Mature themes you'd like to see in the game

[HangedMan]

I love those ideas, aluminium,

[Milten]

Theme of government corruption. For some reason it always shown as isolated case when some villain (without friends and family of course) hides his corrupted identity from his whitehearted chief, rather than self-supporting system.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Maybe some kind of political strife, terrorism and oppression? You have to decide which side to help even though both sides have done some bad things. Helping victims of a famine?

 

I wouldn't mind sexism, I mean I'm there to prove em wrong right? Also some poverty or economic issues would be interesting. It would be cool if humans were the ones considered the outcasts for once too instead of the elves or dwarves.

 

That's what I can think of so far. ^^

[DYWYPI]

Themes should be included because they fit with the message or story that the game is trying to convey, not because they are or are not mature.

 

In any case, I would much prefer to see the some of the more grand-scale philosophical points that I see in this thread - nature of good or evil, differences between culture, that sort of thing - than a perfunctory "Hey, look, rape and slavery, that makes us deep, right?".

[Merin]

Themes should be included because they fit with the message or story that the game is trying to convey, not because they are or are not mature.

 

In any case, I would much prefer to see the some of the more grand-scale philosophical points that I see in this thread - nature of good or evil, differences between culture, that sort of thing - than a perfunctory "Hey, look, rape and slavery, that makes us deep, right?".

 

I don't think anyone in this thread was asking for "afterschool special" messages, nor shoe-horning in topics that don't fit the story Obsidian is telling.

 

Straw man is full of straw.

[Wombat]

The other, more secure way is to be branded by the gameworld's racists as "xenos lover", and be subject to harrassment because of your beliefs. (Actually, there could be an otherwise entirely likeable but strongly racist NPC [hard to pull off that one, but I have trust in the writing team's skills], who refuses to help you if you openly support the ones he has prejudices against.)

A possible problem with such "begot" character is that, while he may be good at one-off occasion as a non-companion NPC, for a companion, he doesn't have a room for character development. If such character is going to be a companion, a possible example would be Boone in FONV. His attitude towards Caesar's Legion doesn't change from the start to the end, but, at least, eventually, the players is to know why he is so hostile against them. Considering his own deeds in Bitter Springs, it doesn't seem to be atrocities which he was against about the Legion, either. At least, I found the moderate feel of isolation even with a party companion was suitable for Fallout setting.

 

Oh, BTW, I'm neutral to Boone - it's not about personal likes or dislikes about NPCs but about a possible implementation.

[Irx]

What I'd like to see is how inability to make difficult choices can lead to terrible consequences.

 

ME with its paragon/renegade concept kind of promised it, but the devs were too afraid to punish players who want to be heroes and always be good and never fail, which made renegade just a jerk, since sacrificing something was a useless choice, when you could always excel at everything and save everyone.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Irx

[Troller]

Please include: rape, cannibalism, pedophily, masochism, sadism, serial killers, genocide(confirmed), torture, murder, prostitution, poverty, crime, politics

lets come up with a list

[Longknife]

Please include: rape, cannibalism, pedophily, masochism, sadism, serial killers, genocide(confirmed), torture, murder, prostitution, poverty, crime, politics

lets come up with a list

 

Necrophilia

[Gurkog]

ooo, another option for abortion...

 

A scenario that makes the decision harder incrementally, and the longer you put it off the worse it gets. Companion joins the party after being rescued from some form of abuse/rape situation. As we get to know them on our journeys we find that they were impregnated by the abuser/rapist. A ways into the pregnancy it is revealed that some kind of complication that threatens the child and mother. but you have the option to only save one.

 

The player is given the option to handle the situation in different ways during each step with varying consequences. Convincing the companion to abort the fetus early on could lead to resentment and leaving the party and a possible negative reputation hit due to her speaking out her disapproval of you. Finding an adoptive family for the unborn child could be an optional quest before the final critical event. Saving the companion could lead to similar results as an early abortion. Maybe there is a way to save both, but she may decide that giving up the child is unacceptable and leaves the party.

