[Merged] DRM Discussion Thread

[Tale]

Not really. Any new game released on Steam require the Steam client to run. Bethesda Softworks made a mistake about that with Skyrim, only making the SkyrimLauncher.exe require the Steam client and not Skyrim.exe itself, but it was quickly fixed with a patch.

 

Also, the Recettear FAQ state the following.

HEY! What about the fact that you're on Steam? I HAVE to have the game run via Steam if I purchase it that way!

This is, we're afraid, the price of doing business on Steam. The Steam wrapper must work with the game in order for Valve to publish a game on Steam. We were willing to bend on this, however, because both of our other distribution partners (Impulse and GamersGate) offer purchases that feature absolutely no DRM at all. Therefore, if the Steam wrapper offends you to the quick for some reason, you still have multiple, completely DRM-free options available!

This contradicts with what Paradox used to say. I'll see if I can dredge it up.

 

Can't find the specific quote, but I did just verify that I can run some games without Steam active. Just did it with Bastion.

[licketysplit]

I like my games being gathered in one cosy place. And that one cosy place is called Steam.

 

A cozy DRM laden place. I won't buy the game if it has DRM. Period. And there's no reason a niche game like this has to have it. This isn't Call of Duty or Mass Effect 3. It's not a mainstream game and it won't garner the same attention nor the piracy. It'd be ludicrous to have this be a Steam exclusive. They should look into GOG which is a far better digital distributor than Steam.

Edited September 16, 2012 by licketysplit

[Skie Nightfall]

Simple. Will pledge more if there's no DRM.

Can't see why a project like this would need it.

[RogueBurger]

Well, with a linux version a possibility, Steam can't be the only source of the game. I would indeed love to see a DRM free version, and even more so I'd love to see you partner with GOG.com to release it there. They deserve a big game like this.

[evdk]

Well, with a linux version a possibility, Steam can't be the only source of the game. I would indeed love to see a DRM free version, and even more so I'd love to see you partner with GOG.com to release it there. They deserve a big game like this.

By the time this comes out Gabe might make good on his threat to release a Steam client for linux.

[Kloreep]

I'd love to see this game hit both GOG (DRM-FREE!)

 

So, keep on voting on GOG for this:

http://www.gog.com/e...roject_eternity

 

It's a bit too early to be doing that, I don't see any point of requesting them to add a game which is at least a year and a half away.

 

I don't know why it would be. GOG is doing recent and even new releases these days.

 

Even if it is somehow too early, it's not too early to start getting Eternity votes on the Wishlist for whatever day isn't too early.

 

the DRM is non intrusive. Games can be played offline after a one time online activation.

 

If only this were so. The off-line mode has only ever worked for me when I don't need it to, i.e. when my internet connection is intact. Trying to turn it on whenever I actually need it because my internet connection has gone down, it refuses. (So, yes, I could run in off-line mode all the time... in which case I lose all the networking features that provide a carrot to go with the stick. Good job, Valve.)

 

I do like Steam, it's the best I've tried as DRM clients go. It certainly has its uses and I've bought a lot of games on it. But due to the downsides, I often view it as more of a bargain bin, unless someone forces me to it as a first choice by using Steamworks.

 

As others have said: if you like Steam, that's great. Obsidian would be fools to not put it on there, and I'd happily lend my vote to Eternity on Steam Greenlight if it needed it. I personally would prefer to be able to get it under a lighter DRM system (preferably none at all), and from this thread it seems clear I'm not alone.

 

The only people *not* bothered by DRM are people using cracked versions of games.

 

You win the Nutshell award, good sir/madam.

 

Its funny people hate on Steam and yet they want GOG despite the fact that Obsidian can easily provide the game for free. If you want GOG just because you want all your games at the same place, then hey, that's the reason why Steam users what the game on Steam too.

 

"DRM free" is certainly more important than "on GOG." (Though one of the things I love about GOG is that the latter ensures the former. Any other game shop makes me do research just to make a purchase.) If the latter is not doable, I'd still be pleased with just the former. But I do prefer GOG, just so I have a service where I know I'll be able to go redownload if my local copy fails - as opposed to a developer's server subject to the fortunes of that particular company. It's like Steam without the disadvantages.

 

And yes, you are correct, it is just like the reason Steam users want the game on Steam. So I'm glad you understand us GOG fans.

