Wirdjos Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 They owe us nothing. I'd say they owe us information. Let them make the game however they want. It is their game. But it is also our money. So we desrve to be informed when possible. I don't expect info right away, but it should come. I'm actually okay with mentality. I want information pretty bad right now too. I just don't want the process rushed along to fill that need. So along as you're willing to wait for it, yes, I think the free flow of information is very important. I however do believe that you run into a couple of issue with the word 'owe' and the thought process that tends to follow it needs to be weeded out quite swiftly. It was you that pointed it out to me originally, Merin, wasn't it? Thanks for that, by the way. 1
codexer Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I'm not worried about cooldowns. I'm worried about spell selections and spell lists in general. Will they be as rich as the IE-games? I see no indication thereof, rather I see traces of the opinion that big chunks of the arcane spells of D&D are going out the window so as to not make wizard highly customizable and also prevent them from stepping on other classes toes. I guess I want omnipotence in high level wizards. My fear is that on a white board in the OE:HQ the following thing has been written out: Fighters - Tank/DPS Rogue - DPS/utility Priest - heal/buff Mage - DPS/controll ranger - dualwielding / panther pet etc. PE:online (too soon to kickstart?) what have they said that makes you think that? I haven't read anything that leads me to believe we will have limited spell choices. I'm not being condescending. I really would like to know. We have the JS quote: "Knock and its old friends spider climb and invisibility are part of a classic family of spells that made rogue and thief players say, "Hey, why do I exist?" I don't believe their inclusion in pre-4E editions of D&D and AD&D was a great thing." In conjunction with how TC described the classes in the twelfth update:
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 They owe us nothing. I'd say they owe us information. Let them make the game however they want. It is their game. But it is also our money. So we desrve to be informed when possible. I don't expect info right away, but it should come. well said. The thing most people seem to be misunderstanding is that at this stage in development, there probably isn't that much information worth sharing with us. 1
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I'm not worried about cooldowns. I'm worried about spell selections and spell lists in general. Will they be as rich as the IE-games? I see no indication thereof, rather I see traces of the opinion that big chunks of the arcane spells of D&D are going out the window so as to not make wizard highly customizable and also prevent them from stepping on other classes toes. I guess I want omnipotence in high level wizards. My fear is that on a white board in the OE:HQ the following thing has been written out: Fighters - Tank/DPS Rogue - DPS/utility Priest - heal/buff Mage - DPS/controll ranger - dualwielding / panther pet etc. PE:online (too soon to kickstart?) what have they said that makes you think that? I haven't read anything that leads me to believe we will have limited spell choices. I'm not being condescending. I really would like to know. We have the JS quote: "Knock and its old friends spider climb and invisibility are part of a classic family of spells that made rogue and thief players say, "Hey, why do I exist?" I don't believe their inclusion in pre-4E editions of D&D and AD&D was a great thing." In conjunction with how TC described the classes in the twelfth update: fair enough. I guess I personally just agree with their opinion of those spells.
GhostofAnakin Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Tell me, if that's true, then why are you spending time on this forum arguing with me and people like me? Obviously you feel that showing your opinions does matter to the developers. And guess what? THEY DO. You do have control. Our criticism here on this forum can change things in this game. I'm not the person you posted, but for me it's the same reason I post on other gaming forums, or on hockey forums. Not because I think I can sway the developers (or my favorite NHL team's GM) into doing things exactly how I want, but to discuss something I enjoy with people who also enjoy the same thing. Also, I post my ideas/thoughts on features for PE in hopes the devs might see them and say, "you know, that might work". But I don't post with the belief that they *will* react that way. 3 "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)
MReed Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I still stay cooldowns are garbage. The resting "spam" can easily be fixed. Don't allow resting in some areas. OR Don't allow saving everywhere (hence the reload-rest mechanics ceases to work) What if you can only save in safe areas? Make resting in unsafe areas even unsafer? There you go. How would the player abuse it now? Resting isn't a stupid mechanic. Never was. It was a mechanic that makes sesne because people haev to rest...and sleep I would like that kind of setup. But I have a feeling you'd have people complaining about those changes as well. Particularly "save points" Not me... I'm not 100% behind limited save points, but if you can save the game and resume (alal "Ironman mode" -- the save is deleted on load) anywhere then I'm OK with this concept. Heck, I wouldn't even oppose a "You can only rest in Inns" type mechanic.
