Just how Easy will Easy be?

[RosesandAshes]

So, I understand the OP's concern, and I think I know what he means by "I play for the story". Just because you think the story is important doesn't mean you don't want ANY combat. You just don't want to be in a situation where your party leaves town, and 10 minutes later you're thinking "Great... I still haven't beaten this pack of rabid fire dogs, two of my party members are dead, and I'm already out of potions... " In that case, if that's not your cup of tea, you might want to turn it down to an "easy" mode to make the game more enjoyable. Why not? Those who like battling rabid fire dogs are not affected, and everyone wins.

 

I was going to chime in but I'll just leave this here. I don't think repeatedly dying to rabid fire dogs is very fun. Once or twice is fine, but eight times on a non-boss creature after I've tried several strategies is not. Does it really hurt anyone's game if someone is playing it on easy mode? If you don't want to play it on easy mode, then don't play it on easy mode, simple as that. Go play Dark Souls: Prepare to Die edition if you need a fix right this instant, and just let everyone play with the difficulty level they want to play on.

[Jymm]

Man I hate the internet. If someone wants to play the game on easy because Obsidian knows how to write characters and tell a story then why are we _compelled_ to mock them and get high and mighty about it? Sigh. I'm never going to play a game on hardcore mode. I have a wife and kids and nowhere near enough time to dedicate these days to getting that good at the gameplay. I'm also very unlikely to play on easy because I've been doing this for years, played a number of the infinity engine games and would like to face at least some threat and tension in my gaming experience. But my playing it on some middling difficulty has no impact on you. So easy should be easy and we should welcome those players if they are contributing money to producing our long desired game. And in return maybe the casual players will eventually learn to tolerate the hardcore fanatics.

[Tuco Benedicto]

I was going to chime in but I'll just leave this here. I don't think repeatedly dying to rabid fire dogs is very fun. Once or twice is fine, but eight times on a non-boss creature after I've tried several strategies is not.

On the other hand, I don't even think it's a realistic outcome, if you have *any* understanding of the game you are playing. If you are dying eight times in a row against what are usually called "trash mobs", then you clearly didn't learn the first thing about the combat system you are using.

 

Especially since we aren't even talking about some quick, reflex based action games, here, but about tactical combat.

And a well designed tactical combat is essentially a puzzle. So being completely incapable to manage it is just not thinking about it enough.

 

Man I hate the internet.

That's probably mutual.

[Shades]

I'd guess like others that easy mode will probably be similar to the IE games. And if you still have trouble hopefully there will be a cheat/command console of some sort that you could use to help you out. Can't recall if BG had a god mode (can't get hurt/die), but I think you could switch on a bunch of keys that will do different things, one of them being healing your party members. So maybe PE will have something similar. And if not then eventually there will be mods.

 

I think the most important thing is that you enjoy the game. To me if a game is making you pull your hair out with stress and bash your head through tables then you're obviously not enjoying it (unless you have a strange way of expressing it... ).

 

I'd have to say that although I don't have any difficulty with the IE type games (though I don't go and play on the hardest difficulty either) I also play RPG games largely for the story. Yes I enjoy killing stuff and progressing, but I probably enjoy following the story, watching things unfold and developing my characters a lot more. I like most Obsidian games because they've provided such interesting and wonderful stories.

[Tuco Benedicto]

Like Josh, I suck at RTS games. But I loved StarCraft 1's storyline so much that I cheated my way through it

Well, I suck at RTS too, but that's not what Josh Sawyer said at all.

He said that he sucks at playing RTS but despise that he still play them exactly because he enjoys the mechanics. He didn't cheated to follow the story.

 

That's me at DOTA 2, by the way. I like the game, I'm quite terrible at it (more inexperienced that criminally incompetent, actually, but still...) and yet I still enjoy it for what it is.

[licketysplit]

Been thinking about this. Not sure pause and play can be as tactical as turn based or twitch combat - it's somewhere in between.

[simsum]

*Dons asbestos suit* Why not just make the non-social encounters optional? It seems to me that trying to create reasonably challenging and interesting combat encounters and the like for a group of potential players, who by their own admission have zero interest in anything beyond the social encounters, is doomed to fail.

 

I'd much rather the devs just made a "the game skips past any and all potentially fatal encounters" difficulty, and spent the money they saved on really great and varied combat encounter design for those of us who actually like tactical combat CRPGs.

 

Really, letting the people who'd rather auto-win do just that, strikes me as a far, far better idea than wasting money trying to make them enjoy suffering through stuff they don't even want to like.

