Alternatives to Vancian or Cooldowns? Other suggestions?

[Amentep]

You know what I really hated about BG2 - the fatigue mechanic when traveling.

 

Okay so I choose to go somewhere on the map that'll take me 18 hours to travel and I've already been up for 10.

 

So I arrive and I'm immediately fatigued. Is my party too stupid to sleep while traveling and instead they have to sleep when they're 10 feet from the shadow temple of evil?

 

So I'd say the sleep mechanics in IE wasn't exactly my favorite. And maybe that's why they're looking at sleep spamming and since sleep is part of the D&D method of magic recouperation, that's why they're having to try to create a new magic system to mimic (but not exactly) the old system?

 

Dunno.

[DocDoomII]

 

So I arrive and I'm immediately fatigued. Is my party too stupid to sleep while traveling and instead they have to sleep when they're 10 feet from the shadow temple of evil?

 

So very true, yesterday I travelled from point A to B (don't remember the actual locations) and it was something like 36 hours of travel and bam, all fatigued. Lol wut? What about sleeping while on the road?

[SGray]

Yes, it is enough. You jsut dont' get the system, do you?

I understand that system perfectly well. Simply don't like to manage rest meaninglessly, just to compensate character's inability to handle his daily routine without you clicking a button.

 

You will fatigue even if you go around naked. The armor is not the point. It just increases your fatigue generation, but it happens without it.

You can sit in your house all day doing nothing and by the end of the day you will still be tired.

Epic hero, tired by sitting in the chair, that's... something new ) Are you sure, that "exhaustion" from doing nothing all day would anyhow prevent you from being effective in battle?

If character is stacking exhaustion from day to day, while not performing anything special - that means he can't handle ordinary things. Maybe another button for brushing his teeth?

My point is: is it fun to manage ordinary daily fatigue, happening as you said whenever you doing something or not? Is it fun to explicitly send you character to bed every ordinary day? Newer was fun of sims.

If you are forced to rest too often it is just simplifying things to: why not to rest another time, just in case? Other side: If that's something special and happens only occasionally - you could make such rest more restrictive, more demanding in resources (if any), and more dangerous. More fun and memorable overall.

 

Point is that you won't be. You WILL be exhausted after 20 hours of wlakign around

After 20 hours of walking around i'll drop half-dead. Presumed i hadn't stopped for a while, camped to have a meal, or simply sat on my back to respire.

 

Everything you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed drains your fatigue - slowly but surely.

So, everyday 8 hour sleep, controlled by player as a must?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Haha what? Do you not believe that ordinary human can accustom to additional 10 kg on his shoulders? Hell, differences in self weight could be twice more than that.

Do you really believe that you ever could tire master of sports in fencing? No matter what are you doing with your cold weapon. Running straight from him possibly, the only thing.

[TrashMan]

You know what I really hated about BG2 - the fatigue mechanic when traveling.

 

Okay so I choose to go somewhere on the map that'll take me 18 hours to travel and I've already been up for 10.

 

So I arrive and I'm immediately fatigued. Is my party too stupid to sleep while traveling and instead they have to sleep when they're 10 feet from the shadow temple of evil?

 

I guess the game assumes the party is making best speed.

 

Surely you want to be fresh, so you don't want to sleep too far away. Neither you want to be too close.

Would oyu prefer it if hte player cna draw a path on the map and set resting points?

 

Speaking of which, why didn't you rest before starting the journey in hte first place?

[Amentep]

You know what I really hated about BG2 - the fatigue mechanic when traveling.

 

Okay so I choose to go somewhere on the map that'll take me 18 hours to travel and I've already been up for 10.

 

So I arrive and I'm immediately fatigued. Is my party too stupid to sleep while traveling and instead they have to sleep when they're 10 feet from the shadow temple of evil?

 

I guess the game assumes the party is making best speed.

 

Surely you want to be fresh, so you don't want to sleep too far away. Neither you want to be too close.

Would oyu prefer it if hte player cna draw a path on the map and set resting points?

 

Speaking of which, why didn't you rest before starting the journey in hte first place?

 

Well sometimes I forgot how long I had been awake until I got the tired tag and then realized what I did, but wasn't it possible in BG2 for some distances to take over 1 day to travel, so you'd always end up tired (or am I misremembering?)

