The Monk Class

[Aedelric]

If this thread had a poll, I'd be voting against monks in the strongest terms possible.

 

Yea, I should have added one, but I did not think at the time and given my opinion is to drop martial arts and have a different kind of monk entirely, that would have coloured the poll a bit.

 

I think the community is slightly divided on the subject, some like and some dislike, Obsidian has no hope of satisfying everyone with this class.

[rjshae]

If this thread had a poll, I'd be voting against monks in the strongest terms possible.

 

Yea, I should have added one, but I did not think at the time and given my opinion is to drop martial arts and have a different kind of monk entirely, that would have coloured the poll a bit.

 

I think the community is slightly divided on the subject, some like and some dislike, Obsidian has no hope of satisfying everyone with this class.

 

I'll bet every class except the core four have some opponents who would love to see them gone. It's a compromise.

[Aedelric]

True Rjshae, but with those classes the majority almost always swings to the positive, not monks which seem equal.

[FlintlockJazz]

I see, I do not think that solves much, fist fighting mages and sword wielding paladins while semi-naked is insane. A different martial arts does not fix that discrepancy, regardless of background and lore.

 

I actually agree with you. I don't think they fit either, and the monk in the big pic just looks out of place to me. I'm not talking about fixing them by changing the martial arts used, the point I was making is that there are other types of martial artists other than the Asian monks we see all the time and that if they really feel the need to include such a martial artist they should consider drawing from them instead. I wasn't saying that they should use capoiera but that the guys who practised it weren't an order of bald monks preaching some philosophy. Hell I reckon they should drop the name monk and be some sort of order of martial mages or swordmasters instead, but that's just my own desires.

Edited October 10, 2012 by FlintlockJazz

[FlintlockJazz]

See how enjoyable and/or different from the other stated classes a non asian style incarnation of monk would be. It would end up being worse than the worse monk class in any game to date I bet.

 

Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller were monks, and they were serious badasses. Taking inspiration from non-asian monks would probably do a better job of challenging stereotypes and misconceptions I think...

[Umberlin]

At the end of the day the fighting style is a pretty moot point. They could be using nothing but a western boxing style and it still wouldn't matter. The damage isn't from their fist, it's from the magic encasing their fists. The fighting style and clothing style fit as long as Obsidian make them fit in the lore, whatever those choices of style might be. The damage dealing components still seems to be their ability to draw on their soul to enhance their bodies and create magical effects like the glowing fists which are obviously a measure of offensive nature.

 

From looking at the visuals alone . . . obviously we can only know so much but the concepts behind an offensive magical field surrounding your fist is right in line with the idea of touch based spells, only here we see a class that essentially specializing in touch ranged spells and has worked on their physical prowess, as a martial art, if you will, in order to ensure that they get in range. It would also explain the idea of enhancing their bodies, magically, in other ways. For more speed or more durability or to emmitt a short range defensive field.

 

I wouldn't look at the Monk in the art any differently than as a Wizard casting a spell, with the exception that he has to touch you for it to go off (unless they allow the Monk to hand long ranged abilities, which some Monk style classes in some RPGs have had). Anything more remains to be seen obviously.

[anek]

He was a monk and watching him punching and kicking at my gold dragon companion was absolutely preposterous.

 

Having a gold dragon companion is also preposterous.

It's fantasy, not a historical representation of medieval Europe.

[elminster]

I fear that a monk like in Baldurs Gate 2 would not fit into partyplay quiet well. He could do everything alone. So when implementing why not adding something like a buffing from a monk for single characters for which he has to concentrate so he cant do other things. I think that was done with some priest spells in past so it would fit in the religious background quiete well.

[Hormalakh]

Secret of the Kells, Avatar: two very good and completely different ways of considering the monk.

 

To me, the monk signifies more than any other class, true devotion to soul and spirituality. While the priest prays to his god for magic, the monk looks into his inner spirit to bring out that which will aid him in battle and outside. I think if we start looking at the monk from a deeply spiritual being as opposed to this overly strong martial artist, we'll see that almost all monks throughout the world share some very striking similarities.

 

1- esotericism. Their abilities to live without much: this explains why a monk doesn't us armor or a weapon (for the most part). It is not that the monk cannot use a sword, but rather the sword covers a part of his spirit and soul. He cannot channel his energies through that which is not organic. Thus, they live simple lives without much and travel the world as beggars.