[Kaldurenik]

DRM free is the way to go. Or allow people to have a option what to pick. Anyway i would rather not have any DRM as there is nothing (unless you crack it) that the company or whatever wont stop support / close down and considering they dont have to remove the DRM from the copies yeah.

[licketysplit]

The last place I need to be buying the game from is a site that requires both DRM and a software client. If it's on GOG I use my browser to download, I click on the icon, I play the game. Nothing else is involved. Steam is overrated. I don't want their client or their DRM.

 

And for what it's worth, best of luck on the game Obsidian.

Edited September 16, 2012 by licketysplit

[evdk]

If by some stupid twist of fate the game will only use Steam as a distribution platform it will simple have to be "modded" out of it. Yo ho ho.

[Zoraptor]

Why do you hate me, multiquote?

 

This contradicts with what Paradox used to say. I'll see if I can dredge it up.

It's technically true for Paradox though I'm not sure how anyone could sensibly describe it as not being drm when CK2 has had 10 (?) patches and 12 (?) dlcs, all of which only work through steam- unless you're an enlightened and informed individual and purchased the gamersgate version, of course. Given how frequently they talked about hating drm and not having a preferred estore Paradox basically have to insist that steam isn't drm though.

 

Its funny people hate on Steam and yet they want GOG despite the fact that Obsidian can easily provide the game for free. If you want GOG just because you want all your games at the same place, then hey, that's the reason why Steam users what the game on Steam too.

While I'd tend to agree that purchasing direct from the developer is best as an option, all distribution systems do have costs, Obsidian cannot simply provide the game themselves without overheads- you either need a system to manage purchases or accounts yourself (potentially expensive to establish and maintain) or use a premade system like BMT Micro, which will take their own cut. Using steam for "pre purchases" like kickstarter is understandable since part of the Embrace Extend Extinguish philosophy Gabe learned at MS is the benefit of loss leading, hence free steamworks in the first place, something smaller players with lower resources like GOG find difficult to match. Which is, of course, the whole point of steam offering it in the first place.

[Ieo]

While I'd tend to agree that purchasing direct from the developer is best as an option, all distribution systems do have costs, Obsidian cannot simply provide the game themselves without overheads- you either need a system to manage purchases or accounts yourself (potentially expensive to establish and maintain) or use a premade system like BMT Micro, which will take their own cut. Using steam for "pre purchases" like kickstarter is understandable since part of the Embrace Extend Extinguish philosophy Gabe learned at MS is the benefit of loss leading, hence free steamworks in the first place, something smaller players with lower resources like GOG find difficult to match. Which is, of course, the whole point of steam offering it in the first place.

 

What about Amazon as a distribution channel? Their digital game downloads don't require DRM necessarily (core game downloader isn't installed but runs independently as a downloader for the full game with pause/resume functions); I got DRM-free Divinity2:DKS from them this way and just deleted the little downloader app after it was done. The small 'casual' games do require installation of the full client, but that doesn't apply here. From what I understand, Amazon's digital games service is meant to challenge Steam/whatever, but I have no idea how successful they are and the specific pros/cons since I rarely ever buy games anymore.

 

I wonder how well Steam/GoG/Amazon handle international orders, too.

[PsychoYoshi]

Well, with a linux version a possibility, Steam can't be the only source of the game. I would indeed love to see a DRM free version, and even more so I'd love to see you partner with GOG.com to release it there. They deserve a big game like this.

By the time this comes out Gabe might make good on his threat to release a Steam client for linux.

 

More than might. He specifically told Phoronix that it'd be out by the end of this year, and a "linux-compatible" tag has already been added to Greenlight. Some rumors are even saying that Valve might get it out before Microsoft releases Win8 so that they can thumb their noses at MS.

[evdk]

 

 

I wonder how well Steam/GoG/Amazon handle international orders, too.

 

I don't know about the others but GOG handles international orders without any problems. I'd suspect Amazon would be a tad problematic, given they do not allow me purchase any mp3s.

[Humanoid]

Amazon: They give me free credit to buy MP3s but don't let me redeem it because of my address - yeah.... Technically they won't sell any digital games to me either, but that said, as far as I know they only check the billing address instead of any more intelligent/insidious geolocation though, so it's fairly easy to get around.

 

 

Now presumably the reason for the restriction is not driven by them as much as it is by the publishers, but I'm not sure that they'd be prepared to overhaul their restrictions system for the sake of one independent publisher who wants their product to be unrestricted.