Edited October 5, 2012 by Amentep

[TrashMan]

I understand that system perfectly well. Simply don't like to manage rest meaninglessly, just to compensate character's inability to handle his daily routine without you clicking a button.

 

You understand nothing. Other wise you wouldn't be arguing.

 

 

 

Epic hero, tired by sitting in the chair, that's... something new ) Are you sure, that "exhaustion" from doing nothing all day would anyhow prevent you from being effective in battle?

If character is stacking exhaustion from day to day, while not performing anything special - that means he can't handle ordinary things. Maybe another button for brushing his teeth?

 

Why would it mean he can't handle ordinary things? Don't you handle ordinary thing and do stuff over the day?

 

 

My point is: is it fun to manage ordinary daily fatigue, happening as you said whenever you doing something or not? Is it fun to explicitly send you character to bed every ordinary day? Newer was fun of sims.

If you are forced to rest too often it is just simplifying things to: why not to rest another time, just in case? Other side: If that's something special and happens only occasionally - you could make such rest more restrictive, more demanding in resources (if any), and more dangerous. More fun and memorable overall.

 

Is it fun to chug poitions? FUN is relative. I can easily consider half the stuff you find interesting in RPGs to be utterly boring.

 

And why would it be tediosu to manage ordinary fatigue? It's not really hard to manage to begin with.

You already had that in BG and IWD....don't you recall characters getting sleepy?

 

So no..I don't really get your point.

 

 

 

 

 

Point is that you won't be. You WILL be exhausted after 20 hours of wlakign around

After 20 hours of walking around i'll drop half-dead. Presumed i hadn't stopped for a while, camped to have a meal, or simply sat on my back to respire.

 

Even with pauses it will still tire you.

Again, breath and fatigue...two different things in essence.

 

 

 

Everything you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed drains your fatigue - slowly but surely.

So, everyday 8 hour sleep, controlled by player as a must?

 

Not as a must.

But hey, if you do choose to go on two days without sleeping then you face the consequences.

And no, you don't have to sleep exactly 8 hours.

People can generaly go on for a while with shorter sleep cycles. Atlough every once and a while they really do need a long sleep.

 

 

 

Haha what? Do you not believe that ordinary human can accustom to additional 10 kg on his shoulders? Hell, differences in self weight could be twice more than that.

Do you really believe that you ever could tire master of sports in fencing? No matter what are you doing with your cold weapon. Running straight from him possibly, the only thing.

 

You speak from ignorance.

If you knew anything about armor, weapons and fighting you wouldn't be saying that.

 

Armor and physical activity are tireing. Even light armor. Some more than others.

For one, it is hot in armors. For two they add extra weight. For three, there's the aditional weight of weapons and everything else that is in your backpack.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ymBF3nfhCU&feature=player_detailpage#t=127s

 

 

Check the 2 minute and 5:50 minute marks.

Edited October 5, 2012 by TrashMan

[TrashMan]

Well sometimes I forgot how long I had been awake until I got the tired tag and then realized what I did, but wasn't it possible in BG2 for some distances to take over 1 day to travel, so you'd always end up tired (or am I misremembering?)

 

 

Yes, the old IE games lack any fatigue indicator. That was the problem as you coudln't tell how tired the party was.

[Jaesun]

Well sometimes I forgot how long I had been awake until I got the tired tag and then realized what I did, but wasn't it possible in BG2 for some distances to take over 1 day to travel, so you'd always end up tired (or am I misremembering?)

 

 

Yes, the old IE games lack any fatigue indicator. That was the problem as you coudln't tell how tired the party was.

 

Um a fatigue icon would show on the characters portrait?

[Kiarean]

Personally, I think the problem isn't the system, but the assumptions behind the system. A magic user in D&D can't meaningfully contribute to very many battles before using up their good spells. This leads to prioritization, which while potentially cool and tactical, is boring; it leads to battles where the mage is left in the back waiting for the battle to end. This is compounded by auto-attacks for non-casters, which doesn't work well for video games as it leads to the player also sitting around waiting for the battle to end. It's especially problematic when there's little way to avoid taking SOME damage, turning it into a matter of attrition. Because of this, the system has to allow some way to recover, and the D&D solutions don't work because the assumptions between pen and paper and video game RPGs are different.