 

2- spirituality. Monks travel the world (or stay in monastaries) to better understand that which is within them and outside of them. They are the true travelers, as they travel the spiritual realms while treating the body as an organic shell. Thier strength comes from within. they know that we are all one (or something like that) in this world and thus they know that reliance only on self is futile because we share links to our souls. Thus they try to travel in groups of other monks. sometimes they travel with groups of other travelers to "feel" their souls and spirits. Like a cup of tea. Each tea is different. Jasmine, Earl grey, Red Roibose, white lotus, etc. They each have a "color" to the soul and this diversity both distinguishes us but also brings us together (tea is tea afterall). The goal is not to find the best tea, but to experience the different flavors.

 

3- Extreme devotion and discipline. While priests are devoted to their gods, monks are devoted to discplining their spirits and bodies. They fast to remind themselves of suffering. They punish their bodies to remind themselves that the material world is fleeting (as their pain is). They train their bodies to withstand any environment, so that their spirits can do the same.

 

What do you guys think? Different enough from the paladin/priests that you all were thinking? Spiritual yes. Not necessarily religious.

 

Edit: More thoughts that I had. Anyone seen the Avatar:Legend of Korra stuff? So there's this whole spiritual bending vibe to the show. The main character is an awesome fighter but she cannot tap into her spirituality and when she can she can begin to bend the spirits of her opponents. Maybe the monks in this world have learned things about the souls that wizards have not? Perhaps monks fight with what looks like martial arts, but in reality they are attacking the souls and spirits of their opponents? Armor does them no good because monks have disciplined themselves to withstand any sort of physical damage and what truly hurts them is a soul attack or a spirit attack. They do not wear armor and their attacks are not aimed at the physical bodies of their enemies but rather at their spirits/souls. They don't use weapons (or do - depends on where you're from? or what philosophies you've studied) to focus these energies against the souls of their enemies. Different monks know different things about the souls of the denizens of this world that many others do not. Different kinds of monks (celtic type monks vs. Asiatic type monks have focused on different aspects of the soul/spirit in this world and thus their attacks follow these philosophies)

Edited October 12, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Aedelric]

The new monk image does nothing but reinforce my concerns. He fits the exactly into the dire stereotype as if cut and pasted from another popular class based roleplaying franchise.

 

Semi-naked fist fighting idiot, he totally undermines the other companions who wear realistic armour and wield actual weapons like a normal person would. I fear his inclusion is nothing more than to satisfy kung-fu fanboys who think of it as some sort of magical movie land art form that can dodge bullets an punch through walls. *Sigh*

 

What a wasted opportunity I think, they could have done something truly original with the class. Especially because Eternity is a land without the printing press and during that time Monks are the ones that most often wrote books, they were educated, devout sometimes healers or zealous warriors in battle with chain-mail and shield. We could have had something like a flagellant or an inquisitor, crazed with devotion or fierce in conviction ready to smite the unbelievers, but no we get a boring ill fitting Shaolin wannabe.

 

I know who is going to spend all his time in the Adventurers Hall... Forton. Just a shame that would never remove all reference to them from the game, but I will not let that stop me enjoying the rest of it.

 

I am disappointed in you Obsidian! But only with this lapse of judgement.

[Karranthain]

Can't say I'm a big fan of the concept art myself, so unless Forton's a really interesting companion he won't be in my party

[Tale]

Can't say I'm a big fan of the concept art myself, so unless Forton's a really interesting companion he won't be in my party

I hope he's a drunk.

[Umberlin]

The new monk image does nothing but reinforce my concerns. He fits the exactly into the dire stereotype as if cut and pasted from another popular class based roleplaying franchise.

 

It's almost like PE pulls heavily from past games in all of its class selections, with a slight twist here and there. Which has been obvious from the very first class announcements.

 

Semi-naked fist fighting idiot,

 

You do realize we don't know very much about armor in this game right? There's been a lot of discussion about the Wizard, for instance. The Wizard can wear armor. Oddly the D&D Wizard could too . . . at a cost. You see we don't know if wearing armor/certain weapons includes a penalty of some form yet. If they do, you may well see your cloth wearing Wizard right along side the obviously cloth wearing Monk from the art. Even without a penalty we may see classes in light or no armor for particular builds, we simply do not know yet. Given there are obviously light armor forms in the game, from what we've seen, there are obviously going to be classes that wear them, or that simply may choose to wear them for particular builds.

 

he totally undermines the other companions who wear realistic armour and wield actual weapons like a normal person would.

 

So a class that draws upon mystical inner energies, that's right in there with other classes that draw upon mystical inner energies, to create magical effects with which to defend themselves, or attack others undermines . . . the other classes that draw upon mystical inner energies . . . to create magical effects with which to defend themselves, or attack others. Got it. Noted.

