[Merged] Gods save us another romance thread

[Malcador]

Well, that's an amusing stance, heh.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Is it hostile if I mention that I read your post while 'Tain't No Sin by Tom Waits and sung by William S. Burroughs is playing on my work speakers and the absurdity of the situation made me giggle like a fool? Cheer up, Merin. It's a beautiful day. Just not a beautiful day to suggest romance in a classic cRPG, y'know?

[Wintersong]

Why do people want romances in games anyway ? Just curious.

Playing PnP D&D several years ago as DM, my group of players had a female NPC join them (her skills as multiclass fighter/thief allowed her to balance a bit the small party).

 

Through different adventures, the party's fighter and her bonded as companions and later as friends (they had similar aligment and some common interests, unlike the other members of the party). Eventually, the fighter started a romance with her and finally married her (they didn't have any kind of sex until after married, I mention this just in case someone need to know that... oh, and they gave life to two girls and a boy).

 

Was that because the player feared cooties and needed to feed some kind of sexual fantasy in the game? Nope. The player was just a guy like any other, with some good social skills in the real world, that also liked to party and had his "adventures" with girls like any other guy. But the same as he at some point understood that his character trusted the NPC as companion and later as friend, at some other point after some in-game years he also understood that his character being romantincally interested in the NPC was natural. Fortunately for the character, the love interest shared feelings so it was happy ending... for about a decade. Then there was blood but that's another story.

 

Meanwhile, the wizard of the party had developed feelings for a fellow female wizard of their city but being the "lone wolf" type (sort of), he just keep himself apart from his love interest.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, wait. videogames? That thing that lacks a human being that can dinamically react to the player's intentions?

 

Well, I don't want romances as much as the possibility of them. If the game is truly to deal with mature themes related to the human being, feelings are a theme that must be in. Not just love. Friendship, rivalry, hate, love, envy...

 

If the resources allow it (I mention this because it's the straw guy mentioned always) and it makes sense, I'd like romance(s?) to be a real possiblity with a companion or NPC. Or at the very least, between some companions/NPCs that are important to the story!! A serious treated romance. It doesn't matter if it ends well or not. Certainly, I hope that it's not this childish/ignorant notion of some people here that "Romance = Sex". If the romance is between a human being and a golem, I don't see much sex going on there.

 

A Jedi knows how dangerous love can be.

[Rosbjerg]

All right - if someone is annoying you, we have an ignore option on this board. Now any further derailing, on anyones part, and I'll start handing out warnings.

[Merin]

Is it hostile if I mention that I read your post while 'Tain't No Sin by Tom Waits and sung by William S. Burroughs is playing on my work speakers and the absurdity of the situation made me giggle like a fool? Cheer up, Merin. It's a beautiful day. Just not a beautiful day to suggest romance in a classic cRPG, y'know?

 

Nope, even the sense of a mild jab at me there is absolutely fine by me - not that I should be the final authority of what is or is not acceptable.

 

Let's just move on and work on disagreeing with one another on romance in cRPGs.

 

I, for one, won't be crying if Obsidian decides that their inclusion goes against their vision.

 

Will you be upset if they say their vision includes romance? I'd guess yes, but maybe you'd give them the benefit of the doubt?

[TwinkieGorilla]

Will you be upset if they say their vision includes romance? I'd guess yes, but maybe you'd give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

Upset? Nah. Mildly disappointed maybe...since it would feel like pandering. As for benefit of the doubt I haven't seriously for a second imagined they'd take a BioWarian approach to such a thing just because people appear to be clamoring for it.

[Malcador]

"I was really hoping there'd be more maturity on the Obsidian forums. Naive, I guess."

 

Gotta dig that passive aggressiveness

 

Interesting story Wintersong, you're a different DM than I've ever had - we'd not have gotten an NPC in the first place, hehe. How long did that player take to RP being with the NPC though, game wise ?

[Merin]

Will you be upset if they say their vision includes romance? I'd guess yes, but maybe you'd give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

Upset? Nah. Mildly disappointed maybe...since it would feel like pandering. As for benefit of the doubt I haven't seriously for a second imagined they'd take a BioWarian approach to such a thing just because people appear to be clamoring for it.