 

Why people go into a tactical combat CRPG when they don't like that sort of game is, I guess, a valid topic for discussion. But the fact is that it happens, so why not just give them what they really want instead of compromising the gameplay the rest of us love?

[TwinkieGorilla]

I want to play this whole game in dog vs frog mode and that's all I'm sayin'.

 

EDIT: sorry wrong thread.

Edited September 27, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Tuco Benedicto]

Don't attack someone who wants to play on a lower difficulty setting.Quite honestly, why do you care

 

Give it up and stop caring about what others like to do when it has no effect on your own play-throughs.

Who are you talking to, exactly?

Because I already stated quite clearly in this thread that I don't care at all about how others play the game as far as it's optional and it doesn't affect the game design on my end.

[Tuco Benedicto]

Uh huh.

 

Why reply rudely to my use of cheats in 2 games, because I enjoyed the story?

I'm not sure what you thought it was supposed to be rude in my reply exactly, but whatever. If you enjoy to feel offended over nothing I'm not going to stop you.

I just pointed out that no, what you were saying and what Sawyer said weren't the same thing at all, so the "Like Josh, me too" introduction wasn't very accurate.

[Bobby Null]

Hey all,

 

Whenever I see polarizing topics about CRPGs, I typically look back to the true inspiration of these CRPGs for the answer, table top RPGs. The honest truth is, there is no right answer. Some table top groups like to hack and slash their way godhood, while other groups are happy to chat with each other in a tavern for hours on end. Some minmax their characters to ridiculous levels, while others play severely underpowered characters they find interesting. Who is right? They all are!!!

 

As a long-time Dungeon Master, I've learned there is only one rule that is important. Is the group having fun? Making games is very similar, except we need to please a much larger audience. Instead of making 5 or 6 people happy, we are trying to make millions (hopefully) of people happy. Of course we can't please everyone in the gaming world, but what we will try to do, is please every role-player.

 

IMO, the best RPGs use story elements to reinforce the game play. That game play may be combat, choice mechanics, skill use, etc. This does not mean the game play should be unplayable for "casual" players. At Obsidian we value narrative and game play equally.

 

Whatever the "easy" mode ends up being, it will be very manageable for that type of player. We've already announced manageable stretch goals to include some WICKED options for you hardcore types (believe me, you are gonna get punished ). The folks that want an easier time of it, will have that option as well. As long as making the game accessible does not influence or "dumb down" the difficult settings (which it won't), everyone wins. After all, we are making this game together. We want you ALL to enjoy it.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Bob, seriously. It's all in good fun. I'm sure that goes for most of us. We're just occupying ourselves until we have the fun you're promising.

[Piccolo]

Whatever the "easy" mode ends up being, it will be very manageable for that type of player. We've already announced manageable stretch goals to include some WICKED options for you hardcore types (believe me, you are gonna get punished ). The folks that want an easier time of it, will have that option as well. As long as making the game accessible does not influence or "dumb down" the difficult settings (which it won't), everyone wins. After all, we are making this game together. We want you ALL to enjoy it.

So will there actually end up being some form of easy mode then, that's separate from regular mode?

 

To reiterate my earlier post, I think a lot of gamers shy away from bumping up the difficulty, not necessarily because they want a casual experience, but because they view default as the optimal or intended form of the game. With that in mind I think it's important not to make the default difficulty experience too accessible or "dumbed down". It should really be a happy medium without the hand-holding of an "easy mode", or the hardcore brutality of the difficult modes.

[LucyZephyr]

That's a hugely reassuring Dev reply. Cool, cool.

 

In the end: We all play games for different reasons. We shouldn't strive to exclude people, but to be as inclusive as feasibly possible. Some people play for the tactics. Some for the story. Some for a punishing challenge. If someone else plays differently than you do, what does that hurt?

[Grimlorn]

Bob, seriously. It's all in good fun. I'm sure that goes for most of us. We're just occupying ourselves until we have the fun you're promising.

This.

 

I was just joking around. I do think it would be funny to make fun of the player a bit for selecting the easiest setting, but I didn't think people would get so upset about it. It's like you can't make fa little fun of people without them getting extremely upset. I don't mind if people make a little fun of me for something I'm bad at. It's all in good fun.

[generic.hybridity]

Nothing wrong with requesting an easy mode. As a 'hardcore' player I can respect that some people get all of/a majority of their enjoyment from the story in an RPG. This is a valid thing to do.