 

I fear his inclusion is nothing more than to satisfy kung-fu fanboys who think of it as some sort of magical movie land art form that can dodge bullets an punch through walls. *Sigh*

 

Wait . . . wait . . . let me get this straight . . . you think that something in a fictional high fantasy land, involving fictional high fantasy classes several of which use fictional, magical high fantasy abilities to accomplish their goals . . . is obviously meant to pander to people that like magical high fantasy elements?

 

What a wasted opportunity I think, they could have done something truly original with the class. Especially because Eternity is a land without the printing press and during that time Monks are the ones that most often wrote books, they were educated, devout sometimes healers or zealous warriors in battle with chain-mail and shield. We could have had something like a flagellant or an inquisitor, crazed with devotion or fierce in conviction ready to smite the unbelievers, but no we get a boring ill fitting Shaolin wannabe.

 

From what little we know . . . the Priest gets awful close to what you're asking already. I can see why they wouldn't want to retread that well trodden ground. Honestly what you're asking for, even barring the Priest, isn't exactly original. It's well tread in Western games. The chain mail wearing, blunt instrument weilding, shield bearing, learned, bookish, holy man is . . . not a new concept.

 

Not that this will change your mind. Everything from forum posters, to Obsidian's write ups themselves, have justified how a person can do what the Monk does in this setting. It was obvious from day one that it was possible for a Monk styled class to exist, as pulling upon inner spiritual energies to create magical effects, heal, or enhance the body is quite in like with the idea of a Monk. Making the Monk as it exists quite proper for this setting.

 

Again, the Monk sounds like a touch ranged mage who became physically fit, quick and strong in order to get close fast and unleash their touch range magics. The idea of encasing your fist in magical energies, and using it to harm an enemy, sounds a lot like several touch range Wizard spells. A class that uses magic in this way is hardly out of place in a setting where several classes use magic in their own unique ways. But that's been explained to you. And every time you post you act like even Obsidian's own lore write ups don't exist, let alone the explanations for how a Monk might work given the lore we've been provided in combination with the art provided.

[Karranthain]

Can't say I'm a big fan of the concept art myself, so unless Forton's a really interesting companion he won't be in my party

I hope he's a drunk.

 

Sold.

 

He sure looks the part.

[Arundor]

I'm very happy with the concept art. Obviously it doesn't show us everything, but it does seem to indicate that Monks will be designed the way I hoped they would be.

 

Great job Obsidian.

[Umberlin]

It's also of note that there is a weapon of some sort on his belt, suggesting there may be builds involving weapons of one sort or another. I'm not sure if it's a blunt weapon or a sheathed blade of some sort though.

[Aedelric]

Snip..

 

I disagree and no one has justified anything, just excused.

[Osvir]

From what little we know . . . the Priest gets awful close to what you're asking already. I can see why they wouldn't want to retread that well trodden ground. Honestly what you're asking for, even barring the Priest, isn't exactly original. It's well tread in Western games. The chain mail wearing, blunt instrument weilding, shield bearing, learned, bookish, holy man is . . . not a new concept..

 

It could be!

 

This is what I want to see when I speak about "Monk":

http://www.traveladv....ks01.jpg<br />http://bulldogbillio...ire_kungfu3.jpg

Not the standard western view Gung-ho Kung-Fu Bruce Lee shrieking rage fighter with the "Fist of Doom"-brawler:

http://www.amoymagic...u/kungfu2sm.jpg

 

A class that follow the heart and soul, the inner path. Some might think it's "Oh well that's part of his personality" but really, it's part of his profession, life, choices and spirituality. E.g., class. It's a discipline, not a fighting style.

 

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu8soAc-MIg

Edited October 12, 2012 by Osvir

[Umberlin]

Snip..

 

I disagree and no one has justified anything, just excused.

 

What you mean is you snip their posts without reading, disregarding anything and everything, even when they're outright quoting you the lore Obsidian have presented us so far on things like the Soul, how it can be used, such as to enhance the body. They well explained the idea that drawing upon the soul can create effects anywhere from the superhuman to the explosively magical.

 

They have other classes besides the Monk that use magical effects to achieve their goals, of course, as explained, repeatedly, but somehow it's only wrong when the Monk does it. Somehow, in your mind, while the other magic using classes still use gear of some sort, the Monk . . . is apparently naked in your mind . . . despite it obviously still having gear. Despite the types of games this one is pulling from having Monks, as well, that also still required gear, even for the hand-to-hand builds.

 

And so much more, repeatedly explained in detail. But none of that happened because:

 

"Snip."