Wirdjos Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Tell me, if that's true, then why are you spending time on this forum arguing with me and people like me? Obviously you feel that showing your opinions does matter to the developers. Of course it matters, they are listening. However, the only thing demands and threats are going to achieve is the restriction of the free flow of information. I don't want Obsidian thinking they have be careful what they tell us lest we revolt. I want to know what's going on, when it's going on. Allowing demands to represent the whole community means less information, in my mind, which means I (and others) have to yell just as loud as the opposing viewpoint. 1
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Tell me, if that's true, then why are you spending time on this forum arguing with me and people like me? Obviously you feel that showing your opinions does matter to the developers. And guess what? THEY DO. You do have control. Our criticism here on this forum can change things in this game. I'm not the person you posted, but for me it's the same reason I post on other gaming forums, or on hockey forums. Not because I think I can sway the developers (or my favorite NHL team's GM) into doing things exactly how I want, but to discuss something I enjoy with people who also enjoy the same thing. Also, I post my ideas/thoughts on features for PE in hopes the devs might see them and say, "you know, that might work". But I don't post with the belief that they *will* react that way. agreed. I like talking about things that interest me. Apparently we even agree what those things are. stupid lock out Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla
Infinitron Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Tell me, if that's true, then why are you spending time on this forum arguing with me and people like me? Obviously you feel that showing your opinions does matter to the developers. And guess what? THEY DO. You do have control. Our criticism here on this forum can change things in this game. I'm not the person you posted, but for me it's the same reason I post on other gaming forums, or on hockey forums. Not because I think I can sway the developers (or my favorite NHL team's GM) into doing things exactly how I want, but to discuss something I enjoy with people who also enjoy the same thing. Also, I post my ideas/thoughts on features for PE in hopes the devs might see them and say, "you know, that might work". But I don't post with the belief that they *will* react that way. I would say that in a Kickstarter project where there's a direct relation between our happiness and the amount of money Obsidian gets to make their game, the chances of them reacting are much higher.
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Tell me, if that's true, then why are you spending time on this forum arguing with me and people like me? Obviously you feel that showing your opinions does matter to the developers. And guess what? THEY DO. You do have control. Our criticism here on this forum can change things in this game. I'm not the person you posted, but for me it's the same reason I post on other gaming forums, or on hockey forums. Not because I think I can sway the developers (or my favorite NHL team's GM) into doing things exactly how I want, but to discuss something I enjoy with people who also enjoy the same thing. Also, I post my ideas/thoughts on features for PE in hopes the devs might see them and say, "you know, that might work". But I don't post with the belief that they *will* react that way. I would say that in a Kickstarter project where there's a direct relation between our happiness and the amount of money Obsidian gets to make their game, the chances of them reacting are much higher. that's the problem. I don't want them to react too much to us. The simple fact is this: they know more about making games than we do. I want them to trust their own judgement over ours. Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla 5
Merin Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I'm not the person you posted, but for me it's the same reason I post on other gaming forums, or on hockey forums. Not because I think I can sway the developers (or my favorite NHL team's GM) into doing things exactly how I want, but to discuss something I enjoy with people who also enjoy the same thing. Also, I post my ideas/thoughts on features for PE in hopes the devs might see them and say, "you know, that might work". But I don't post with the belief that they *will* react that way. I would say that in a Kickstarter project where there's a direct relation between our happiness and the amount of money Obsidian gets to make their game, the chances of them reacting are much higher. that's the problem. I don't want them to react too much to us. The simple fact is this: they know more about making games than we do. I want them to trust their own judgement over ours. I'll just let ogrezilla answer for me.
C2B Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Tell me, if that's true, then why are you spending time on this forum arguing with me and people like me? Obviously you feel that showing your opinions does matter to the developers. And guess what? THEY DO. You do have control. Our criticism here on this forum can change things in this game. I'm not the person you posted, but for me it's the same reason I post on other gaming forums, or on hockey forums. Not because I think I can sway the developers (or my favorite NHL team's GM) into doing things exactly how I want, but to discuss something I enjoy with people who also enjoy the same thing. Also, I post my ideas/thoughts on features for PE in hopes the devs might see them and say, "you know, that might work". But I don't post with the belief that they *will* react that way. I would say that in a Kickstarter project where there's a direct relation between our happiness and the amount of money Obsidian gets to make their game, the chances of them reacting are much higher. that's the problem. I don't want them to react too much to us. The simple fact is this: they know more about making games than we do. I want them to trust their own judgement over ours. I'm pretty sure they are capable of that. Feedback is important. Edited October 2, 2012 by C2B
Elerond Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Resting isn't a stupid mechanic. Never was. It was a mechanic that makes sesne because people haev to rest...and sleep Which is one reason why saw it bit odd that mages need 8 hours to rememorize their spells (as they don't get even one spell back if their rest is interrupted only after 4 or 6 six hours of sleep). So basically mages didn't sleep in IE games ever as they were too busy to do their rituals and etc. things needed to get spells ready to sleep.
Infinitron Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Well guys, if you believe your own feedback isn't worthy of Obsidian's attention, I guess I won't argue with you.
Ieo Posted October 2, 2012 Author Posted October 2, 2012 Of course it matters, they are listening. However, the only thing demands and threats are going to achieve is the restriction of the free flow of information. I don't want Obsidian thinking they have be careful what they tell us lest we revolt. I want to know what's going on, when it's going on. Allowing demands to represent the whole community means less information, in my mind, which means I (and others) have to yell just as loud as the opposing viewpoint. Indeed, keep in mind that Obsidian wants to keep the communication line open as a matter of faith, while they're not obligated to do so, but extreme reactions instead can have a distinct chilling effect. I wanted this thread to be one of particular discourse--we do NOT want a chilling effect from both Obsidian and backers/potential players. That Sawyer posted twice in very short form only to point out that people should read his content more closely might be telling. I would say that in a Kickstarter project where there's a direct relation between our happiness and the amount of money Obsidian gets to make their game, the chances of them reacting are much higher. This is true on its face. But if you think a particular munchkinny/crunchy/Vancian purist minority is going to somehow force Obsidian to change its mind about a technical choice, here's a newsflash: The Kickstarter was already successful. Good luck dropping the funding below $1.1 solely on the keyword "cooldown." Now get a backbone and stop brown-nosing. Harsh criticism will make this game better for everybody. Don't dish it if you can't take it, boy. Mere mention of 'cooldown' has a munchkin minority beelining only to that and ignoring all other possibilities or discourse for combination systems and original implementation while threatening to or already downgrading pledges (whatever, it happens). You might instead try picking apart every single thing Sawyer has said (OP quotes and quote on pg 2) on technical and higher gameplay levels. If, however, you cannot do that, and you guys are complaining solely on the "But I don't like it" as a matter of preference, then just take it or leave it; Obsidian has made the choice, and your preference isn't "right" on its face. You fail to understand that purely preferential "criticism" is not "constructive criticism" by any stretch of the imagination. Man up. 3 The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book. Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most? PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE. "But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger) "Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Tell me, if that's true, then why are you spending time on this forum arguing with me and people like me? Obviously you feel that showing your opinions does matter to the developers. And guess what? THEY DO. You do have control. Our criticism here on this forum can change things in this game. I'm not the person you posted, but for me it's the same reason I post on other gaming forums, or on hockey forums. Not because I think I can sway the developers (or my favorite NHL team's GM) into doing things exactly how I want, but to discuss something I enjoy with people who also enjoy the same thing. Also, I post my ideas/thoughts on features for PE in hopes the devs might see them and say, "you know, that might work". But I don't post with the belief that they *will* react that way. I would say that in a Kickstarter project where there's a direct relation between our happiness and the amount of money Obsidian gets to make their game, the chances of them reacting are much higher. that's the problem. I don't want them to react too much to us. The simple fact is this: they know more about making games than we do. I want them to trust their own judgement over ours. I'm pretty sure they are capable of that. Feedback is important. feedback is fine. There are people with good constructive criticisms. its the people who are essentially lighting their torches or taking their ball and going home despite the lack of information that bothers me. Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla
Infinitron Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Man up. ??? Listen, if us "munchkins" hadn't been out in force here today with our complaints, Josh probably would not have stepped into the forum to clarify his position with regards to level scaling. And who knows? It could be that thanks to that, even the slightest possibility of level scaling in this game has now been eliminated. Don't belittle the munchkins. We get things done.
