No autoleveling of skills (bethesda style)

[LazarusMP]

Here's a simple solution for those who want only skills to improve with use. Why don't you just discipline yourself to only spend XP on skills you've used and let the rest of us play how we like? I'm fine with you having the opinion that skills should only improve with use. Great. Play that way. But many of us don't agree with you and I don't see why your play preferences should force the rest of us into a play style we at lease dislike (if not outright abhor!). Play your way and I'll play mine. The classic 'gin XP and spend them how you like' system gives the broadest flexibility to accommodate a wide variety of playstyles.

[Knott]

When it comes to personal character development from a mechanics perspective.

The Freedom of customization will be my numer one priority. The more freedom to create the character I want to play the better.

 

An answer to a pervious example; the mage character who was always using a hammer, but only advanced his magic abilities.

I'd say Fine! If he wants to play a mage that beleives he is an expert with a hammer, but in reality really sucks at it, then fine. Its his choice. Its a weakness consciously chosen by the player.

 

Though, in most class-based leveling systems, you advance in a preset set of skills/abilities and your choices for customization will be very limited and if you dare advance outside the preset (if it is at all possible), you are usually punished for it (costing double or some other disproportional disadvantage).

[Kissamies]

I would prefer a well crafted skill improvement system with training and such, but people like their rewards just as Chunkyman said a few posts earlier. Got to have something awesome happen or you stop clicking the button eventually.

 

Could still have some ability boosting perks for doing certain things.

[Arkeus]

Some JRPG have a good way to do this: unlock a secondary effect of a spell or an advanced version of said spell when it has been used a number of times.

 

For example, keep the nomal XP system, but a fireball would get some minor but appreciable benefit if you use the spell a lot. Not something that utterly change the gameplay, but a nice 'perk' for using a certain type of ability.

[Aotrs Commander]

Could still have some ability boosting perks for doing certain things.

Actually, you could turn the whole pointless idea of achievements into something useful if you perhaps granted some bonuses for doing certain things. (Like if you kill X number of Y monster, you get a Z bonus to do something to them.) That would be a neat little thingy. I'm sure you could come up with cleverer ideas than that, but it's got potential. (Though probably not enough to warrent coding in practise on a relatively limited budget.)

Edited September 22, 2012 by Aotrs Commander

[eimatshya]

Here's a simple solution for those who want only skills to improve with use. Why don't you just discipline yourself to only spend XP on skills you've used and let the rest of us play how we like? I'm fine with you having the opinion that skills should only improve with use. Great. Play that way. But many of us don't agree with you and I don't see why your play preferences should force the rest of us into a play style we at lease dislike (if not outright abhor!). Play your way and I'll play mine. The classic 'gin XP and spend them how you like' system gives the broadest flexibility to accommodate a wide variety of playstyles.

 

That's just what I was going to suggest. If you want your skill advancement to be tied to the skills you use, when you level up, just put your skill points into the skills you've used. I usually do this in games like Fallout, where it works great, as well as in many pen and paper games. It can be a little trickier in third edition D&D style games, though, since your base attack bonus increases irrespective of what weapon you use. Still, it strikes me as the best solution since, as Chunkyman points out, XP systems don't encourage a disconnect between role playing and advancing your abilities.

 

Could still have some ability boosting perks for doing certain things.

Actually, you could turn the whole pointless idea of achievements into something useful if you perhaps granted some bonuses for doing certain things. (Like if you kill X number of Y monster, you get a Z bonus to do something to them.) That would be a neat little thingy. I'm sure you could come up with cleverer ideas than that, but it's got potential. (Though probably not enough to warrent coding in practise on a relatively limited budget.)

 

I think New Vegas had this to some extent. Certain achievements would convey a combat bonus (I can't remember the specifics). Anyway, I'd be on board with such a system as long as skill advancement was primarily tied to an XP system. It would add some flavor to your character: "Because I've killed 200 orcs, my increased familiarity with what makes them bleed has afforded me a heightened crit chance against them" (or something like that).

Edited September 22, 2012 by eimatshya

[Tauron]

This game's template will be based upon BG, IWD etc. Live with it. If you dont like it, autolvl immunity for it.

[Gurkog]

I think the leveling mechanics might be more like arcanum/fallout. I would be happy if they were, but there is nothing wrong with a more DnD inspired system. I am sure i could have fun with anything as long as the characters, quests and stories are awesome.

[eimatshya]

I think the leveling mechanics might be more like arcanum/fallout. I would be happy if they were, but there is nothing wrong with a more DnD inspired system. I am sure i could have fun with anything as long as the characters, quests and stories are awesome.

 

Why do you think they will use a Fallout/Arcanum style system over a D&D inspired one? We already know that they're using classes, so that implies a pretty substantial difference from the Fallout/Arcanum system right there (and one much more similar to D&D). I too would be happy if the system was more like Fallout/Arcanum/Lionheart, but I don't remember seeing anything to make me think Project Eternity won't be taking the approach of D&D type games.

[Gurkog]

I think the leveling mechanics might be more like arcanum/fallout. I would be happy if they were, but there is nothing wrong with a more DnD inspired system. I am sure i could have fun with anything as long as the characters, quests and stories are awesome.

 

Why do you think they will use a Fallout/Arcanum style system over a D&D inspired one? We already know that they're using classes, so that implies a pretty substantial difference from the Fallout/Arcanum system right there (and one much more similar to D&D). I too would be happy if the system was more like Fallout/Arcanum/Lionheart, but I don't remember seeing anything to make me think Project Eternity won't be taking the approach of D&D type games.

 

They have Tim Cain designing the core mechanics. Tim designed both of those and both were very well received. Classes could just act as modifiers to base values in skills and minimum number of points available to spend in combat or non-combat areas.

