The possibility of LGBT characters in Project Eternity - Official Thread

[Concerned Reader]

We must have evil LGBT-people in the game too.

I would be entirely fine with this because LGBT people are just like everyone else. They can be good or evil or inbetween. I don't know if it's a matter of MUST HAVE, but it would certainly be interesting to see.

[Perzyn]

I don't mind LGBT characters in the game. There are few conditions though, that have to be men in execution of such characters.

 

1. If they are there, they should be there for a reason. I was not one of those making uproar after gay romance option for Shepard in Mass Effect 3. No one forced it on me, I did not follow the route, not my problem. But that romance option was virtually the only raison d'etre of the character. If he was removed nothing of value would be lost in my playthrough. So, if there are to be LGBT characters in Project Eternity, let their orientation play a sensible part in their story. Otherwise it's just pointless pandereing and introducing Token Minority.

 

2. If there are any romance options for PC that include LGBT characters, they obviously must be purely optional. Including such options is one thing, shoving them into player's face is another.

 

3. Any use of this theme NEEDS to be subtly and well written. Since questioning characters sexuality and similar themes are not crux of the Fantasy RPG story (I'd sooner expet visual novel centred on such ideas) they must be crafted so that they fit with narrative. What I want to say boils down to: include them only if there's narrative purpose and not for the sake of it. So yeah, similar to point 1.

[Luckmann]

YES!

And the pedophiles and zoophiles NEED TO BE REPRESENTED ASAP!! Some of the prominent obsidian developers might have this particular sexuality tendency(just for the sake of argument, not offending obsidian)!!

DEAL WITH IT!!! WE MUST HAVE PEDOPHILES AND ZOOPHILES IN THIS GAME! Otherwise what will everyone think? that obsidian is some kind of monster that opresses people sexual preference? WE CANT HAVE THAT!!

DEAL WITH IT!!

 

Idiot (sorry mods, but this is the appropriate word), stop mixing homosexuality with pedophilia and zoophilia. They're only comparable in your sick little brain.

 

This guy is spewing hate speech all over the place. I wonder why is he still kept here.

Technically, pedophilia and zoophila are also sexual orientations (or can be, anyway; many that practice it are just disturbed individuals or mentally deficient). Like it or not, the comparison is apt, especially from the standpoint of arguments on inclusiveness.

[working man hole]

YES!

And the pedophiles and zoophiles NEED TO BE REPRESENTED ASAP!! Some of the prominent obsidian developers might have this particular sexuality tendency(just for the sake of argument, not offending obsidian)!!

DEAL WITH IT!!! WE MUST HAVE PEDOPHILES AND ZOOPHILES IN THIS GAME! Otherwise what will everyone think? that obsidian is some kind of monster that opresses people sexual preference? WE CANT HAVE THAT!!

DEAL WITH IT!!

 

Idiot (sorry mods, but this is the appropriate word), stop mixing homosexuality with pedophilia and zoophilia. They're only comparable in your sick little brain.

 

This guy is spewing hate speech all over the place. I wonder why is he still kept here.

 

Why would you insult him like that? All of those mentioned above belong into the same group of mental disorders. It is true that one is harmful to other people and the other is not - that's why pedophilia is prosecuted while LGBT is not, or at least shouldn't be.

[working man hole]

we just live our lives and keep our sexuality preferences private, like most people do.

 

Yeah, hetero pairs holding hands and kissing in public keep their sexuality preferences in private... or when they mention their husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends.. that hot guy/girl that passed by.. they keep it private? Not.

There's a hetero parade every single minute 365 days in a year, imbecile.

 

Except heterosexuality has a biological purpose, and is kind of necessary for continuation of species. Don't try to imply that queersexuality has equal biological worth as heterosexuality.

Edited September 20, 2012 by working man hole

[Malcador]

Heh, if they have some evil gay guy in the game I can see them getting heat over it. Outrage is fashionable these days, after all.

[Luckmann]

YES!

And the pedophiles and zoophiles NEED TO BE REPRESENTED ASAP!! Some of the prominent obsidian developers might have this particular sexuality tendency(just for the sake of argument, not offending obsidian)!!

DEAL WITH IT!!! WE MUST HAVE PEDOPHILES AND ZOOPHILES IN THIS GAME! Otherwise what will everyone think? that obsidian is some kind of monster that opresses people sexual preference? WE CANT HAVE THAT!!

DEAL WITH IT!!

 

Idiot (sorry mods, but this is the appropriate word), stop mixing homosexuality with pedophilia and zoophilia. They're only comparable in your sick little brain.

 

This guy is spewing hate speech all over the place. I wonder why is he still kept here.

 

Why would you insult him like that? All of those mentioned above belong into the same group of mental disorders. It is true that one is harmful to other people and the other is not - that's why pedophilia is prosecuted while LGBT is not, or at least shouldn't be.

Whether something is persecuted or not, however, is a matter of culture. Here in the real world, the "one is rape, the other isn't" might hold water (hell, it is even arguable which of any of those are actually rape) in our world, but there is nothing to say that in a fantasy society - much like has been argued by many people; "some might swing that way, others may not" - that it's the other way around.

 

Pedophilia and Zoophilia (or any -philia) can just as well be argued on the same platform as LGBT.

[Pidesco]

This thread is meant for posters who wish to see LGBT characters in the world of Project Eternity.

Won't that make it a bit one-sided?

 

The hope is that the people who don't want LGBT characters in Project Eternity will turn their attentions to other subjects.

[Valorian]

YES!

And the pedophiles and zoophiles NEED TO BE REPRESENTED ASAP!! Some of the prominent obsidian developers might have this particular sexuality tendency(just for the sake of argument, not offending obsidian)!!

DEAL WITH IT!!! WE MUST HAVE PEDOPHILES AND ZOOPHILES IN THIS GAME! Otherwise what will everyone think? that obsidian is some kind of monster that opresses people sexual preference? WE CANT HAVE THAT!!

DEAL WITH IT!!

 

Idiot (sorry mods, but this is the appropriate word), stop mixing homosexuality with pedophilia and zoophilia. They're only comparable in your sick little brain.

 

This guy is spewing hate speech all over the place. I wonder why is he still kept here.

 

Why would you insult him like that? All of those mentioned above belong into the same group of mental disorders. It is true that one is harmful to other people and the other is not - that's why pedophilia is prosecuted while LGBT is not, or at least shouldn't be.

 

Oh the humanity if you're not actually a clone of that idiot and defending yourself.. In case you're not, there are 2 idiots too many on this forums and I'm just using proper terms. Homosexuality is not a mental disorder and you should stop flaunting your ignorance.

 

The sad part is.. even an idiot could learn that in the era of google. Therefore, a big sorry to all idiots out there!

Edited September 20, 2012 by Valorian

[Darth Trethon]

we just live our lives and keep our sexuality preferences private, like most people do.

 

Yeah, hetero pairs holding hands and kissing in public keep their sexuality preferences in private... or when they mention their husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends.. that hot guy/girl that passed by.. they keep it private? Not.

There's a hetero parade every single minute 365 days in a year, imbecile.

 

Except heterosexuality has a biological purpose, and is kind of necessary for continuation of species. Don't try to imply that queersexuality has equal worth as heterosexuality.

 

Crudely put but accurate. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you are it is absolutely certain you are the result of a heterosexual pairing.

[evdk]

This thread is meant for posters who wish to see LGBT characters in the world of Project Eternity.

Won't that make it a bit one-sided?

 

The hope is that the people who don't want LGBT characters in Project Eternity will turn their attentions to other subjects.

Doubtful.

[Gurkog]

Transgender is easy to implement... Bioware did it in BG1 with the belt of gender swapping. I thought it was rather humorous and good fun for everyone!

[Grimlorn]

This thread is meant for posters who wish to see LGBT characters in the world of Project Eternity.

Won't that make it a bit one-sided?

 

The hope is that the people who don't want LGBT characters in Project Eternity will turn their attentions to other subjects.

If you ostracize people who aren't in favor of something, doesn't that just change the message and make it seem like everyone is in favor of LGBT. I don't care either way and trust Obsidian to choose what they want to include, but a lot of this is just people lobbying for LGBT in a game and doesn't really deserve a thread on the subject. I mean I could see LGBT stuff discussed in off topic but on a game developing forum?

[Valorian]

we just live our lives and keep our sexuality preferences private, like most people do.

 

Yeah, hetero pairs holding hands and kissing in public keep their sexuality preferences in private... or when they mention their husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends.. that hot guy/girl that passed by.. they keep it private? Not.