 

Let's us agree, then, that the "BioWare approach" - if we can just shape that to mean a negative, poorly contrived, and pandering effort at fan-service which seems to be at least part of the current BioWare design philosophy - is not to be desired.

 

In that, I feel, we are on the same page.

 

"I was really hoping there'd be more maturity on the Obsidian forums. Naive, I guess."

 

Gotta dig that passive aggressiveness

 

That is certainly taken out of context, as that update was from the previous day.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Merin

[The Sharmat]

I really hope most of the people in favor of it aren't specifically keeping the stereotypical 'Biowarian' romance in mind when they think of it. That's really not what I want.

 

And as someone that's fine with romance being included, I'm also quite fine with it not being in the game at all.

[Reddie]

Upset? Nah. Mildly disappointed maybe...since it would feel like pandering. As for benefit of the doubt I haven't seriously for a second imagined they'd take a BioWarian approach to such a thing just because people appear to be clamoring for it.

 

Wasn't it your point that everyone who would like romances wants them BioWare way? Just trying to take a grasp here.

[The Sharmat]

In his defense, what people want and what Obsidian is likely to do are not necessarily the same thing. They don't have a reputation for pandering.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Wasn't it your point that everyone who would like romances wants them BioWare way? Just trying to take a grasp here.

 

I always feel better after taking a grasp.

 

Anyway, no. My point(s) as follows:

 

1) Videogames are a poor medium to tackle the subject.

2) When it happens, its usually embarrassing, juvenile or clumsy.

3) The people really up in arms are, most likely, the type who want the BioWarian version of this.

4) That said, the casual take on the subject is frivolous enough that it needn't be utilized in the first place especially since: see 1 & 2.

[Reddie]

With 2 I do agree, but with 1 - text-based game seems just as fine to tackle this as a text-based book. The only factor left is how skilled writer is. No?

[TwinkieGorilla]

With 2 I do agree, but with 1 - text-based game seems just as fine to tackle this as a text-based book. The only factor left is how skilled writer is. No?

 

Yes. Which brings us back to number 1.

 

Look, if anybody can do it right it's probably these guys. But do I want time wasted on such nonsense? No. Would I actually ask for it? Hell no. Would I start a thread insisting a cRPG include it? Oh, hell no.

[The Sharmat]

Fair enough. It's a question of different priorities. Not sure why everyone gets so worked up over it.

 

Well, actually I think I do know: Understandable reactionism to the less pleasant aspects of BSN. But still.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Understandable reactionism to the less pleasant aspects of BSN. But still.

 

Don't give me that "but still". That kind of trend is one of the major factors of the perpetual decline of RPGs in the past decade plus.

[evdk]

With 2 I do agree, but with 1 - text-based game seems just as fine to tackle this as a text-based book. The only factor left is how skilled writer is. No?

Trouble is that most of the writers we seem to be getting are Hollywood rejects judged by Tinseltown too poor to be even doing reboots of remakes. And then they try to make everything engaging and cinematic. Thank **** for Obsidian.

Edited September 21, 2012 by evdk

[eselle28]

I suppose I'm mildly in favor of them. I've enjoyed romances in other games, including two that are on the inspiration list for Project: Eternity. I think it would be possible for the game to include similar ones, which added content for those who enjoyed it but didn't suck the life out of the rest of the game the way that those in Dragon Age 2 tended to.

 

But they do need to be written properly and to fit in with the rest of the game. If for whatever reason, no one on staff cares to write them or the characters who end up being companions don't end up being feasible candidates for romance, that's the way things work out and the game will still be an amazing experience.

[Delterius]

With 2 I do agree, but with 1 - text-based game seems just as fine to tackle this as a text-based book. The only factor left is how skilled writer is. No?

 

Yes. Which brings us back to number 1.

 

Look, if anybody can do it right it's probably these guys. But do I want time wasted on such nonsense? No. Would I actually ask for it? Hell no. Would I start a thread insisting a cRPG include it? Oh, hell no.

 

The problem's BioWare.

 

BioWare adds romances to their games as a feature, after all people liked that sort of thing in Shadows of Amn so let's do that more often. And as with anything that is done because its popular, it ran the risk of becoming hollow - like Minsc's character becoming a one key note. And hollow it became: Romances have become more and more about stereotypes and less interactive.

 

That, coupled with the idea that the player's hand must be held into every game feature culimanates in DA2. Where not even silly things like characterization stand in the way of the player's wish fulfillment. So much for deep, romantic stories.