 

I don't know... I am just rambling now, but there could be all kinds of conflicting emotions for the player as that side story progresses. I have no idea what I would choose to do. There is no right or wrong... only choices and consequences. Meh, I doubt anyone would hit that topic in a game.

[Cantousent]

Please include: rape, cannibalism, pedophily, masochism, sadism, serial killers, genocide(confirmed), torture, murder, prostitution, poverty, crime, politics

lets come up with a list

 

Necrophilia

Most of those really aren't mature. Either they're prurient or puerile in nature.

 

Really, it doesn't matter if they have tons of 'mature' themes as long as they treat the themes they do have maturely. I think it's more important that they don't fall into the usual clap trap of 'that mean ol' business is pissing off the tree huggerz."

[Troller]

Please include: rape, cannibalism, pedophily, masochism, sadism, serial killers, genocide(confirmed), torture, murder, prostitution, poverty, crime, politics

lets come up with a list

 

Necrophilia

Abortion(thx Gurkon)

[Longknife]

ooo, another option for abortion...

 

WTF no. Can we get real here people? This is a midevil fantasy setting, abortion is nothing but a moral stance and a political hotpoint and I don't really see how it could POSSIBLY belong in such a setting. Either you DO think abortion is wrong or you don't, there's nothing to debate about it. And yknow what, I bet one day we have the technology to determine just how painful abortion is for a fetus or the likelihood that a parent that doesn't even want a child for various reasons (financial, emotional, personal) won't be able to provide a good childhood for said kid in question and then this issue will die out. I doubt it's ever happened that two people have debated the abortion issue and one of them ended up saying "you were right, I was wrong."

 

Controversial =/= mature theme. Mature theme means there's a lot of deep discussion and debate to be had about the topic at hand that could be educational, thought-provoking or change/challenge your very outlook on life. For example New Vegas had a lot to do with philosophy and human nature.

 

 

This thread seems to think controversial = mature theme, and no that's not the case. I fail to see how abortion would be an interesting theme for an RPG, nor can I see how rape, incest, torture or child abuse would be good themes either.

 

 

OP had good ideas, save maybe the last one (would like to hear his explanation of how the hell it's a mature theme before disagreeing), but this thread is starting to fill up with ideas that are downright horrible.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Longknife

[Cantousent]

I actually laughed out loud when I read "I doubt it's ever happened that two people have debated the abortion issue and one of them ended up saying 'you were right, I was wrong.'" I doubt it also, LK.

 

I think a gritty atmosphere can be introduced into some areas of the game for effect, but expecting them to be central to the main character's story would make for a pretty psychotic experience. I don't doubt a talented writer could deal with them properly, but any single one or two of them would have to be the point of the experience to make it worth while to treat them and I'm sure that Obsidz would like to sell the game.

 

Even taking into account the obvious sarcasm in the thread, which is funny, I think a lot of folks actually want to have a kitchen sink approach to 'mature' themes. Kind of scary, but I would be curious to see the devs pull it off. I would be angry as hell for Obsidz to try it on this project, though.

[Wombat]

Abortion in the Medieval Age? Actually, it's more likely to be deserting new born babies considering medical technologies at that time. That said, while some people seem to think their own views are universal but ethical views can be different depending on time and place. One of the fantasy setting's strengths is that, it enables us to explore what humanity through different settings/perspectives. I know a certain rules which consciously try to achieve this in the past but, generally speaking, D&D settings are just for escapism. Then again, Obsidian seem to be trying to make a difference in such tradition.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Wombat

[metiman]

I think some of you have to actually look up the word mature. It doesn't seem to mean what you think it means and frankly it doesn't apply particularly well to anything involving a computer game. I do remember even when I was young that kids liked to use the word far more than adults. Kids would say things like "Oh. That is sooo mature." in a sarcastic way. But just by saying things like that they are revealing themselves to be children because only children talked like that. Maturity is something that children idealize, but to adults, at least adults who aren't parents, it isn't a particularly useful word in daily life. And most adults don't spend a lot of time thinking about whether a thing/person is 'mature' or not.

 

Generally speaking children do not engage in things like rape or necrophilia or torture or genocide. Those are generally adult pursuits. As such they are certainly just as 'mature' as any other kind of activity that adults engage in. Sex is often considered to be an adult activity, but I think teenagers are way more obsessed with it than adults. So I dont really consider sex to be a particularly mature subject.

 

I think a better word for what some people seem to be talking about is seriousness or thoughtfulness. A story that takes itself seriously and/or ponders the nature of things in a serious way as PS:T did at least to some extent. It doesn't have to aim at any particular demographic. I was in my early thirties when PS:T came out and at that time I think I appreciated the dark themes of loss and death etc more than I would have as a teenager if only because by that time I had had experiences which sort of resonated with those themes. Even so I would have absolutely adored that game as a teenager as well just because I was always the kind of person that would have appreciated it. It doesn't matter whether you are 14 or 40. You just have to be the kind of person that likes to think about things seriously. A ponderer. If anything I was much more that way as a teenager than I am now. Most people are that way. They grow out of things like philosophy usually by their late 20s to early 30s.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

The other, more secure way is to be branded by the gameworld's racists as "xenos lover", and be subject to harrassment because of your beliefs. (Actually, there could be an otherwise entirely likeable but strongly racist NPC [hard to pull off that one, but I have trust in the writing team's skills], who refuses to help you if you openly support the ones he has prejudices against.)

A possible problem with such "begot" character is that, while he may be good at one-off occasion as a non-companion NPC, for a companion, he doesn't have a room for character development.

 

I imagined him/her as a somewhat distant, yet important and powerful mentor type of character.

[septembervirgin]

I've found that family portrayal is usually not done well in immature CRPG. If this game is to last, we might see several generations of the same family proliferate through a region. A character with skill to do so might be able to trace family histories (and so also might books about families be kept by these families). Also, an actual family usually doesn't treat their members with distaste -- disagreements don't occur in the way they're usually portrayed to occur. Adopted family members are usually treated to pity and gentleness, but adopted family is usually where "disobedience" and unspoken disagreement occurs, more so when the adopted family member is from adopted by invaders to that person's city or is enslaved through force. While we do not need to see families being all homey and domestic, it might be prudent to avoid the overwrought themes of orphans and runaways. If someone is adventuring away from home, it's usually because they see themselves as capable and cautious enough to survive, it's not because they were kidnapped by doppelgangers, to be rescued and raised by an enslaved blink-dog princess and an gray ooze psionicist.

 

One mature element I've noticed missing is pastoral moments. The young usually don't want for quiet moments in a computer game where they can move their action figures through a beautiful scene, unless that beautiful scene is en route a battle. There should be lovely places where one can just "live a sim life" or "play with dolls" so to speak. Such play finds dissonance when characters complain about being left standing around or wanting to fight something. Also, wandering monsters are ruinous to such moments. Soothing or gloomy music is useful for enhancing quiet moments, with an animated computer screen image which can also be useful as a portrait to glance at while doing house-hold chores.

 

 

A further mature theme might be the inclusion of surrender and retreat as viable options for both the NPC and the player. In chivalric romances (and other heroic myths) sometimes a combatant can sue for ransom, which is considered an honorable surrender, whereby a combatant or combatants permit their own capture to be ransomed by family, lord, church, or the city. This result of combat isn't outside history too. It would be seen as dishonorable (although sometimes occurred) that a combatant would claim they wished to surrender and then attack after capture; also false accusations can occur whereby a person is accused of doing such a thing, and punishments did exist if a vassal of a lord falsely surrendered to an enemy and then slew the enemy while living in captivity (and enjoying what hospitality could be afforded). It would be insipid to think that people always fight to the death or always seek an opponent's demise. More often, one seeks the enemy's surrender and PAYMENT (sometimes just in the arms and armor of the captive). If this is a part of the game, the Player Character house might have a small dungeon of its own -- and dungeons weren't always uncomfortable places. Alternately, captives could be herded to a friendly lord or knight (or priest) and sold to them for a third or quarter of the offered (or potential) ransom. People didn't run around killing everyone and stealing from homes, not in the more interesting legends even.

