightly plated with bronze at vital points is standard soldier garb. Where magic pulls from the weird lesser used schools of magic like illusion, divination and transmutation instead of the usual evocation fireball throwing nonsense.

 

What I'm for is a setting that pulls from some of the most ancient cultures our world has ever seen, and less used cultures, instead of the typical roman, medieval and other common eras used. Ancient South American cultures and Ancient Middle Eastern cultures, ancient peoples like the Sumerians. A setting where Chariot warfare is new and the height of war waging technology.

 

A setting where the Gods aren't unseen all powerful beings, or Gods at all, but very powerful or simply very knowledgeable mortal beings who have conducted peoples to their liking or shared their knowledge in a helpful manner, where they aren't rare but there are instead thousands of them using or helping or ignoring the far larger, and far, far more primitive peoples as they please. A setting that meshes primtive people and primitive technologies with magics and 'ancient advanced technologies that are easily mistaken as magical in nature' used by those beings who rule over or enslave or teach or ignore the primitive peoples.

 

-

 

A Monk is most definitely not what I am for, but I can accept it.

 

Do you feel gunpowder guns should also be out what with gunpowder having been created in Asia?

 

No, because it was present during late medieval Europe, primitive firearms. But you did not need me to explain that to you surely?

 

"Fantasy game made by a western developer" does not mean, "Historically accurate account of medieval times without variation" regardless of its inspirations, since inspirations can be multiple, which they are since we're also seeing a Monk.

 

Do you feel gunpowder guns should also be out what with gunpowder having been created in Asia?

 

No, because it was present during late medieval Europe, primitive firearms. But you did not need me to explain that to you surely?

 

Also, not much to do with monks, is it?

 

Sure it does. You seem to be of the opinion that only gunpowder made it aboard the boat from Asia, but Monks? Thats crazy!

 

Edited October 4, 2012 by Umberlin

[Kissamies]

Still, it's not really the origin of the class I am more concerned with, rather it's mechanics. Monks are often tend to be boring to create, level up and dress up. You can't give them weapons, because you instantly lock their martial ability. You don't give them armor, as it locks their Wisdom-based AC bonus. So they just kinda run around naked, getting fixed feats you can't really tweak with, acting as fighters for players who can't create a decent fighter. That's how I felt about them in NWN1-2, Wizardry and Might and Magic anyway.

Isn't that the point, however? There is plenty of other classes to dress up with all sorts of +2 trinkets. It's nice to have a character type that doesn't rely on gear so much. The abilities could be a bit more flexible than average D&D monk level up path, though.

[Umberlin]

Still, it's not really the origin of the class I am more concerned with, rather it's mechanics. Monks are often tend to be boring to create, level up and dress up. You can't give them weapons, because you instantly lock their martial ability. You don't give them armor, as it locks their Wisdom-based AC bonus. So they just kinda run around naked, getting fixed feats you can't really tweak with, acting as fighters for players who can't create a decent fighter. That's how I felt about them in NWN1-2, Wizardry and Might and Magic anyway.

Isn't that the point, however? There is plenty of other classes to dress up with all sorts of +2 trinkets. It's nice to have a character type that doesn't rely on gear so much. The abilities could be a bit more flexible than average D&D monk level up path, though.

 

That said even D&D styled Monks had options outside the the barehanded.

[Aedelric]

 

Fair enough, though that's a strange comment to make if you consider I was discussing flagellants; they're not exactly sane individuals. Doesn't your first post reference them as a good suggestion?

 

Yes. from page one by Shadenuat.

 

I agree with your post, but a direct copy of Warhammer though not overused would not be a better solution, they would have to be unique to Eternity in some way. Many of their aspects could be used in an intriguing class which really would be good, also having a fairly insane zealot companion would be quite a bit of fun as you said.

 

I think your post spoke for itself.

[Karranthain]

Yes. from page one by Shadenuat.

 

I agree with your post, but a direct copy of Warhammer though not overused would not be a better solution, they would have to be unique to Eternity in some way. Many of their aspects could be used in an intriguing class which really would be good, also having a fairly insane zealot companion would be quite a bit of fun as you said.

 

I think your post spoke for itself.

 

Absolutely, I just used Warhammer's design as a point of reference. I might actually create a new topic to discuss the flagellants as a possible class or maybe subclass for the monk/priest.

 

And yeah, I can imagine they'd make for really interesting companions.