There's a hetero parade every single minute 365 days in a year, imbecile.

 

Except heterosexuality has a biological purpose, and is kind of necessary for continuation of species. Don't try to imply that queersexuality has equal biological worth as heterosexuality.

 

Ok, so heterosexuals breed idiots like you. What's your purpose in this world? Right, you're a useless worm who talks **** about hundreds of millions of people whose only "fault" is to be attracted by people of the same sex; because that way he feels better about his sad, pathetic and lonely life. And about his ugly face too.

[Giantevilhead]

I think the problem here is that no one has articulated the reason why there should be LGBT representation, or representation for minorities and women as well.

 

Lack of representation is not a sign of active repression. A story that has no women is not necessarily sexist, a story without minorities is not necessarily racist, and a story without LGBT is not necessarily anti-gay.

 

The problem is that it creates a culture of exclusion. There is nothing wrong with a story where all the important characters are male or white or straight. However, what happens when 99% of all stories have only important male characters or white characters or straight characters with no representation for women, minorities, or LGBT. None of those stories may be racist or sexist or anti-gay, but a complete lack of representation marginalizes all those people. Even though the stories themselves may have no prejudices or animosity towards anyone, the culture you create is one that says the experiences and struggles of these people are not significant or worth exploring.

 

There is also the problem of how those groups are represented. Let's say that there are ten gay characters in a fictional universe and nine of them are evil. Even if all those characters are well written and fully realized, the implications of having 90% of all gay character be bad guys isn't good. Now let's say that there are 100 straight characters in that same universe and twenty of them are evil. Even though there are more evil straight characters, it's not as bad due to the fact that it only constitutes 20% of the total number of straight characters.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[Darth Trethon]

Transgender is easy to implement... Bioware did it in BG1 with the belt of gender swapping. I thought it was rather humorous and good fun for everyone!

 

BioWare is......well.....BioWare. The last thing I would ever want to see Obsidian do is follow in BioWare's footsteps and I don't mean that just in the context of sexuality in games.

[septembervirgin]

Of course, the possibility of an entirely gay and lesbian knighthood rocks the house.

[Elerond]

Inclusion of the LGBT characters: I am fine with them. I often play cRPGs as homosexual female.

Inclusion of zoophilia: If it in about same manner what it was in Arcanum, I am okey with that too.

Inclusion of pedophilia: That is more tricky, as there is pedophile hunts every were. So including it on any level to game may be more trouble than it is any worth.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privileged/

 

I think everyone here should read this.

[Concerned Reader]

we just live our lives and keep our sexuality preferences private, like most people do.

 

Yeah, hetero pairs holding hands and kissing in public keep their sexuality preferences in private... or when they mention their husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends.. that hot guy/girl that passed by.. they keep it private? Not.

There's a hetero parade every single minute 365 days in a year, imbecile.

 

Except heterosexuality has a biological purpose, and is kind of necessary for continuation of species. Don't try to imply that queersexuality has equal worth as heterosexuality.

 

Crudely put but accurate. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you are it is absolutely certain you are the result of a heterosexual pairing.

Also incorrect. Homosexuality has a biological purpose in that a homosexual couple doesn't bring a new child into the world, but can take care of abandoned children. It's seen in the animal world, and it's seen in our society as well through adoption.

 

Back on topic:

 

I think the problem here is that no one has articulated the reason why there should be LGBT representation, or representation for minorities and women as well.

 

Lack of representation is not a sign of active repression. A story that has no women is not necessarily sexist, a story without minorities is not necessarily racist, and a story without LGBT is not necessarily anti-gay.

 

The problem is that it creates a culture of exclusion. There is nothing wrong with a story where all the important characters are male or white or straight. However, what happens when 99% of all stories have only important male characters or white characters or straight characters with no representation for women, minorities, or LGBT. None of those stories may be racist or sexist or anti-gay, but a complete lack of representation marginalizes all those people. Even though the stories themselves may have no prejudices or animosity towards anyone, the culture you create is one that says the experiences and struggles of these people are not significant or worth exploring.

 

There is also the problem of how those groups are represented. Let's say that there are ten gay characters in a fictional universe and nine of them are evil. Even if all those characters are well written and fully realized, the implications of having 90% of all gay character be bad guys isn't good. Now let's say that there are 100 straight characters in that same universe and twenty of them are evil. Even though there are more evil straight characters, it's not as bad due to the fact that it only constitutes 20% of the total number of straight characters.

I agree 100% with this. Earlier someone said that there should be an explicit reason for a LGBT character to exist. I disagree because it implies that they have to have some sort of specific sob story related to their sexuality to vindicate their existance. That's the wrong way to approach it. I'm not saying that their sexuality should just be tacked on as an afterthought. I actually really liked how Bioware handled it with Cortez because it was an integral part of his character. His husband was very very important to him. It wasn't flaunted or focused down on. It was treated like any other relationship would have been. He didn't pull the PC aside and go "HEY, I'M GAY AND I HAVE THIS PROBLEM. THIS GAY PROBLEM THAT I NEED YOU TO FIX. LOOK AT HOW GAY I AM." It was woven into his narrative.

[Grimlorn]

Ok, so heterosexuals breed idiots like you.

Don't heterosexuals also breed gay people?

[Darth Trethon]

I think the problem here is that no one has articulated the reason why there should be LGBT representation, or representation for minorities and women as well.

 

Lack of representation is not a sign of active repression. A story that has no women is not necessarily sexist, a story without minorities is not necessarily racist, and a story without LGBT is not necessarily anti-gay.

 

The problem is that it creates a culture of exclusion. There is nothing wrong with a story where all the important characters are male or white or straight. However, what happens when 99% of all stories have only important male characters or white characters or straight characters with no representation for women, minorities, or LGBT. None of those stories may be racist or sexist or anti-gay, but a complete lack of representation marginalizes all those people. Even though the stories themselves may have no prejudices or animosity towards anyone, the culture you create is one that says the experiences and struggles of these people are not significant or worth exploring.

 

There is also the problem of how those groups are represented. Let's say that there are ten gay characters in a fictional universe and nine of them are evil. Even if all those characters are well written and fully realized, the implications of having 90% of all gay character be bad guys isn't good. Now let's say that there are 100 straight characters in that same universe and twenty of them are evil. Even though there are more evil straight characters, it's not as bad due to the fact that it only constitutes 20% of the total number of straight characters.

 

So what struggles aren't worth exploring then? Because if that's the case there are billions of non sexually-related struggles not represented in games that are probably far more common and should probably take priority. But at the end of the day I rather have Obsidian stay true to their development plan and tell us one amazing story than get tangled up in diverting resources in pleasing all kinds of minorities.

 

Another problem is that when you start having too many sexually-related struggles explored in a game at the expense other non sexually-related struggles it starts to stick out and be evident and it gets rather irritating. This should not be a game about all the ways in which people screw and what they want to screw and the societal hardships of not being able to find screwing partners.

[Luckmann]

This thread is meant for posters who wish to see LGBT characters in the world of Project Eternity.

Won't that make it a bit one-sided?

 

The hope is that the people who don't want LGBT characters in Project Eternity will turn their attentions to other subjects.

I think that is as likely to happen as making the people who want LGBT characters in Project Eternity turn their attentions to other subjects.

 

Making a thread specifically dealing with the LGBT topic, specifically for the LGBT people... actually, that might work. Maybe if we just ignore this thread enough, it will get buried somewhere. Is there any chance you could sticky it on the 5th page? Then we can refer everyone there.

[Gfted1]

Everyone needs to stop the personal attacks. Discuss the post, not the poster.

[Sarog]

The problem is that it creates a culture of exclusion. There is nothing wrong with a story where all the important characters are male or white or straight. However, what happens when 99% of all stories have only important male characters or white characters or straight characters with no representation for women, minorities, or LGBT. None of those stories may be racist or sexist or anti-gay, but a complete lack of representation marginalizes all those people. Even though the stories themselves may have no prejudices or animosity towards anyone, the culture you create is one that says the experiences and struggles of these people are not significant or worth exploring.

 

No single work of media is in and of itself responsible for larger patterns of culture. Nor is any single work of media responsible for addressing/overturning such patterns unless it is explicitly concerned with it.

 

When a work of fiction, set in a world that isn't our own, is deliberately concerned with the representation of specific real-world demographics with the intent of advocating the interests of said real-world demographics using the fiction as a proxy, then that fiction become political allegory.

 

Political allegory is its own genre, and it can't be mixed into other sorts of fiction without leaving the bitter taste of allegory behind.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Sarog