[Gurkog]

@septembervirgin

 

The mature part of a game is the consequences to the players choice. An immature view on sex, violence, power, wealth, etc... does not take into consideration the related risks and benefits beyond instant gratification. Consequences are usually shallow and immediate following a player's actions, but rarely incorporate long-term effects on the game world. Which is why in TES games you can steal everything and murder just about everyone without much effect beyond less clutter seen around town and fewer NPCs to stare at you and make repetitive statements as you walk by. They need to take the butterfly effect to a higher level than knee-jerk reactions to make the world feel more mature and compelling.

[vattghern]

games with mature themes: pst, motb, witcher

 

2 out of 3 were made by obsidian so i think they know what theyre doing, no worries there

[Stevenaap]

-Gender equality/politics

 

Honestly though, I care more about how well themes are explored than specifically which ones.

IMO lately mature themes have become some sort of buzzword, but instead of actually exploring said themes games just pay lipservice to them.

'Lookit there's the whores, slavery and child labor.. voila mature themes' add some lame trolley problems and you've got your 'moral choices'.

 

Say what you will about DA2, but it did actually explored some very 'mature' (whatever that means) themes with varying success.

The Qunari culture was very well explored with the Arishok, examining the PC's actions from a completely different moral frame of reference without resorting to awful good/evil tropes. Also the blood magic theme, even though it was rather ham-fisted and handled rather poorly toward the end, offered the PC's lots of moral dilemma's which were hard to into a classic black/white morality.

[Jiraboas]

Altough i am an a programmer i do love philosophy, politics and social themes.

 

I want to see more of it in a game like Project Eternity.

 

Thats on of the major points i loved in Planescape: Torment. The Quest for an old philosopher question, was really exiting. I want to see more of this!

 

And i want rassism in the game, but not this "elves dont like dwarves"-nonsense please

 

 

kind regard,

 

Jira

Edited September 18, 2012 by Jiraboas

[Longknife]

Abortion in the Medieval Age? Actually, it's more likely to be deserting new born babies considering medical technologies at that time. That said, while some people seem to think their own views are universal but ethical views can be different depending on time and place.

 

There's also a failure to see that abortion as a political hot topic isn't because the debate itself is deep and intriguing, but because it's a cheap shot for a bad politician. It gives them a way to say "Now my foreign policy may suck in every way imaginable when compared to my opponent and he probably is 100% superior to me in that regard, and no I don't have any good justification for my moronic plan, BUT MY OPPONENT THINKS THIS ABOUT ABORTION!!!"

 

Bam, just like that you've swayed a decent % of people to vote for you despite obvious shortcomings, simply because abortion is something enough people are passionate enough about that they're willing to base their entire (or at least a large portion of) vote on it. It's not because the topic is actually interesting or super relevant, it's because it's polarizing and it rakes in easy votes.

 

For a video game to do this? That's just asking for Project Eternity to polarize half their audience...

 

 

I've found that family portrayal is usually not done well in immature CRPG. If this game is to last, we might see several generations of the same family proliferate through a region. A character with skill to do so might be able to trace family histories (and so also might books about families be kept by these families). Also, an actual family usually doesn't treat their members with distaste -- disagreements don't occur in the way they're usually portrayed to occur. Adopted family members are usually treated to pity and gentleness, but adopted family is usually where "disobedience" and unspoken disagreement occurs, more so when the adopted family member is from adopted by invaders to that person's city or is enslaved through force. While we do not need to see families being all homey and domestic, it might be prudent to avoid the overwrought themes of orphans and runaways. If someone is adventuring away from home, it's usually because they see themselves as capable and cautious enough to survive, it's not because they were kidnapped by doppelgangers, to be rescued and raised by an enslaved blink-dog princess and an gray ooze psionicist.