[Ieo]

I wonder how well Steam/GoG/Amazon handle international orders, too.

 

I don't know about the others but GOG handles international orders without any problems. I'd suspect Amazon would be a tad problematic, given they do not allow me purchase any mp3s.

Amazon: They give me free credit to buy MP3s but don't let me redeem it because of my address - yeah.... Technically they won't sell any digital games to me either, but that said, as far as I know they only check the billing address instead of any more intelligent/insidious geolocation though, so it's fairly easy to get around.

 

 

Now presumably the reason for the restriction is not driven by them as much as it is by the publishers, but I'm not sure that they'd be prepared to overhaul their restrictions system for the sake of one independent publisher who wants their product to be unrestricted.

 

Well, that's a shame. I'll put my grimy little vote token in the GoG bucket, then (for digital download) and I'll still hope that the only DRM on the box is a disc check or offline reg code at most.

[Darji]

Personally I do not mind Steam as a DRM in fact love it. But I also can understand people who want it like games are on GOG. I have my games rather on one platform that mixed through all the internet or directories^^

Edited September 17, 2012 by Darji

[Archon]

Obsidian isn't indie.

This project is.

 

Indeed.

Obsidian using Kickstarter sounds "indie" to me. But what matters is if GOG.com will "handle" this game as indie or not.

No matter what, GOG.com only have PC DRM-free. No Mac and/or Linux. The best way to distribute all DRM-free versions would be with Obsidian's own store.

[Tale]

I've never heard of GOG.com distributing things not bought from GOG.com, with the exception of the Witcher. Them validating Kickstarter rewards would be a first.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hornet85]

 

 

Well, that's a shame. I'll put my grimy little vote token in the GoG bucket, then (for digital download) and I'll still hope that the only DRM on the box is a disc check or offline reg code at most.

 

I'm glad you mentioned that, because DRM was a term that didn't exist back when we got our games on CD or floppy disk, but copy protection have existed even since the floppy days.

 

So I'm curious as to what people meant by DRM, is it the online DRM, or does it include traditional copy protection. IMO, its not reasonable to expect Obsidian to forfeit all copy protection. Otherwise I will bet you there will be people who buy the game and share the installer with their friends and divide the cost. Some people are that cheap.

 

Obsidian do have the right to protect their work at least with CD keys or something. It doesn't have to be online DRM, but at least to deter people from easily sharing the game.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Hornet85

[JWestfall]

Steam is fine, GOG is better simply because I support "what they stand for".

 

As long as they do not go the Ubisoft route (or similarly intrusive, idiotic and outright insulting DRM methods), I'll be content.

[licketysplit]

I've never heard of GOG.com distributing things not bought from GOG.com, with the exception of the Witcher. Them validating Kickstarter rewards would be a first.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

They're trying to branch out to newer and indie titles. That's why I'm pushing for this. The very ideals Obsidian has laid down in their kickstarter pledge align with what CDPR stands for. It's a no-brainer.

[Zoraptor]

I've never heard of GOG.com distributing things not bought from GOG.com, with the exception of the Witcher. Them validating Kickstarter rewards would be a first.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Carmageddon Reincarnation kickstarter, you got a voucher for the original game from GOG is you contributed $25 or more- though it hasn't been released yet.

[Nakia]

What's the big deal with DRM, if it gives the developers we like more profit, so that they can make better and more games, I see no problem with it.

 

Read the thread.

 

You may be unable to see problems with it, but that doesn't mean other people don't. If you like it fine, then sure, chalk that up to a vote for DRM.

I am a pirate myself, and I know how it works, I lurk lots of pirate forums, and a strong DRM does work to make profit, because some people just can't help it, and go and buy the game because they don't have the patience to wait for a crack.

 

Some of us also believe that pirating is stealing and that it hurts the developers of a game who do deserve to be paid for the work they have done.

 

I opt for a DRM free copy that I have paid for and have a legal license to use.

[RogueBurger]

I've never heard of GOG.com distributing things not bought from GOG.com, with the exception of the Witcher. Them validating Kickstarter rewards would be a first.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

All they would need to do is work out a financial arrangement for the outstanding sales, and then GOG would provide codes to Obsidian who would then distribute them to everyone who bought one. I don't see that being a problem.

[Veleda]

Throwing in my voice of support for the game to be available on GOG.com. I love Steam, but GOG.com and indie projects are a natural fit.