 

Instead, Romances should be a suggestion for the game's story. Nothing to insist upon, like a kind of combat system or whatever.

[Grimlorn]

With 2 I do agree, but with 1 - text-based game seems just as fine to tackle this as a text-based book. The only factor left is how skilled writer is. No?

No, in RPGs there are choices. In books you're being told a story. In RPGs you're role playing the character in the story.

 

You can't make every game story about the romance with the romance being a main theme of the game. It makes no sense to do this. And even if you do it, it's one character of one sex. That means people who aren't attracted to that sex, which is about half, won't have a romance, so what happens they petition for their option for romance, and then their favorite characters they can't romance. It's a dumb, slippery slope where romance is the main theme of the game instead of the role playing elements.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Torgo]

This is just my two cents, I thought the romances with the Handmaiden and Visas Marr in KotOR 2 were very well done and actually added to the story. I personally don't think a romance must happen, but can remain an option in a companions storyline that actually impacts or is commented on within the game rather than happening in a vacuum.

[Grimlorn]

This is just my two cents, I thought the romances with the Handmaiden and Visas Marr in KotOR 2 were very well done and actually added to the story. I personally don't think a romance must happen, but can remain an option in a companions storyline that actually impacts or is commented on within the game rather than happening in a vacuum.

Has anyone who says Kotor 2 had good romances actually played Kotor 2 recently? I played and beat it last month when the restored content mod was finished.

 

Visas is hitting on you right away for no reason. And as soon as Visas joins your party the Handmaiden is jealous of her. These romances were pretty Biowarian in that they only required about 2-3 conversations with them before they were in love with you. And both pursue/want you.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Grimlorn

[The Sharmat]

Visas is extremely psychologically disturbed. I don't think it was supposed to seem like a healthy attachment.

 

Handmaiden worked fine with her character arc, I thought.

[Vargr Raekr]

I feel that romances as such should only be included if they are going to be this well done:

 

 

Of all the games listed as inspiration for Project Eternity, only Shadows of Amn really has any romance content; and this is by far the best done romance scene in the game.

 

Seeing as most of the lead writers on this project are not interested in writing romances, we would likely not get much in the way of results if we forced their hands. I don't see how it would be a good idea to take them away from implementing features that they are passionate about, in order to implement features that they are not.

 

Given this, I would rather have either excellent incidental content such as the above, or nothing at all.

[Reddie]

With 2 I do agree, but with 1 - text-based game seems just as fine to tackle this as a text-based book. The only factor left is how skilled writer is. No?

 

Yes. Which brings us back to number 1.

 

Look, if anybody can do it right it's probably these guys. But do I want time wasted on such nonsense? No. Would I actually ask for it? Hell no. Would I start a thread insisting a cRPG include it? Oh, hell no.

 

Okay, whatever floats your boat. I'm just trying to get to you with this: i feel that you don't really think this topic is unappropriate for video games, them being childish and so. It all gets down to you having other priorities. Which you are obviously fully entitled to have. But that's what makes difference between uncaring and unwanting (does that word even exists? ).

 

 

Trouble is that most of the writers we seem to be getting are Hollywood rejects judged by Tinseltown too poor to be even doing reboots of remakes. And then they try to make everything engaging and cinematic. Thank **** for Obsidian.

 

I agree, and that's why I see Project Eternity as a perfect opportunity. There is a talentend writing squad on board that don't have to give a flying fish about drawing audience with fanservice. They *can* create interesting romance subplots, and I would like them to because it may be the only shot at this ever in the gaming industry.

 

With 2 I do agree, but with 1 - text-based game seems just as fine to tackle this as a text-based book. The only factor left is how skilled writer is. No?

No, in RPGs there are choices. In books you're being told a story. In RPGs you're role playing the character in the story.

In text-based cRPGs the only real differences are some aspects of physical presentation - which is not relevant in case of romances - and that story is branching instead of linear. The latter does not present any additional obstacles with regards to romances than with overall storytelling.

 

You can't make every game story about the romance with the romance being a main theme of the game. [...] It's a dumb, slippery slope where romance is the main theme of the game instead of the role playing elements.

 

I don't really get what you are talking about here. Nobody ever asked for what you're describing.