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Man up. ??? Listen, if us "munchkins" hadn't been out in force here today with our complaints, Josh probably would not have stepped into the forum to clarify his position with regards to level scaling. And who knows? It could be that thanks to that, even the slightest possibility of level scaling in this game has now been eliminated. Don't belittle the munchkins. We get things done. the discussion on that topic was much more reasonable than the discussion about cooldowns has been.
GammaHamster Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 If, however, you cannot do that, and you guys are complaining solely on the "But I don't like it" as a matter of preference, then just take it or leave it; Obsidian has made the choice, and your preference isn't "right" on its face. You fail to understand that purely preferential "criticism" is not "constructive criticism" by any stretch of the imagination. Man up. Pff, no true scotsman fallacy.
Ieo Posted October 2, 2012 Author Posted October 2, 2012 Man up. ??? Listen, if us "munchkins" hadn't been out in force here today with our complaints, Josh probably would not have stepped into the forum to clarify his position with regards to level scaling. And who knows? It could be that thanks to that, even the slightest possibility of level scaling in this game has now been eliminated. Don't belittle the munchkins. We get things done. Then you sure got this done, yet refuse to address it out of, what, personal preference? reading all of the quotes on the front page, it really sounds like the cooldowns are more likely replacing the rest system while you will still have to make choices about what spells you have available to cast. Thank you for reading what I wrote. I do what I can. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I might suggest someone addresses this issue before the townsfolk light their torches I already have. You guys still aren't addressing exactly what he wrote. How cute. The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book. Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most? PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE. "But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger) "Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)
_dagger_ Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I'm positive to ANY system NOT allowing you to regenerate your spells DURING combat. Agreed. That was the brilliance of the BG games, you had to choose when and on what to cast your spells on carefully. Made up for a much more tactical combat as contrary to the cooldown system where you basically always cast the most powerful spell available. 1
Infinitron Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Then you sure got this done, yet refuse to address it out of, what, personal preference? reading all of the quotes on the front page, it really sounds like the cooldowns are more likely replacing the rest system while you will still have to make choices about what spells you have available to cast. Thank you for reading what I wrote. I do what I can. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I might suggest someone addresses this issue before the townsfolk light their torches I already have. You guys still aren't addressing exactly what he wrote. How cute. There's nothing much to address here. Like I said, we need more information. You think this means there will be eight hour cooldowns for all spells? I seriously doubt that.
ogrezilla Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 8 hours? no. I think its pretty safe to assume we won't be seeing something resembling the Dragon Age system though.
Hypevosa Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 I'm positive to ANY system NOT allowing you to regenerate your spells DURING combat. Agreed. That was the brilliance of the BG games, you had to choose when and on what to cast your spells on carefully. Made up for a much more tactical combat as contrary to the cooldown system where you basically always cast the most powerful spell available. I'll also agree, but any cooldowns where you instantly get all your best spells once a combat ends is just as bad - the issue always becomes that my mage casting fireball every single solitary fight and blowing up the entire enemy party is really overpowered, but taking the ability to display that much power away from mages is as unkind as making it so rogue's can't backstab someone in one blow, or warriors can't critical and cause fleshy bits to fly everywhere as the screen shakes. Mages thrive on being awesome, and, for balance's sake they can't be awesome EVERY fight, if cooldowns work too quickly then we can't have that :\
Recommended Posts