 

But go ahead, keep making it out that the Monk is a naked man that punches through plate despite for no reason at all that is an exact replica of Shaolin Monks somehow despite looking nothing like them. Because it's obviously not a very fictional take on the Monk fueled by magic, wearing clothes, and obviously armed with at least one weapon besides the magical effects he uses to defend himself, and attack his enemies.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Umberlin

[Aedelric]

What you mean is you snip their posts without reading,

 

I read the post, the cut quote to `snip´ is to reduce quote spam. Anyone interested in reading your post can, they do not need me quoting to do so.

 

As to expecting me to reply and counter everything you say, I only reply to what interests me, just because you feel compelled to write on and on attempting to justify everything you believe is right, does not mean everyone else is expected address your opinions.

 

You want a fight that I have no interest in giving, it is evident by the fact you misquote and misread what is said. You made your point and I made mine, we do not agree, their is little else to talk about with you specifically beyond.

 

"I disagree"

 

 

Though things seem to be more and more set in stone I think the topic still has uses, I am quite interested in other peoples opinions of what a good alternative could be and how to not make monks stereotyped. Great suggestions have been made so far that are much better (Personal opinion) than the kung-fu monk.

[Osvir]

More information on the monk in the PC Gamer live chat:

Josh Sawyer: we're actually pretty early in developing the companion ideas and i want to work more with george and avellone on fleshing out their story arcs. i don't remember the order in which each class was unlocked, but one of them was forton, the monk. forton is a big believer in mortification of the flesh. and the use of mind-expanding drugs. we won't be having companions for every single class, but that's one of the reasons we wanted to develop the adventurer's hall. that will allow you to supplement/build your party however you would like.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh

[Umberlin]

As to expecting me to reply and counter everything you say, I only reply to what interests me, just because you feel compelled to write on and on attempting to justify everything you believe is right, does not mean everyone else is expected address your opinions.

 

Who said anything about right? I told you what is there, as others have, and have you potential reasons for what is there such as pointing out Obsidian's own lore, and typical uses of such mechanics from the sort of game this one is pulling from. My idea of right? My idea of right you read earlier in the thread, and ignored just as readily as you ignore everything that doesn't continue your continued, "It punches through armor with its fist and its naked" description of the Monk, which, now as then, isn't even right by the art or how Obsidian have presented the use of the Soul to magical effect in this setting.

 

My idea of right?

 

My idea of right was very simple. No traditional fantasy races. No traditional fantasy classes. No traditional fantasy weapons. No traditional fantasy armor. No pulling from the typical historical/cultural inspirations (medieval/roman/etc) and instead pull from one or several of the most ancient (one of the ancient middle eastern cultures/sumerian) or lesser used (one of the sourth american cultures/mayan) civilizations on Earth as basic, but not absolute, inspiration. For the world to be ancient, low tech, low magic and almost alien in its visual qualities to escape from being yet another romp through environments we've seen so many times my eyes could bleed. Axe the swords. Axe the plate. Axe the usual fantasy weapons and armor, go for more primitive, odd, weaponry and armor and clothing and architecture and writing and everything that fits within the logic and times of a fictional culture and its fictional people.

 

And you think the one solitary magically fueled Monk annoys you?

 

I'd have prefered something else too, but I'm willing to see what they're going for and try and figure out how it fits in the logic of the world and lore they've presented so far. You on the other hand seem to think it's more appropriate to tell Obsidian how disappointed you are in them, as if you're talking from a superior standpoint - but it comes off as a whining child throwing a tantrum because his parents got him the wrong toy.

[ArchBeast]

I don't like the idea of D&D monks. They always seem to me like cross between songoku and superman. HAW can you crush an steel plate armor with your fist ? Even with a steel mace you will have problems.

 

Secodry monk in europe don't fight so the ony one that may be consider as (father ideas) are east monks, like szaolin monk etc. IF anyone of you seen 1 document about them you will know that they also used spears, a some light swords (chinas sword - something like japanese katana)they used fists and hand to hand figt becouse most od easter wariors used ligh armor or non and hand to hand was usefull when you don't have weapon.

[Hormalakh]

Monks in any country would have to defend themselves from outside attackers. But fighting is not the way of the monk: spirituality is.

[Karranthain]

More information on the monk in the PC Gamer live chat:

 

Josh Sawyer: we're actually pretty early in developing the companion ideas and i want to work more with george and avellone on fleshing out their story arcs. i don't remember the order in which each class was unlocked, but one of them was forton, the monk. forton is a big believer in mortification of the flesh. and the use of mind-expanding drugs. we won't be having companions for every single class, but that's one of the reasons we wanted to develop the adventurer's hall. that will allow you to supplement/build your party however you would like.

 

http://en.wikipedia....on_of_the_flesh

 

Flagellant?

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61078-flagellant-class-companion/