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Alternatives to Vancian or Cooldowns? Other suggestions?

cooldown rest magic inn fatigue health vanacian

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They also show the sword as weighing 15lbs? I call bollocks on the reliability of that video to be bluntly honest.

Haha that made me laugh too.



    (1) Prestidigitator

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Again, system appropriate approaches as opposed to dogmatically adhering to mechanics for mechanic's sake. Good job obsidian.

Yeah, good job, Obsidian. Now each encounter is a self-contained event, with no effect on bigger picture. So oldschool and IE-like.



    Holy Avenger of the Obsidian Order

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You have to be very very careful about where you get your source of information from when regarding medieval arms and armour. Many of the 'modern' suits of chain mail people use for testing is cheap rubbish made from Asia and other places, and having spoken to some experts they are not only completely rubbish when compared to authentic mail but is completely useless for testing purposes since it's not even made the same way. There's a lot of videos like that which really upset those I know who have actually dealt with the stuff, good quality mail from the period would not fail like that, that is cheap crap they are using in that video and you shouldn't take anything from it to be honest. They also show the sword as weighing 15lbs? I call bollocks on the reliability of that video to be bluntly honest.

Yeah, most videos and "experts" and such populist shows are actually rather bad at doing proper research and testing.

The difference between a replica and a historicly accurate replica are enormeous.



    (2) Evoker

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You understand nothing. Other wise you wouldn't be arguing.

Wow, such an argument! "I'm right by default, others should obey" is quite a funny position.

Why would it mean he can't handle ordinary things? Don't you handle ordinary thing and do stuff over the day?

If i accumulate fatigue from day to day, not able to refresh myself fully in not extreme situations - i'm bad at handling simplest things. More understandable?

FUN is relative. I can easily consider half the stuff you find interesting in RPGs to be utterly boring.

Again, no direct answer ( Gladly, developers already not headed for enforcing binding rest mechanics.

You already had that in BG and IWD....don't you recall characters getting sleepy?

Was done solely to introduce rest for fighters-heavy parties, for them not to skip any resting completely. Mages-heavy rarely seen that at all. And, do you recall how often was that and how was it implemented? You could explore half of a map, without this, or leave you game unattended for couple of minutes and viola - all are tired.
I'll repeat that again: constantly stacking fatigue is only plausible hard-tied to constant in-game time flow. Which, in it's turn strongly tied to quests and plot design. Which, written so - not always good to play.

So no..I don't really get your point.


Even with pauses it will still tire you.

Not much more than ordinary day. If you are accustomed to traveling - no more at all.

Again, breath and fatigue...two different things in essence.

Hasn't understood, why this is said again. I understand this difference perfectly well, and vote myself for those two to clearly differ.

Not as a must.
But hey, if you do choose to go on two days without sleeping then you face the consequences.
Atlough every once and a while they really do need a long sleep.

So, again, your char himself sleeps for, say, 4 hours per day an you should correct him by pressing "sleep" button once a couple of days? So, or not?
My point: if not currently decided otherwise by plot char should handle routine himself. Otherwise you'll have hard time justifying ignoring one routine and focusing on another.

You speak from ignorance.
If you knew anything about armor, weapons and fighting you wouldn't be saying that.

Well, I thought you were reasonable interlocutor. Mb i'm mistaken.

If your only source of knowledge about medieval weaponry are videos such as shown... Well, pity you. Newer the less: from their words common armor (chainmail + helmet) weights not more than 10 kg, just as i said. Next, don't know if their sword is made from lead or smth similar, but 15 pounds (roughly 7 kg) for one handed sword is clear idiocy. Their sword - standard oakeshott, it weighed in at about 3 to 4 lbs. Any other normal one-handed sword - up to 2 kg. Their's 15 pounds is more than weight of full-sized european two-hander (1.5-1.7 meter length, up to 5 kg). Such an experts...
Next, about shields: normal wooden shield 70 cm in diameter (quite enough) with metal edging and metallic umbon - weights about 3-4 kg. Again, their weights double than that. It's possible, if it's made from wet wood or totally inappropriate one though.
And the last about this video. Their chain-mails are bad, really bad in any aspect of this word. (had plenty words to add, but self-censored it) Clearly seen at 3.40, 3.53, 4.48. They are made from thin wire, huge rings, one layered(!) (at least one), and in total - transparent(!!) (last timing, rofled at it). It's a fishing net, not a mail. Can't say anything about quality of steel, but regarding upper... A kid could make more authentic thing.

To sum all that text: medium equip - armor + weapons, weights not more than 16 kg. Nothing ordinary man can't handle. Men, whose life depends on it on every day basis - will not notice such weight at all. Thats first.
Second one: video clearly proofed that man given sword first time cant do anything vs shield. If you think that one such man (or even five in a row) could ever tire professional swordsman more than just standing still... Well, it's only up to your faith. Same, if you try to duel professional fencer or kendo sensei. (Doubt you ever met any of them though.)

Looks like it's going down to flaming. Let's end this. More so, rest system considering combat is decided already.

Edited by SGray, 07 October 2012 - 02:23 PM.



    (3) Conjurer

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Again, system appropriate approaches as opposed to dogmatically adhering to mechanics for mechanic's sake. Good job obsidian.

Amen to that. P&P (pen and paper) and cRPG are two different medium. Each has its advantageous and each excel at provide different forms of enjoyment/entertainment. While putting limitation (memorization, fatique or what not) to balance out the classes makes sense for P&P, some gamers may find it to be a chore in an interactive cRPG to have their character basically do nothing in real time whether the game is turn base or real time.

Consider the following approach that is neither Vancian nor cooldown. There are only 2 resource for caster, mana and casting time (action point for turn base and real casting time for real time). The higher level a caster, the more mana he has and each turn (or interval of real time) he would regenerate more of mana.

Spell cost mana and casting time. The more damage and range and utility a spell have, the more mana it use and the longer the casting time. Touch range spell that say imbue your weapon or hand with fire for 1 hit would be so low in mana and time resource that they would be virtually next to nothing. The big trade off would be to spend the time resource for imbuing the weapon with fire whereas if he doesn't, he could attack one more time, run away, whatever. A short range (eg. 3 tiles) magic missle fire base spell cost a bit more but for a high enough level, he can throw 2, 3 or more to the limit of the casting time (action point) allow for in a turn. A long range fireball area of effect spell will cost so much that it would be beyond the mana pool for beginner level. At mid level, he could cast one but it cost like most of his mana and he can only regenerate enough mana to cast it again after 2 turns if he only do light casting like those touch range or short range spell. If he does not do any casting, he can regenerate fast enough to cast again after waiting 1 turn. A high level caster would be able to cast it every turn. Heck, at high enough level he can even cast the fireball and some other low mana cost spell as long as time resource allow.

Yes, some may cry foul for a system that let caster do multiple spell casting per turn, but that's where play balancing comes in. The dev. can change the casting time requirement and mana cost to fine tune these to balance out the class. If they give the mele class enough power skill, you have lower requirements. If not, you can raise the time requirement to the level that it is virtually a one spell a turn deal.

On the plus side, you can add depth and variation with this system. You may have gamers that play caster like ye old AD&D wizard, standing in the back and lobbing powerful spell, 1 per turn. While some would opt for mages that would cast a personal buff for +2 armor class, close in and fire multiple short range, mid-low damage spell. And mayhaps someone so inventive to cast a big damage absorbtion spell for 100 points of damage that would last for 10 turns at turn1, then follow with mid level buff for +3 attack that last for 5 turns in turn 2. Then at turn 3, he charge in like a tank and just hit with multiple low cost spell as he mana regenerate. Or maybe the caster have a +3 dagger and he could forget about doing the attack buff in turn two and charge in like a 100 HP boss on turn 2. Too powerful for the melee class to handle this Magetank, not if you give the fighter abilities to use either blunt weapon or pommel strike to do stun damage that either literally stun the wizard a turn or two to tick down the spell duration. Alternatively, if stunning is too powerful, let it marginally increase the time resource cost for spells (as well as other action). It is about balancing.

Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: cooldown, rest, magic, inn, fatigue, health, vanacian

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