 

My suggestion would be to not base it on fatigue or sleep. Instead, tie the magic limitations to backlash. You could have subtle affects that merely bend the laws of reality; these would be less powerful but more readily available, the kind of stuff your mage can do on a small scale to help out in battle while still keeping the 'big guns' for the more dangerous foes. Then you would have overt effects which outright break the laws of reality, doing impossible things - turning someone to stone, a lightning bolt out of a clear blue sky, etc; This stuff would cause a build up of negative forces in the mage which have to be safely vented or else it causes some deleterous effect. Venting would be done through meditation, with each hour eliminating one unit of buildup. Of course, this process couldn't be interrupted without consequence, so while you could do it anywhere, if some hostile force happened upon the caster his companions would have to protect him or risk the process backfiring spectacularly, even worse than the mage pushing themselves with lots of buildup.

[Osvir]

Personally, I think the problem isn't the system, but the assumptions behind the system. A magic user in D&D can't meaningfully contribute to very many battles before using up their good spells. This leads to prioritization, which while potentially cool and tactical, is boring; it leads to battles where the mage is left in the back waiting for the battle to end. This is compounded by auto-attacks for non-casters, which doesn't work well for video games as it leads to the player also sitting around waiting for the battle to end. It's especially problematic when there's little way to avoid taking SOME damage, turning it into a matter of attrition. Because of this, the system has to allow some way to recover, and the D&D solutions don't work because the assumptions between pen and paper and video game RPGs are different.

 

My suggestion would be to not base it on fatigue or sleep. Instead, tie the magic limitations to backlash. You could have subtle affects that merely bend the laws of reality; these would be less powerful but more readily available, the kind of stuff your mage can do on a small scale to help out in battle while still keeping the 'big guns' for the more dangerous foes. Then you would have overt effects which outright break the laws of reality, doing impossible things - turning someone to stone, a lightning bolt out of a clear blue sky, etc; This stuff would cause a build up of negative forces in the mage which have to be safely vented or else it causes some deleterous effect. Venting would be done through meditation, with each hour eliminating one unit of buildup. Of course, this process couldn't be interrupted without consequence, so while you could do it anywhere, if some hostile force happened upon the caster his companions would have to protect him or risk the process backfiring spectacularly, even worse than the mage pushing themselves with lots of buildup.

 

This I like. Best suggestion so far imo.

 

It kind of sounds awfully authentic too. Someone drawing powers from the soul, should affect the soul too, no? If I have 100% Soul I would be at my prime, but casting a spell that drains 25% of my Soul I should feel the effects of it, kind of like surging your own power/strength. If the Soul is tied to some sort of "Life force", then this would mean that "Magic isn't cast without consequences"?

 

EDIT:

"Peter, with great power, comes great responsibility" xD I couldn't help myself

Edited October 6, 2012 by Osvir

[metiman]

Wow. That video seems to demonstrate that at least low tech, cheap chainmail, which is probably precisely what combatants had back in the day was more or less useless. Well, worse than useless because it was heavy and (in warm climates) hot. Obviously high tech, modern, well designed chain mail does not have to be that way. Chain mail has shown to be useful against shark bites for instance. Today it would probably be made of a titanium (perhaps a beta alloy although that might just shatter like glass) and engineered better. Basically all you are trying to do is spread out the contact area of the melee weapon or arrow/bolt so that it converts from a penetrating injury to a blunt injury as much as possible. Of course, nowadays we wouldn't even use metal. We would use kevlar or some other cloth with kevlar like properties, combined with some metal or ceramic plates.

 

This video has convinced me never to use chainmail again in an RPG. It no longer seems plausible to me as a protective device. Plate mail or splint mail maybe, but not chain mail. You may as well just wear leather armor for all the good it would do. I am curious though whether the metalworking was more sophisticated than we are giving them credit for. I mean were they really that stupid? Why wear something that heavy and expensive if it is nearly useless in an actual battle? Could their chainmail have looked very different? Perhaps using very thick wire like a chain link fence but with smaller loops? If the quality of your steel is not very good that seems to make a lot more sense. Just make a suit out of 1/8" - 1/4" diameter (#8 to #2 AWG) steel wire loops or mesh. Ideally properly heat treated for hardness.

[DCParry]

Thank the space pope. From Tim Cain:

 

Could you please provide a bit more detail on how skill/spell cooldowns are going to factor into the games combat system?