 

I'm fairly sure the game will be about as easy on easy as BG/PST were on easy. I don't think there is much incentive for the devs to go easier than that, and make a 'cinematic' mode, seeing as they are being kickstarted by a large amount of people who played and enjoyed the earlier IE games.Though it wouldn't be a problem if they did.

[LucyZephyr]

Sometimes I replay RPGs on Easy because I just want the story. And there are people who haven't grown up with this style of game who may need to tackle it on Easy first. And I have a friend-of-a-friend with a physical disability that makes console games impossible for her and PC games tricky (she does a lot of rebinding of keys). I think making fun of Easy Mode is cute in theory, but potentially alienating in execution.

[Bobby Null]

Whatever the "easy" mode ends up being, it will be very manageable for that type of player. We've already announced manageable stretch goals to include some WICKED options for you hardcore types (believe me, you are gonna get punished ). The folks that want an easier time of it, will have that option as well. As long as making the game accessible does not influence or "dumb down" the difficult settings (which it won't), everyone wins. After all, we are making this game together. We want you ALL to enjoy it.

So will there actually end up being some form of easy mode then, that's separate from regular mode?

 

To reiterate my earlier post, I think a lot of gamers shy away from bumping up the difficulty, not necessarily because they want a casual experience, but because they view default as the optimal or intended form of the game. With that in mind I think it's important not to make the default difficulty experience too accessible or "dumbed down". It should really be a happy medium without the hand-holding of an "easy mode", or the hardcore brutality of the difficult modes.

 

I totally agree. The default mode should, and will be, a challenge for the average RPG player. I've not spoken to Josh about specifics for an "easy mode". This will either be a mode in and of itself, or we'll have a few options to lower specific gameplay features to more casual levels. Again, the goal will never be to trivialize the default difficulty settings.

[Grimlorn]

Casual mode:

 

Player has + 50% on health, physical and magical damage and defense

 

Enemies have - 50% on health, physical and magical damage and defense

 

Easy peasy.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Minttunator]

Thanks for clarifying that, Bobby! As long as there's harder difficulties for people who like challenge, I don't think anybody will actually mind an "easy mode" added for noobs.

[Sensuki]

Casual mode:

 

Player has + 50% on health, physical and magical damage and defense

 

Enemies have - 50% on health, physical and magical damage and defense

 

Easy peasy.

 

To be honest I really hate games that make difficulty settings this way.

 

I don't play easy mode so I don't care what they do for that, but I hope the harder difficulties don't just increase the hitpoints, damage and resistances.

 

Some better ideas are adding extra monsters to encounters, better AI scripting, smart encounter design.

 

One of the memorable ones from Durlag's Tower I remember was a set of platforms with bridges, the platforms contained Skeleton Archers (the stronger ones) and there were sleeping cloud and cloudkill traps everywhere, in order to disarm the traps you had to send your thief out ahead of the party, but you risked getting booked by the skeleton archers, so it required you to stealth in, disarm the trap, and then bolt back while you brought your fighters up into the fray.

That was a good set of encounters that weren't necessarily hard per se, but required smart play to beat, rather than just laziness.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Sensuki

[Tuco Benedicto]

Any variation of the difficulty setting (easier or harder, it doesn't matter) based on increased HP/damage is very lazy design in my book.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto

[Shardbearer]

Increased complexity of battles with the higher difficulties is really the only thing that tends to get me to replay games at higher difficulties. Just manipulating HP/Damage won't make me want to revisit the same battles.

[JeremyR]

I worry about this too, because I've never been able to get through any of the Infinity Engine games even on Easy. I just don't have the patience to constantly die, reload, die, reload, die reload.

 

Real time combat games are about thinking and reacting fast, neither of which I am good at. I muddled my way through the NWN engine games, because you basically only had one character and the rest were AI controlled, but even then I had to only play fighter class characters, because wizards were too much for to control in real time.

 

RPGs were never meant to be action games - that's why you take turns in pen & paper games rather than throw dice at each other.

[Tuco Benedicto]

I worry about this too, because I've never been able to get through any of the Infinity Engine games even on Easy. I just don't have the patience to constantly die, reload, die, reload, die reload.

You must be pretty terrible at playing them.

 

Real time combat games are about thinking and reacting fast

No, it's not. not when it's a real time with pause that allows you to give all the commands needed before unpausing it.

I'm not saying that you should like the system, and I'm a big fan of turn based games myself, but what you are claiming here is objectively false.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto