Armour and weapon designs - a plea.

[MrWakka]

Better question, why have the tradition weapons like sword/dagger/etc and the traditional armors like chain/plate in the usual style at all, and not use weaponry and armor inspired by other sources that we hardly ever get to play with? Sure have weapons and armor, but why the usual ones at this point? We have tons of ancient cultures with all sorts of weapons and armor that may not seem practical against plate or chain armor, but . . . what if there were no plate or chain armor yet in a setting's history? What if armor was much different than we're used to in fantasy RPGs, and weapons for that matter.

 

Functional is one thing but . . . what is functional? It's easy to say, "That armor wouldn't actually protect" when looking at some types of armor, but, they were worn and their people's saw success in combat. You go back far enough and some people went to battle in just plain nothing, and the later more conservative cultures went in to battle in a loincloth to prevent what I like to call the Mr. Floppy effect.

 

I'm just curious if the big guy covered head to toe in plate is really necessary in a fantasy RPG when one of the most famous male fantasy characters, Conan, in some of his most iconic imagery, isn't wearing any such thing. I just got done reading the Black Stranger and it really made me think for a few seconds about just what an RPG character would wear into combat if the setting didn't have the usual Long Sword, Plate, Bow, Chain sort of gear.

 

I'm all for exotic swords and armor. Japanese, Chinese, and Middle Eastern swords come to mind.

 

And a barbarian might as well rush into combat with a couple of animal hides stitched together, foregoing protection in favor of mobility.

 

But Conan is a little much. As much as I've loved the movies when I was a kid, I don't think it prudent to go into a swordfight in your underwear.

 

I could go with a class or kit that is specially trained to fight very effectively with no armor, but would still suffer heavy penalties.

 

Well then you certainly should check out some older cultures like German tribes, Gauls, even Celts... Some of them were running into battle naked...

 

I am not saying that majority was doing that, but some were. The idea of an almost naked barbarian is not that far fetched as you may think.

 

There are accounts of celts going into battle naked around 4th-5th century bc , so as not to hamper their mobility, and to intimidate their opponents. Conan really was a rather conservative barbarian in this regard.

[Fertal]

Ok then prepare to fight Komodo Dragons since they're the only believable species of dragons available.

 

In short, if you want a game that has magic & giant creatures in it, weapons are armour need to match. Your warrior needs to be literally superhuman (or superdwarf) to be able to fight a, say, dragon and you can expect him or her to wield a large sword. I'm not saying I want anything tastlessly exaggerated. I'm saying we should be open to fantastic or even outlandish designs IF it supports the fantasy setting.

 

Very funny. But this one is even funnier: what were those two books where really non-superhuman heroes (flew exceptions apart) armed with relatively believable weapons fought against orcs, ogres, dragrons, giagant spiders and flamming demons? Help me, they are kinda famous. Oh, yes, I get it! The lord of the rings and The Hobbit!

I can't be sure, but I suspect their creator wouldn't agree with you. But maybe I'm wrong

 

In addition to that, none of that realistic armor and arms posted above are obtained through legendary quests or anything. They are simple forged stuff.

 

Say, in later parts of the game, you're going after an optional quest to obtain the shards of an ancient artifact from millenia-dead ghost kings. Would it be more believable if that super-legendary sword looked like this sword fresh out of the town blacksmith?

 

or, say, this sword from WoW?

.

 

Actually I would hate to find a senseless piece of metal like the sword in the second picture even in the market square. But probably it's just a matter of taste.

 

it's impossible for me un quote every single word typed by you!

 

In any case, this

can help us to understand the character design choosen...

it's a simple, functional and BELIVABLE design!

Edited September 25, 2012 by Fertal

[D3xter]

can help us to understand the character design choosen...

it's a simple, functional and BELIVABLE design!

Also somewhat boring and rather conservative, he could be right out of one of these series dealing with the history of Robin Hood or the crusades.

I'm hoping that they don't just replicate Middle-Age Europe because it's "believable", but think about design, orders etc. in THEIR fantasy world.

 

Ye' olde getup with chainmail, leather armor and shield might be good for fighting against other human or similar attackers but might even prove somewhat useless against all sorts of monsters with claws, teeth and sizes smaller or larger than that of a normal human.