 

Sure, let me give some specifics on how we are planning to incorporate cooldowns into the wizard class. First off, cooldowns are NOT on individual spells. For any particular spell, you cast it, and when you are done, you can cast it again right away. But one limitation is on spells of a particular level. When you cast a certain number of those spells, in any combination, then the whole spell level group goes into a cooldown, and you can't use any of them until that cooldown has passed. That cooldown is long enough that for short battles, you are limited to casting a certain number of spells for each spell level. For long battles, that cooldown might expire and you can start casting those spells again.

 

The other cooldown has to do with your grimoire. A wizard may know a lot of spells, but he can only cast a few basic spells plus the ones that are in the grimoire that he is holding. Grimoires vary in size, holding various numbers of spells of different spell levels, and the player is free to load up his different grimoires with spell combinations of his choice. But once combat begins, switching grimoires causes a cooldown for all of those spells, leaving the caster only able to cast his basic spells until the grimoire cooldown passes. This means the player will have to think carefully about which spells he adds to a grimoire and under what situations he would want to switch one for another.

 

In addition:

 

In certain CRPGs you will regenerate all your health and mana after every fight, ensuring that you have your full power for every fight. In the IE games you didn't regenerate spells or health after each battle, making spell management a strategic concern.While this allows individual fights to be balanced for difficulty easier and is less punishing in general, it removes an aspect of strategy from the game that a lot of players enjoy. What is Project Eternity's aim in terms of strategic resource management?

 

In the old IE games, wizards and priests had resources that got drained and did not regenerate before the next battle, unlike fighters and rogues that few or no such resources. We are looking for a middle ground solution, either one where the wizards aren't the only ones to make a hard choice of whether to "use up" a resource, or one where no class has to make such a choice. For example, we are looking into the idea that wizards are only limited in the number of times they can cast their higher-level combat spells in a fight, and other spell are castable as many times as you want. As the wizard levels up, spells that previously had a limit can now be cast an unlimited number of times, and the newly acquired spells are the ones with a limit. And we could make similar abilities for fighters, priests and rogues too. In general, we always want to the player to have a choice of what to do with a particular character, and we want those choices to change as the character becomes more powerful.

 

Again, system appropriate approaches as opposed to dogmatically adhering to mechanics for mechanic's sake. Good job obsidian.

 

EDIT: Prepositions are for jerks, apparently.

Edited October 6, 2012 by DCParry

[alanschu]

Re: Mail Armor

 

Real combat isn't quite as rigid as the attack on the dummy. Though protection from arrows was a huge win in and of itself, the chain mail is still going to protect against a more glancing blow and when you're fighting in formation (which was typically superior to not), attackers aren't going to be able have all the space to generate a maximal force for their attacks very consistently.

 

Give the target leather armor, and little "poke poke poke" is sufficient. Give it chain mail, and suddenly you need to up it to STAB! And it still does a good job against a slashing attack (which, if the weapon is a sword, is effectively what a glancing piercing strike becomes).

 

 

From wikipedia:

Mail armour provided an effective defence against slashing blows by an edged weapon and penetration by thrusting and piercing weapons; in fact a study conducted at the Royal Armouries at Leeds concluded that "it is almost impossible to penetrate using any conventional medieval weapon"

 

It's a cited reference, so there's some conflicting opinions on its effectiveness.

Edited October 6, 2012 by alanschu

[morhilane]

Tim's explanation about the spell cooldown make it sound a bit like the D&D 3/3.5E Sorcerer, but without the spell selection limitation (which is based on the grimoires/tomes for Wizards and Faith for Priest in PE) and no need for resting (it's all in the background).

 

Still unsure if I like it or not.

[DocDoomII]

You have yet to see it in action. I won't judge until I *see* how it works.

[TrashMan]

Well sometimes I forgot how long I had been awake until I got the tired tag and then realized what I did, but wasn't it possible in BG2 for some distances to take over 1 day to travel, so you'd always end up tired (or am I misremembering?)

 

 

Yes, the old IE games lack any fatigue indicator. That was the problem as you coudln't tell how tired the party was.

 

Um a fatigue icon would show on the characters portrait?

 

Yes, but AFTER you already become fatigued.It's about as usefull as "you are dead" flashing on your screen after you HP goes to 0, without having any HP indicator anywhere.

A bar going down, showing you how fatigued you are would have been a FAR better idea.

[TrashMan]

Personally, I think the problem isn't the system, but the assumptions behind the system. A magic user in D&D can't meaningfully contribute to very many battles before using up their good spells. This leads to prioritization, which while potentially cool and tactical, is boring; it leads to battles where the mage is left in the back waiting for the battle to end. This is compounded by auto-attacks for non-casters, which doesn't work well for video games as it leads to the player also sitting around waiting for the battle to end. It's especially problematic when there's little way to avoid taking SOME damage, turning it into a matter of attrition. Because of this, the system has to allow some way to recover, and the D&D solutions don't work because the assumptions between pen and paper and video game RPGs are different.

 

Then you suck at playing a mage.

 

Because a mage is never useless unless you dont' know how to paly him.

 

A mage can still shoot a crossbow, swing a quatarstaff, use scrolls or wands or if nothing else be a decoy.

[TrashMan]

Wow. That video seems to demonstrate that at least low tech, cheap chainmail, which is probably precisely what combatants had back in the day was more or less useless. Well, worse than useless because it was heavy and (in warm climates) hot. Obviously high tech, modern, well designed chain mail does not have to be that way. Chain mail has shown to be useful against shark bites for instance. Today it would probably be made of a titanium (perhaps a beta alloy although that might just shatter like glass) and engineered better. Basically all you are trying to do is spread out the contact area of the melee weapon or arrow/bolt so that it converts from a penetrating injury to a blunt injury as much as possible. Of course, nowadays we wouldn't even use metal. We would use kevlar or some other cloth with kevlar like properties, combined with some metal or ceramic plates.

 

The video is more there to showcase hte weight issue.

Relisticly the testing falls flat because they are hacking at the mail placed on a tree. A human being isn't a tree. And a human being moves to absorb the shock of the impact.

 

Now of course the chainmail won't protect you agtainst a clean hit from a battle-axe, but in battle, clean hits are not easy to score.

[FlintlockJazz]

Wow. That video seems to demonstrate that at least low tech, cheap chainmail, which is probably precisely what combatants had back in the day was more or less useless. Well, worse than useless because it was heavy and (in warm climates) hot. Obviously high tech, modern, well designed chain mail does not have to be that way. Chain mail has shown to be useful against shark bites for instance. Today it would probably be made of a titanium (perhaps a beta alloy although that might just shatter like glass) and engineered better. Basically all you are trying to do is spread out the contact area of the melee weapon or arrow/bolt so that it converts from a penetrating injury to a blunt injury as much as possible. Of course, nowadays we wouldn't even use metal. We would use kevlar or some other cloth with kevlar like properties, combined with some metal or ceramic plates.

 

This video has convinced me never to use chainmail again in an RPG. It no longer seems plausible to me as a protective device. Plate mail or splint mail maybe, but not chain mail. You may as well just wear leather armor for all the good it would do. I am curious though whether the metalworking was more sophisticated than we are giving them credit for. I mean were they really that stupid? Why wear something that heavy and expensive if it is nearly useless in an actual battle? Could their chainmail have looked very different? Perhaps using very thick wire like a chain link fence but with smaller loops? If the quality of your steel is not very good that seems to make a lot more sense. Just make a suit out of 1/8" - 1/4" diameter (#8 to #2 AWG) steel wire loops or mesh. Ideally properly heat treated for hardness.

 

You have to be very very careful about where you get your source of information from when regarding medieval arms and armour. Many of the 'modern' suits of chain mail people use for testing is cheap rubbish made from Asia and other places, and having spoken to some experts they are not only completely rubbish when compared to authentic mail but is completely useless for testing purposes since it's not even made the same way. There's a lot of videos like that which really upset those I know who have actually dealt with the stuff, good quality mail from the period would not fail like that, that is cheap crap they are using in that video and you shouldn't take anything from it to be honest. They also show the sword as weighing 15lbs? I call bollocks on the reliability of that video to be bluntly honest.

[Jaesun]

Well sometimes I forgot how long I had been awake until I got the tired tag and then realized what I did, but wasn't it possible in BG2 for some distances to take over 1 day to travel, so you'd always end up tired (or am I misremembering?)

 

 

Yes, the old IE games lack any fatigue indicator. That was the problem as you coudln't tell how tired the party was.

 

Um a fatigue icon would show on the characters portrait?

 

Yes, but AFTER you already become fatigued.It's about as usefull as "you are dead" flashing on your screen after you HP goes to 0, without having any HP indicator anywhere.

A bar going down, showing you how fatigued you are would have been a FAR better idea.

 

Ahh yes. Sorry missed your point. Yes, that would have been a much better way (A bar going down, showing you how fatigued you).

[alanschu]

They also show the sword as weighing 15lbs? I call bollocks on the reliability of that video to be bluntly honest.

 

Haha that made me laugh too.

[GammaHamster]

 

 

Again, system appropriate approaches as opposed to dogmatically adhering to mechanics for mechanic's sake. Good job obsidian.

 

 

 

Yeah, good job, Obsidian. Now each encounter is a self-contained event, with no effect on bigger picture. So oldschool and IE-like.

[TrashMan]

You have to be very very careful about where you get your source of information from when regarding medieval arms and armour. Many of the 'modern' suits of chain mail people use for testing is cheap rubbish made from Asia and other places, and having spoken to some experts they are not only completely rubbish when compared to authentic mail but is completely useless for testing purposes since it's not even made the same way. There's a lot of videos like that which really upset those I know who have actually dealt with the stuff, good quality mail from the period would not fail like that, that is cheap crap they are using in that video and you shouldn't take anything from it to be honest. They also show the sword as weighing 15lbs? I call bollocks on the reliability of that video to be bluntly honest.

 

Yeah, most videos and "experts" and such populist shows are actually rather bad at doing proper research and testing.

 

The difference between a replica and a historicly accurate replica are enormeous.

[SGray]

You understand nothing. Other wise you wouldn't be arguing.

Wow, such an argument! "I'm right by default, others should obey" is quite a funny position.

 

Why would it mean he can't handle ordinary things? Don't you handle ordinary thing and do stuff over the day?

If i accumulate fatigue from day to day, not able to refresh myself fully in not extreme situations - i'm bad at handling simplest things. More understandable?

 

FUN is relative. I can easily consider half the stuff you find interesting in RPGs to be utterly boring.

Again, no direct answer ( Gladly, developers already not headed for enforcing binding rest mechanics.

 

You already had that in BG and IWD....don't you recall characters getting sleepy?

Was done solely to introduce rest for fighters-heavy parties, for them not to skip any resting completely. Mages-heavy rarely seen that at all. And, do you recall how often was that and how was it implemented? You could explore half of a map, without this, or leave you game unattended for couple of minutes and viola - all are tired.

I'll repeat that again: constantly stacking fatigue is only plausible hard-tied to constant in-game time flow. Which, in it's turn strongly tied to quests and plot design. Which, written so - not always good to play.

 

So no..I don't really get your point.

Maybe.

 

Even with pauses it will still tire you.

Not much more than ordinary day. If you are accustomed to traveling - no more at all.

 

Again, breath and fatigue...two different things in essence.

Hasn't understood, why this is said again. I understand this difference perfectly well, and vote myself for those two to clearly differ.

 

Not as a must.

But hey, if you do choose to go on two days without sleeping then you face the consequences.

...

Atlough every once and a while they really do need a long sleep.

So, again, your char himself sleeps for, say, 4 hours per day an you should correct him by pressing "sleep" button once a couple of days? So, or not?

My point: if not currently decided otherwise by plot char should handle routine himself. Otherwise you'll have hard time justifying ignoring one routine and focusing on another.

 

You speak from ignorance.

If you knew anything about armor, weapons and fighting you wouldn't be saying that.

Well, I thought you were reasonable interlocutor. Mb i'm mistaken.

 

If your only source of knowledge about medieval weaponry are videos such as shown... Well, pity you. Newer the less: from their words common armor (chainmail + helmet) weights not more than 10 kg, just as i said. Next, don't know if their sword is made from lead or smth similar, but 15 pounds (roughly 7 kg) for one handed sword is clear idiocy. Their sword - standard oakeshott, it weighed in at about 3 to 4 lbs. Any other normal one-handed sword - up to 2 kg. Their's 15 pounds is more than weight of full-sized european two-hander (1.5-1.7 meter length, up to 5 kg). Such an experts...

Next, about shields: normal wooden shield 70 cm in diameter (quite enough) with metal edging and metallic umbon - weights about 3-4 kg. Again, their weights double than that. It's possible, if it's made from wet wood or totally inappropriate one though.

And the last about this video. Their chain-mails are bad, really bad in any aspect of this word. (had plenty words to add, but self-censored it) Clearly seen at 3.40, 3.53, 4.48. They are made from thin wire, huge rings, one layered(!) (at least one), and in total - transparent(!!) (last timing, rofled at it). It's a fishing net, not a mail. Can't say anything about quality of steel, but regarding upper... A kid could make more authentic thing.

 

To sum all that text: medium equip - armor + weapons, weights not more than 16 kg. Nothing ordinary man can't handle. Men, whose life depends on it on every day basis - will not notice such weight at all. Thats first.

Second one: video clearly proofed that man given sword first time cant do anything vs shield. If you think that one such man (or even five in a row) could ever tire professional swordsman more than just standing still... Well, it's only up to your faith. Same, if you try to duel professional fencer or kendo sensei. (Doubt you ever met any of them though.)

 

Looks like it's going down to flaming. Let's end this. More so, rest system considering combat is decided already.

Edited October 7, 2012 by SGray

[Aldereth]

 

Again, system appropriate approaches as opposed to dogmatically adhering to mechanics for mechanic's sake. Good job obsidian.

 

 

Amen to that. P&P (pen and paper) and cRPG are two different medium. Each has its advantageous and each excel at provide different forms of enjoyment/entertainment. While putting limitation (memorization, fatique or what not) to balance out the classes makes sense for P&P, some gamers may find it to be a chore in an interactive cRPG to have their character basically do nothing in real time whether the game is turn base or real time.

 

Consider the following approach that is neither Vancian nor cooldown. There are only 2 resource for caster, mana and casting time (action point for turn base and real casting time for real time). The higher level a caster, the more mana he has and each turn (or interval of real time) he would regenerate more of mana.

 

Spell cost mana and casting time. The more damage and range and utility a spell have, the more mana it use and the longer the casting time. Touch range spell that say imbue your weapon or hand with fire for 1 hit would be so low in mana and time resource that they would be virtually next to nothing. The big trade off would be to spend the time resource for imbuing the weapon with fire whereas if he doesn't, he could attack one more time, run away, whatever. A short range (eg. 3 tiles) magic missle fire base spell cost a bit more but for a high enough level, he can throw 2, 3 or more to the limit of the casting time (action point) allow for in a turn. A long range fireball area of effect spell will cost so much that it would be beyond the mana pool for beginner level. At mid level, he could cast one but it cost like most of his mana and he can only regenerate enough mana to cast it again after 2 turns if he only do light casting like those touch range or short range spell. If he does not do any casting, he can regenerate fast enough to cast again after waiting 1 turn. A high level caster would be able to cast it every turn. Heck, at high enough level he can even cast the fireball and some other low mana cost spell as long as time resource allow.

 

Yes, some may cry foul for a system that let caster do multiple spell casting per turn, but that's where play balancing comes in. The dev. can change the casting time requirement and mana cost to fine tune these to balance out the class. If they give the mele class enough power skill, you have lower requirements. If not, you can raise the time requirement to the level that it is virtually a one spell a turn deal.

 

On the plus side, you can add depth and variation with this system. You may have gamers that play caster like ye old AD&D wizard, standing in the back and lobbing powerful spell, 1 per turn. While some would opt for mages that would cast a personal buff for +2 armor class, close in and fire multiple short range, mid-low damage spell. And mayhaps someone so inventive to cast a big damage absorbtion spell for 100 points of damage that would last for 10 turns at turn1, then follow with mid level buff for +3 attack that last for 5 turns in turn 2. Then at turn 3, he charge in like a tank and just hit with multiple low cost spell as he mana regenerate. Or maybe the caster have a +3 dagger and he could forget about doing the attack buff in turn two and charge in like a 100 HP boss on turn 2. Too powerful for the melee class to handle this Magetank, not if you give the fighter abilities to use either blunt weapon or pommel strike to do stun damage that either literally stun the wizard a turn or two to tick down the spell duration. Alternatively, if stunning is too powerful, let it marginally increase the time resource cost for spells (as well as other action). It is about balancing.