[Nakia]

Update on Kickstarter Page. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/314089?ref=activity

 

non-combat skills are separate from combat skills, use different resources and are all useful. It is possible to use them to avoid combat. Check it out.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Nakia

[alanschu]

Just a request, please no horrible autoleveling of skills based on what skills you use. I have seen a few people suggest getting xp to level up the skills you use and I say please don't. The few games that have done this are horrible. Yes, it makes sense that the weapon/tools you use would level up and if you don't use it then it wouldn't. However, skyrim shows exactly why its a bad idea. A lot of times you do not use important skills that often, take speech, sneaking, or some of the few other skills. Also, you are often forced to use skills you don't want to because of various reasons. I am usually a mage player, but I often have to use a sword/wepon because my mana would run out, or my magic isn't powerful enough. So my XP would end up leveling my sword skill instead of my magic use, which is NOT what I want to level up. So, I think it would be best just to go old school, collect XP regardless of what you use, then distribute them how you wish.

 

 

This sounds more like an issue with how the game mechanics are set up. If you're "forced" to use a skill you'd rather not use, it's a problem with how the skills are balanced in the game. There's nothing inherently wrong with "use to improve" types of improvements.

[Nakia]

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

 

This is going to upset some of you as it sounds to me as if actually using the skill is going to be important. You get different points for combat and non-combat.

 

No experience for killing things.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Nakia

[alanschu]

I agree with the OP. Autoleveling of skills is the worst system ever for computer games. Realism may seem like a good argument but does it really enchance gameplay? Absolutely not. It just forces player to repeat same actions over and over again to raise skills. And it's still not very realistic that you become master smith by crafting bajillion simple iron daggers. Or master swordsman by hitting mudcrab ten thousand times.

 

You're right, it's not very realistic that you become a master smith by crafting a bajillion simple iron daggers. Maybe you shouldn't.

 

Keep in mind, other level up schemes typically require the player to "repeat the same actions over and over again" too. How about if other ways to improve your skills (and arguably faster) were to learn about them by talking with people, apprenticing an expert, or reading about them?

[kenup]

Completely agree with the OP. The TES way of leveling up is very, very broken. I "lost" ten levels because Alchemy was leveling me up and didn't have the equipment to much the new level scaled creatures; that only in Skyrim. But the real problem is that to be balanced or max the skills you want, you have to grind a lot(on top of min-maxing all the time). It doesn't support alternate play styles.

[DefrostFX]

While I didn't mind "level as you use", I too agree wouldn't fit too well here. Someone mentioned something akin to getting ZP upon completing a quest or task, and I would have no issues with that as the way I see it, that final EXP tally is a "collimation" of everything you did to complete that quest, as such you are overall a better adventurer because of it. So it makes a bit of sense to divy out points to what you wish to learn. I'm sure their could be some kind of multi-levei....leveling....scheme, that has a combo of both quest exp, and skill-based useage as well.

[Nakia]

Update on Kickstarter Page. http://www.kickstart...89?ref=activity

 

non-combat skills are separate from combat skills, use different resources and are all useful. It is possible to use them to avoid combat. Check it out.

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

 

This is going to upset some of you as it sounds to me as if actually using the skill is going to be important. You get different points for combat and non-combat.

 

No experience for killing things.

 

I hate to quote my self but you really should read the update 7 on the Kickstarter page.

[alanschu]

Curious what exactly that means.

 

Is there two different types of XP pools? Does that mean that skills from one feed into the corresponding pool? Could mean a couple of other things.

[Nakia]

Curious what exactly that means.

 

Is there two different types of XP pools? Does that mean that skills from one feed into the corresponding pool? Could mean a couple of other things.

 

:D Could mean they haven't figured out how to do it yet. You get XP for your accomplishments. Hopefully we will get more details. Once they know hat they will do.

 

Have faith, my friends, have faith.

 

 

Edit: This may mean I could solo my thief if I wished.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Nakia

[Sylvius the Mad]

 

The XP way is for kiddies who want too much freedom. "i'm a mage, but I should be able to run around with a hammer at any time and still improve my magic skill"

Because XP is an abstraction. Trying to judge it based on realism is like judging the quality of a cake based on how it fits within Logical Positivism.

[Gurkog]

It will probably be achievement based XP in the vein of Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. In that you gained experience for advancing quests, discovering some stuff, and can earn skill points from various NPCs (quest reward usually) and books (with enough in the research skill to read them). Any character could do pretty much anything, but the different races (classes basicly) had their own set of 3 special abilities that a player can spend experience on.

 

EDIT: In that game combat does not give experience unless it is used to finish a quest goal.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Gurkog

[eimatshya]

Curious what exactly that means.

 

Is there two different types of XP pools? Does that mean that skills from one feed into the corresponding pool? Could mean a couple of other things.

 

Perhaps it will be a system in which you get XP from completing objectives, and when you gain enough, you level up. On the level up screen you have various points to distribute, special abilities to buy, that sort of thing. You get a certain number of points that you can spend on combat skills and and a certain number of points that you can spend on non-combat skills, but the points come from separate pools, so they don't affect each other. How many points you get for each pool could potentially be determined by class, level, intelligence, race etc. Having segregated point pools would explain why you don't have to choose between Magic Missile and herbalism.

 

Such a system would be roughly analogous to the separation of ability score points and skill points in third edition D&D. You don't have to choose between raising your strength and raising your perform skill because you don't use the same points to purchase them. This is the opposite of, say, the system in Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines where you have a single pool of experience points to draw from for all character advancement, thus forcing you to choose between combat and non-combat skills.

[Piccolo]

Well, the latest kickstarter update makes me feel a little bit happier about having an XP system.

 

They seem to be making a conscious effort to avoid the levelling system turning into a simplistic "kill things to get XP" affair.