[TrashMan]

There are accounts of celts going into battle naked around 4th-5th century bc , so as not to hamper their mobility, and to intimidate their opponents. Conan really was a rather conservative barbarian in this regard.

 

 

While this is true, you also have to remember that they got stomped.

[SirPetrakus]

I was wondering. Besides regular armor, can we get a regular attire? Commoner clothes or a gentleman's attire? I always liked having my stylish gentleman in F:NV, going around and playing fisticuffs with deathclaws. The fights didn't always end in his favor, but he sure looked suave for a corpse.

[Baudolino05]

can help us to understand the character design choosen...

it's a simple, functional and BELIVABLE design!

Also somewhat boring and rather conservative, he could be right out of one of these series dealing with the history of Robin Hood or the crusades.

I'm hoping that they don't just replicate Middle-Age Europe because it's "believable", but think about design, orders etc. in THEIR fantasy world.

 

They haven't replicated any real middle-ages battle suit. It's just a personal reinterpretation.

 

Ye' olde getup with chainmail, leather armor and shield might be good for fighting against other human or similar attackers but might even prove somewhat useless against all sorts of monsters with claws, teeth and sizes smaller or larger than that of a normal human.

 

Are you sure about that? Knighs used to hunt boars and bears armed with crossbows and splits...Actually, I think I can find a real late middle-ages weapon theoretical suited for fighting any kind of fantasy monster (incorporeal things apart). Can you say the same for oversized swords and axes?

[D3xter]

Are you sure about that? Knighs used to hunt boars and bears armed with crossbows and splits...Actually, I think I can find a real late middle-ages weapon theoretical suited for fighting any kind of fantasy monster (incorporeal things apart). Can you say the same for oversized swords and axes?

Who said anything about oversized swords and axes?

 

Even within our world there are still a multitude of cultures and approaches, for instance there are tribes that take drugs in the belief that it gives them heightened senses and speed, they're going out hunting with 2m long blastpipes using frog poison in nothing but a **** sheath. There are people in mongolia hunting with the help of eagles mounted on donkeys and others in iceland and other parts of the world harpooning big whales from boats and bringing them to land, training their whole lives for that task alone.

 

You practically have every possibility in the world to follow your imagination and create an all new fantasy world, and one of the very first things you come up with is a rather English-looking fellow, whose primary and only reason for standing out is that he is holding a whip in his shield hand and people are cheering because it's "realistic" or something. It's just somewhat disappointing is all. Planescape went the right way there with a rather creative selection of races, cults and different beings from different planes. xD

Edited September 25, 2012 by D3xter

[The Sharmat]

While this is true, you also have to remember that they got stomped.

Well the naked ones were berserk religious fanatics. That wasn't exactly standard. Gallic metal working was extremely advanced and their nobles were often armored like tanks compared to their Roman opponents. It was a very long and nasty series of conflicts ultimately won by Roman organization and efficiency more than raw technological superiority or individual martial prowess.

[Umberlin]

Better question, why have the tradition weapons like sword/dagger/etc and the traditional armors like chain/plate in the usual style at all, and not use weaponry and armor inspired by other sources that we hardly ever get to play with? Sure have weapons and armor, but why the usual ones at this point? We have tons of ancient cultures with all sorts of weapons and armor that may not seem practical against plate or chain armor, but . . . what if there were no plate or chain armor yet in a setting's history? What if armor was much different than we're used to in fantasy RPGs, and weapons for that matter.

 

Functional is one thing but . . . what is functional? It's easy to say, "That armor wouldn't actually protect" when looking at some types of armor, but, they were worn and their people's saw success in combat. You go back far enough and some people went to battle in just plain nothing, and the later more conservative cultures went in to battle in a loincloth to prevent what I like to call the Mr. Floppy effect.

 

I'm just curious if the big guy covered head to toe in plate is really necessary in a fantasy RPG when one of the most famous male fantasy characters, Conan, in some of his most iconic imagery, isn't wearing any such thing. I just got done reading the Black Stranger and it really made me think for a few seconds about just what an RPG character would wear into combat if the setting didn't have the usual Long Sword, Plate, Bow, Chain sort of gear.

 

I'm all for exotic swords and armor. Japanese, Chinese, and Middle Eastern swords come to mind.

 

And a barbarian might as well rush into combat with a couple of animal hides stitched together, foregoing protection in favor of mobility.

 

But Conan is a little much. As much as I've loved the movies when I was a kid, I don't think it prudent to go into a swordfight in your underwear.

 

I could go with a class or kit that is specially trained to fight very effectively with no armor, but would still suffer heavy penalties.

 

Well then you certainly should check out some older cultures like German tribes, Gauls, even Celts... Some of them were running into battle naked...

 

I am not saying that majority was doing that, but some were. The idea of an almost naked barbarian is not that far fetched as you may think.

 

There are accounts of celts going into battle naked around 4th-5th century bc , so as not to hamper their mobility, and to intimidate their opponents. Conan really was a rather conservative barbarian in this regard.

 

Heh.

 

People have done some funny things throughout history. I guess, in the end, what I was trying to get across though wasn't that we should be running into battle naked, just that the functionality of armor . . . when looking back at some of the armor various older to ancient cultures came up with . . . might have been right 'for them' but paired against a more advanced, later, culture may not have been very practical or functional for fighting them. What I mean is function is a matter of context, what you're up against, so to speak.

 

Some older, and especially ancient, cultures did some great things I'd love to see as a source of inspiration for a game. It'd just be a shame to dismiss some of it when due to the matter of functionality against later forms of armor and weaponry. There's just a lot of neat stuff here, and what we've seen of the map, if it's accurate, could lend itself to 'some' variety . . . however . . . when I wrote that we didn't have:

 

it's impossible for me un quote every single word typed by you!

 

In any case, this

can help us to understand the character design choosen...

it's a simple, functional and BELIVABLE design!

 

Which spells out a more specific idea of what to expect and probably hints at the forms of cultural and historical inspiration they've chosen to pull from making a lot of what I said a waste in the here and now. Ah well.

 

I do notice something neat though, note the whip. It's in the same hand as the shield. Not many games implement flexible weapon types like the whip. I'm hoping that's a hint at a flexible weapon class in the game. The last RPGs I remember playing that had whips, and other flexible weapons, in them were Dark Age of Camelot and . . . I believe one of the expansions to NWN implemented a whip. HotU if I remember right.

 

That's a neat thing, just because of how rarely we get to play with flexible weapon types such as whips, chains and their ilk.

 

While this is true, you also have to remember that they got stomped.

Well the naked ones were berserk religious fanatics. That wasn't exactly standard. Gallic metal working was extremely advanced and their nobles were often armored like tanks compared to their Roman opponents. It was a very long and nasty series of conflicts ultimately won by Roman organization and efficiency more than raw technological superiority or individual martial prowess.

 

It's also of note that . . . while they may have done it in that time, the fact that they were doing it then likely hinted to a cultural/religious heritage that went back further. Meaning within the pre-Roman conflicts, especially a lot of the unrecorded, or I should say badly recorded . . . (or just plain destroyed) bleh . . . era . . . we have no idea what sort of success rate they may have had. Mind you pre-Roman doesn't just me Rome specifically, but advanced military presences in general. That sort of combat wouldn't have just been a religious thing, but something spawning from a time when I'd bet you most of the fights were between rival clans on a much smaller scale, and of similar levels of progression (lacking the organization and efficiency and all that of the Romans for one thing, amongst others, being that it would have been a far earlier period than the issues with Rome).

Edited September 25, 2012 by Umberlin

[TrashMan]

Even within our world there are still a multitude of cultures and approaches, for instance there are tribes that take drugs in the belief that it gives them heightened senses and speed, they're going out hunting with 2m long blastpipes using frog poison in nothing but a **** sheath. There are people in mongolia hunting with the help of eagles mounted on donkeys and others in iceland and other parts of the world harpooning big whales from boats and bringing them to land, training their whole lives for that task alone.

 

 

Dude, those people do that because they must.

They don't wear armor because they can't afford it (in the case of a tribal with a balstpipe) or because it's just not practical for fishing (swiming in armor?)

 

Firthermore, hunting smaller animals is not the same as martial combat agaisnt well trained human opponent.

And that tribal - if he gets caught by a larger predator he is in big trouble.

 

It's silly to ask "why doesn't X wear full plate if it's so good?"

Those things dont' roll off an assemly line.

 

You might as well ask why doesn't every person in the world own a 100' plasma TV.

 

 

 

It's just somewhat disappointing is all. Planescape went the right way there with a rather creative selection of races, cults and different beings from different planes. xD

 

Subjective.

[-TK-]

I just can't understand why people think, gaudy, overblown 'adventurer with a mid-life crisis' armour even looks better than the simple, more believable alternative.

I know it's personal taste at the end of the day, but I don't know, it just looks... vulgar to me, vulgar and lame.

 

Also, can I just add that Conan usually wore armour: be it a breastplate, hauberk or whatever; he almost always had armour on in the stories especially in battle despite the popular image of him; however Celts did tend to fight naked, but given that the definition of 'barbarian' literally meant 'someone who is not part of the Roman Empire' and also included peoples like the Goths and the Lombards who did wear armour.

[obyknven]

I just can't understand why people think, gaudy, overblown 'adventurer with a mid-life crisis' armour even looks better than the simple, more believable alternative.

more believable alternative.

[obyknven]

it's impossible for me un quote every single word typed by you!

 

In any case, this

can help us to understand the character design choosen...

it's a simple, functional and BELIVABLE design!

Looks like this.

Don't want Nerds in my game.

[Thulean]

I just can't understand why people think, gaudy, overblown 'adventurer with a mid-life crisis' armour even looks better than the simple, more believable alternative.

I know it's personal taste at the end of the day, but I don't know, it just looks... vulgar to me, vulgar and lame.

 

Also, can I just add that Conan usually wore armour: be it a breastplate, hauberk or whatever; he almost always had armour on in the stories especially in battle despite the popular image of him; however Celts did tend to fight naked, but given that the definition of 'barbarian' literally meant 'someone who is not part of the Roman Empire' and also included peoples like the Goths and the Lombards who did wear armour.

 

 

Yeah, if you read Robert E Howards stories Conan always wore armor and carried sensible weapons when available. A lot of people seem to have the comic book, movie or Frazetta images of him in mind though when they think he ran around mostly naked.

[Umberlin]

I just can't understand why people think, gaudy, overblown 'adventurer with a mid-life crisis' armour even looks better than the simple, more believable alternative.

I know it's personal taste at the end of the day, but I don't know, it just looks... vulgar to me, vulgar and lame.

 

Also, can I just add that Conan usually wore armour: be it a breastplate, hauberk or whatever; he almost always had armour on in the stories especially in battle despite the popular image of him; however Celts did tend to fight naked, but given that the definition of 'barbarian' literally meant 'someone who is not part of the Roman Empire' and also included peoples like the Goths and the Lombards who did wear armour.

 

I think you need to clarify what you think is simple or believable because some of the actual armor people in history, especially the truly ancient cultures, have worn, outside of the usual medieval, roman and germanic bents fantasy games tend to pull from, could be exceedingly odd by those standards. Even considered overblown, so far as to say non-functional . . . but they were.

 

As for the Celts and going naked, they actually did have armor, those that went naked were not the standard at least during the conflicts with Rome. However, much older cultures or just different cultures? Yeah. Naked or in little more than loincloths (loincloths being relative, not necessarily exactly that for every culture in question). Maybe some clay beads, decorations like paint or mud and some neatly aranged leather cords and bones if they were lucky. And you know what? For those areas, those times and those cultures? With the weapons they were using? It worked. We may think, 'not practical and not believable and not functional' but . . . you know what? We aren't them.

 

As for Conan, there were times he wore armor. There were also times he wore very little in battle, and one chapter in particular I remember where he fought completely nude. Then again, let's consider that nudity for anyone in some of those books was pretty common. And no, that wasn't the comics. Nudity wasn't rare in those books, and while I can only remember one instance of Conan fighting nude, the lightly clad look was not a rarity in battle.

 

Heck The Black Stranger opens with him naked, except for, and I quote from the book as I type: "except for a rag twisted about his loins, and his limbs were criss-crossed with scratches from briars, and caked with dried mud." He fights in this state. More than one opponent, they being in, and I quote again, "they wore beaded buckskin loicloths, and an eagle's feather was thrust into each black mane. They were painted in hideous designs, and heavily armed."

 

Again he fights in that state, and fights with people in such garb. That's just one example but lightly armored fights were not a rarity in those books. And while I can only remember one instance of a nude fight, trust me, people wore nothing often enough in Howard's books that I sincerely doubt the one that I can remember was the only instance.

 

As I said earlier I'm not trying to push nude fights by bringing this up, rather an idea of practicality and functionality that can be hard to grasp. I used the example of a fictional character but people in reality, in history, have used and worn weapons and armor strange enough that their idea of practical and functional for the time just . . . may seem anything but to us. I'm not pushing big huge swords either. I'm just saying . . . 'careful' when insisting on simple, more believable alternatives. Simple happens, but so do other things, and that's in reality, and trust me, some of the weird barely functional stuff in fantasy? It doesn't hold a flame to some of the weirder stuff people have come up with in reality over the thousands and thousands of years of goofy Humans and their crazy ideas.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Umberlin

[Baudolino05]

Are you sure about that? Knighs used to hunt boars and bears armed with crossbows and splits...Actually, I think I can find a real late middle-ages weapon theoretical suited for fighting any kind of fantasy monster (incorporeal things apart). Can you say the same for oversized swords and axes?

Who said anything about oversized swords and axes?

 

Even within our world there are still a multitude of cultures and approaches, for instance there are tribes that take drugs in the belief that it gives them heightened senses and speed, they're going out hunting with 2m long blastpipes using frog poison in nothing but a **** sheath. There are people in mongolia hunting with the help of eagles mounted on donkeys and others in iceland and other parts of the world harpooning big whales from boats and bringing them to land, training their whole lives for that task alone.

 

You practically have every possibility in the world to follow your imagination and create an all new fantasy world, and one of the very first things you come up with is a rather English-looking fellow, whose primary and only reason for standing out is that he is holding a whip in his shield hand and people are cheering because it's "realistic" or something. It's just somewhat disappointing is all. Planescape went the right way there with a rather creative selection of races, cults and different beings from different planes. xD

 

1) I played Planescape for years, first as a player and then as a Dungeon Master. I love it. It's still my favorite fantasy setting, but the only reason I consider it a consistent setting it's because incoherence is part of its very nature (due to the plane-walking, of course). Without this explanation, all its races, technologies, philosophies and gods put together would be a mess....

2) Surely there are several alternative setting to the classic european late-middle ages period and I have nothing against a more "exotic" influence. I only demand internal consistency. I don't want Swiss full plated mercenary living nearby naked Celts. People influence each others. Mongols used to be the best mounted archers on Earth, but they started to wield muskets as composite bows became obsolete. I also demand believable weapons: I hate useless 10 kilos pieces of metal.

3) Believable late middle-age armors (or weapons) as not so common in fantasy cRPGs. Actually they are pretty rare, due to the tendency to exaggerate everything.

4) Honestly I can't understand why exotic weapons (or tactics) should be more efficient against monsters than pikes or poleaxes...As long as you provide readers with a good explanation, everything can work...

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05

[-TK-]

I think you need to clarify what you think is simple or believable because some of the actual armor people in history, especially the truly ancient cultures, have worn, outside of the usual medieval, roman and germanic bents fantasy games tend to pull from, could be exceedingly odd by those standards. Even considered overblown, so far as to say non-functional . . . but they were.

 

As for the Celts and going naked, they actually did have armor, those that went naked were not the standard at least during the conflicts with Rome. However, much older cultures or just different cultures? Yeah. Naked or in little more than loincloths (loincloths being relative, not necessarily exactly that for every culture in question). Maybe some clay beads, decorations like paint or mud and some neatly aranged leather cords and bones if they were lucky. And you know what? For those areas, those times and those cultures? With the weapons they were using? It worked. We may think, 'not practical and not believable and not functional' but . . . you know what? We aren't them.

 

As for Conan, there were times he wore armor. There were also times he wore very little in battle, and one chapter in particular I remember where he fought completely nude. Then again, let's consider that nudity for anyone in some of those books was pretty common.

 

I don't believe for a second that you don't know what I'm talking about when I say 'believable' but fine, let me clarify:

 

You aren't going to find many bizarre or unconventional armour types in the shield wall, so by 'believable' I mean 'commonplace' to a certain extent but more than that I mean sensible, armours were made with the materials people had available to get as much protection as they could, those that were effective or cheap to produce were widely adopted, the example of that strange chariot armour that somebody posted before could not have been widely adopted for one reason or another, whether that be because of the expense or because of its apparent impracticality I do not know.

 

'Truly ancient cultures' sometimes had strange conventions because those developments were relatively early and in a medieval fantasy game, that is a largely moot point.

Although I should point out the ideas that were effective and cheap to produce were still adopted, helms and shields, for example, were being used as far back as 2900BC by the Sumerians, and they had the first ever professional Army.

 

Celts did have armour, yes, they more often than not wore thick girdles, helms and shields not to mention their heavy jewelery, that might in some cases have acted as extra protection, but in the early days very few of them wore pants into battle and their bravest warriors often went skyclad.

 

My point with Conan is that in the Robert E. Howard stories Conan was usually very well attired, if he had a choice in the matter, and usually wore armour. If Conan fought in anything but full armour its because he had no other alternative at the time.

 

Conan often ripped enemies limb from limb with his bare hands, but he didn't if he had a sword handy, do you get what I'm saying?

[Umberlin]

'Truly ancient cultures' sometimes had strange conventions because those developments were relatively early and in a medieval fantasy game, that is a largely moot point.

 

Keep in mind you're following a thread of conversation in this, er, thread, that spreads from before we knew the exact type of setting. Nevermind that medieval fantasy has been done to death, and that the original points I made back in the first pages were about inspiration they could pull from sources besives the typical medieval, roman and other oft used sources. Not to say there's anything wrong with them, it'd just be nice to see more variety, especially from less tapped sources. The Sumeriams are great example but any of the ancient South American, Middle Eastern and other cultures have lots of neat stuff to pull from.

 

Sure, it's a moot point now, but oh well, life goes on.

 

Although I should point out the ideas that were effective and cheap to produce were still adopted, helms and shields, for example, were being used as far back as 2900BC by the Sumerians, and they had the first ever professional Army.

 

And Chariots, apparently being the first inventors of them, barring any future discoveries that prove otherwise. It's quite interesting, actually, because they had some interesting ideas toward early armor. There's question on what exactly some of it was made from because a lot of it is based on observation from carvings, rather than actual samples of the armor. The most striking thing was this though, being one of the few examples of 'more than just a carving':

 

"The Sumerians invented a long leather cloak complete with metal studs interwoven to protect the wearer. It would be interesting to see if the cloak would afford decent protection but at least it would make quite the fashion statement. Another interesting piece of Sumerian armor was discovered in the tomb of a nobleman. It was a helmet made of electrum, an alloy of silver and gold, and was modeled with the ears, headband and even the hairs fashioned out of the metal. Electrum isn't a very tough metal so most likely the helmet was used for ceremonial purposes."

 

Like I said. Some of the ancient cultures on this planet had some pretty weird ideas of what to wear. I've seen Sumerian carvings of warriors in chariots wearing such cloaks.

 

My point with Conan is that in the Robert E. Howard stories Conan was usually very well attired, if he had a choice in the matter, and usually wore armour. If Conan fought in anything but full armour its because he had no other alternative at the time.

 

Conan often ripped enemies limb from limb with his bare hands, but he didn't if he had a sword handy, do you get what I'm saying?

 

My point, again, isn't what he fought in, because I'm not pushing that our characters fight naked, or even in loincloths, I'll just quote the whole thing and let you pick out the relevant bits. No sense in typing them again, might as well copy and paste:

 

As for Conan, there were times he wore armor. There were also times he wore very little in battle, and one chapter in particular I remember where he fought completely nude. Then again, let's consider that nudity for anyone in some of those books was pretty common. And no, that wasn't the comics. Nudity wasn't rare in those books, and while I can only remember one instance of Conan fighting nude, the lightly clad look was not a rarity in battle.

 

Heck The Black Stranger opens with him naked, except for, and I quote from the book as I type: "except for a rag twisted about his loins, and his limbs were criss-crossed with scratches from briars, and caked with dried mud." He fights in this state. More than one opponent, they being in, and I quote again, "they wore beaded buckskin loincloths, and an eagle's feather was thrust into each black mane. They were painted in hideous designs, and heavily armed."

 

Again he fights in that state, and fights with people in such garb. That's just one example but lightly armored fights were not a rarity in those books. And while I can only remember one instance of a nude fight, trust me, people wore nothing often enough in Howard's books that I sincerely doubt the one that I can remember was the only instance.

 

As I said earlier I'm not trying to push nude fights by bringing this up, rather an idea of practicality and functionality that can be hard to grasp. I used the example of a fictional character but people in reality, in history, have used and worn weapons and armor strange enough that their idea of practical and functional for the time just . . . may seem anything but to us. I'm not pushing big huge swords either. I'm just saying . . . 'careful' when insisting on simple, more believable alternatives. Simple happens, but so do other things, and that's in reality, and trust me, some of the weird barely functional stuff in fantasy? It doesn't hold a flame to some of the weirder stuff people have come up with in reality over the thousands and thousands of years of goofy Humans and their crazy ideas.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Umberlin

[Baudolino05]

it's impossible for me un quote every single word typed by you!

 

In any case, this

can help us to understand the character design choosen...

it's a simple, functional and BELIVABLE design!

Looks like this.

Don't want Nerds in my game.

According google, nerds usually prefer this style .

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05

[-TK-]

'Truly ancient cultures' sometimes had strange conventions because those developments were relatively early and in a medieval fantasy game, that is a largely moot point.

 

Keep in mind you're following a thread of conversation in this, er, thread, that spreads from before we knew the exact type of setting. Nevermind that medieval fantasy has been done to death, and that the original points I made back in the first pages were about inspiration they could pull from sources besives the typical medieval, roman and other oft used sources. Not to say there's anything wrong with them, it'd just be nice to see more variety, especially from less tapped sources. The Sumeriams are great example but any of the ancient South American, Middle Eastern and other cultures have lots of neat stuff to pull from.

 

Sure, it's a moot point now, but oh well, life goes on.

 

Although I should point out the ideas that were effective and cheap to produce were still adopted, helms and shields, for example, were being used as far back as 2900BC by the Sumerians, and they had the first ever professional Army.

 

And Chariots, apparently being the first inventors of them, barring any future discoveries that prove otherwise. It's quite interesting, actually, because they had some interesting ideas toward early armor. There's question on what exactly some of it was made from because a lot of it is based on observation from carvings, rather than actual samples of the armor. The most striking thing was this though, being one of the few examples of 'more than just a carving':

 

"The Sumerians invented a long leather cloak complete with metal studs interwoven to protect the wearer. It would be interesting to see if the cloak would afford decent protection but at least it would make quite the fashion statement. Another interesting piece of Sumerian armor was discovered in the tomb of a nobleman. It was a helmet made of electrum, an alloy of silver and gold, and was modeled with the ears, headband and even the hairs fashioned out of the metal. Electrum isn't a very tough metal so most likely the helmet was used for ceremonial purposes."

 

Like I said. Some of the ancient cultures on this planet had some pretty weird ideas of what to wear. I've seen Sumerian carvings of warriors in chariots wearing such cloaks.

 

My point with Conan is that in the Robert E. Howard stories Conan was usually very well attired, if he had a choice in the matter, and usually wore armour. If Conan fought in anything but full armour its because he had no other alternative at the time.

 

Conan often ripped enemies limb from limb with his bare hands, but he didn't if he had a sword handy, do you get what I'm saying?

 

My point, again, isn't what he fought in, because I'm not pushing that our characters fight naked, or even in loincloths, I'll just quote the whole thing and let you pick out the relevant bits. No sense in typing them again, might as well copy and paste:

 

As for Conan, there were times he wore armor. There were also times he wore very little in battle, and one chapter in particular I remember where he fought completely nude. Then again, let's consider that nudity for anyone in some of those books was pretty common. And no, that wasn't the comics. Nudity wasn't rare in those books, and while I can only remember one instance of Conan fighting nude, the lightly clad look was not a rarity in battle.

 

Heck The Black Stranger opens with him naked, except for, and I quote from the book as I type: "except for a rag twisted about his loins, and his limbs were criss-crossed with scratches from briars, and caked with dried mud." He fights in this state. More than one opponent, they being in, and I quote again, "they wore beaded buckskin loincloths, and an eagle's feather was thrust into each black mane. They were painted in hideous designs, and heavily armed."

 

Again he fights in that state, and fights with people in such garb. That's just one example but lightly armored fights were not a rarity in those books. And while I can only remember one instance of a nude fight, trust me, people wore nothing often enough in Howard's books that I sincerely doubt the one that I can remember was the only instance.

 

As I said earlier I'm not trying to push nude fights by bringing this up, rather an idea of practicality and functionality that can be hard to grasp. I used the example of a fictional character but people in reality, in history, have used and worn weapons and armor strange enough that their idea of practical and functional for the time just . . . may seem anything but to us. I'm not pushing big huge swords either. I'm just saying . . . 'careful' when insisting on simple, more believable alternatives. Simple happens, but so do other things, and that's in reality, and trust me, some of the weird barely functional stuff in fantasy? It doesn't hold a flame to some of the weirder stuff people have come up with in reality over the thousands and thousands of years of goofy Humans and their crazy ideas.

 

I guess that was pedantry on both of our parts.

 

But yeah, the Sumerians were a truly fascinating culture!

 

And I agree wholeheartedly with drawing inspiration from more varied cultures, I suppose that so long as it is consistent with the world that its in and neighbouring cultures aren't completely alien from one another nor completely identical then it should be believable within its own context.

 

But I'm still opposed to **** armour as much as I'm opposed to **** blades.

 

more believable alternative.

 

I'd rather see that in the game, than this:

 

 

or this:

 

 

or this:

 

Edited September 25, 2012 by -TK-

[TrashMan]

As I said earlier I'm not trying to push nude fights by bringing this up, rather an idea of practicality and functionality that can be hard to grasp. I used the example of a fictional character but people in reality, in history, have used and worn weapons and armor strange enough that their idea of practical and functional for the time just . . . may seem anything but to us. I'm not pushing big huge swords either. I'm just saying . . . 'careful' when insisting on simple, more believable alternatives. Simple happens, but so do other things, and that's in reality, and trust me, some of the weird barely functional stuff in fantasy? It doesn't hold a flame to some of the weirder stuff people have come up with in reality over the thousands and thousands of years of goofy Humans and their crazy ideas.

 

 

There were crazy people trought all ages. And crazy inventors. And failed experiments.

We can find peices of experimental weaponry and armor - that doesn't change the fact that it failed and never saw wide use. It was a faliure. Like many things even in modern times, with far more scientific approach to weapon design.

 

Also, gladiatorial fights where the equipment of either side is pre-determined by some master and duels that had strict rules cannot compare to life-or-death comabt where there are no rules.

 

It is a undeniable historical fight that whenever people had acess to better armor or better weapons - they took it.

[Galdegir]

I love the idea of authentic weapons and armor. No giant swords, katanas etc. but swords, axes, maces, spears, flails that are historcal or look functional. There are so many weapons from ancient and medieval times that could be used. I would love to see something like this:

 

or this:

 

Edited September 25, 2012 by Galdegir

[obyknven]

I'd rather see that in the game, than this:

 

 

 

 

 

This is real bear hunting armor. Where your gods now?

[-TK-]

I'd rather see that in the game, than this:

 

 

 

 

 

This is real bear hunting armor. Where your gods now?

 

Well that's great if you're hunting bears, but you aren't likely to see it in a shield wall are you?

And to be honest it looks more like the misguided idea of one particular hunter, rather than something that was widely adopted.

[Baudolino05]

I'd rather see that in the game, than this:

 

 

 

 

 

This is real bear hunting armor. Where your gods now?

 

And this one is a real deep sea diver suit. I don't think both their creators tried to make battle armors .

PS: you samples make this topic really funny. Keep it up!

Edited September 25, 2012 by Baudolino05