 

One mature element I've noticed missing is pastoral moments. The young usually don't want for quiet moments in a computer game where they can move their action figures through a beautiful scene, unless that beautiful scene is en route a battle. There should be lovely places where one can just "live a sim life" or "play with dolls" so to speak. Such play finds dissonance when characters complain about being left standing around or wanting to fight something. Also, wandering monsters are ruinous to such moments. Soothing or gloomy music is useful for enhancing quiet moments, with an animated computer screen image which can also be useful as a portrait to glance at while doing house-hold chores.

 

 

A further mature theme might be the inclusion of surrender and retreat as viable options for both the NPC and the player. In chivalric romances (and other heroic myths) sometimes a combatant can sue for ransom, which is considered an honorable surrender, whereby a combatant or combatants permit their own capture to be ransomed by family, lord, church, or the city. This result of combat isn't outside history too. It would be seen as dishonorable (although sometimes occurred) that a combatant would claim they wished to surrender and then attack after capture; also false accusations can occur whereby a person is accused of doing such a thing, and punishments did exist if a vassal of a lord falsely surrendered to an enemy and then slew the enemy while living in captivity (and enjoying what hospitality could be afforded). It would be insipid to think that people always fight to the death or always seek an opponent's demise. More often, one seeks the enemy's surrender and PAYMENT (sometimes just in the arms and armor of the captive). If this is a part of the game, the Player Character house might have a small dungeon of its own -- and dungeons weren't always uncomfortable places. Alternately, captives could be herded to a friendly lord or knight (or priest) and sold to them for a third or quarter of the offered (or potential) ransom. People didn't run around killing everyone and stealing from homes, not in the more interesting legends even.

 

 

These are good ideas, imo. The second one depends heavily on delivery (could be horrible if done wrong) and of course they all depend heavily on delivery, but they provide interesting directions nonetheless. Admittedly though I think I'm coming up with drastically different thoughts from them though. I try to look at things and analyze their basic theme personally though, and while I think I may have different ideas, I think the underlying theme between your ideas and the ideas I get from reading your post, are more or less similar.

 

The first for example, to me, could be more of a general question of love. What does it mean to be a family, what does it mean to care for a family (responsibility of a family), where's the line between family and "family," (one that's blood-related but cares for you poorly, as a generic example) etc etc.

 

The third seems to be about challenging societies notions of right and wrong (using a cultural custom of honorable ransom to deceive and kill an enemy, thus securing an escape and safety for your party), OR justifying them, acknowledging the wisdom in them and respecting their "authority." (showing how a lack of such social norms can lead to chaos and violence, sorta like how Lonesome Road briefly touched on the importance and meaning of "kill no courier")

 

All of those seem interesting to me, regardless of which way you choose to look at them.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Longknife

[Starwars]

What kind of themes will have to depend on the setting itself which we know little about. I don't realy have a point-list of things I would to see in the game, the struggles and themes would have to come as a result of the setting.

But yeah, this is something that I think Obsidian will do well regardless. Josh seems to be really good at treating things maturely and without all the "look at us, we're spectacular because we're dealing with THIS theme". The way religion was used in Honest Hearts for example was fantastic, very understated and natural.

 

But yeah, I guess one thing I would like to see is approaching all characters and factions without any alignment meter in the back of their heads. Just flat out go for different viewpoints and try to rationalize them as best as they can.

[war:head]

Mature themes I'd like to see explored in this RPG:

• Sacrifice of a party member for the 'greater good' (being sacrificed or sacrificing themselves)
  
• Killing an innocent NPC to (buy time to) solve a situation and the emotional consequences within the party
  
• Party members' character development due to abduction and torture (PTSD) - edit: Forgot to mention possible tie-ins with romantic relationships
  
• Party members' character development due to general combat, war and what they experience (PTSD) - edit: Forgot to mention possible tie-ins with romantic relationships
  
• Mercy as an option in key moments vs. an opponent and the consequences (both good and bad)
  
• Torture as an option to achieve a goal/gain necessary information and the consequences within the party as well as the world (creating a tempting option for the player that takes strength of character to refuse)
  

Edited September 18, 2012 by war:head