A suggestion for the romances you're considering (if any)

[Grimlorn]

People who are against romance, I believe, deep inside simply do not perceive RPGs as a proper full-fledged form of art, but rather something else, even if they don't fully recognize this position of theirs. Otherwise how can one seriously deny a medium that is supposed to examine human nature in all it's manifestations to properly touch a subject as crucial to sentient beings as love?

 

This guy has great points about games being art. Start from 5:25 and watch till the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBETU-uOGh8&feature=plcp

Really just seems like the idea of art is used to distract from the actual content of the games. Used to justify anything the developer does while making it wrong to criticize because yknow it's the art and art can't be bad. Edited September 19, 2012 by Grimlorn

[MReed]

For you guys to get these complex relationships where relationships are difficult to build and there are fights with your love interest, you'd have to build the game around the romance and forget about building an actual RPG. Don't you guys realize that when you ask for these "complex" relationships? The game would cease to be a RPG.

 

I don't think this is correct -- more accurate would be "The game would cease to be a traditional RPG (...and PE is supposed to be a traditional RPG)." A traditional RPG is about combat -- finding combat [quests], preparing for combat [buying and equipping stuff], doing combat, and recovering from combat [selling stuff, claiming rewards], and clearly relationships (romantic or otherwise) are irrelevant to this discussion.

 

On the other hand, PS:T and (to a lesser degree) KOTR:2 and BG games were notable because they broke this traditional RPG model. The only two infinity engine games that truly fit the "tradition RPG" mold are the IWD games, and it is quite obvious that IWD isn't a significant part of the inspiration for this game. So... Obsidian has already indicated that this game won't be a "traditional RPG" in the sense that you mean -- it will very likely include a large amount of content that doesn't revolve around (or even impact) combat.

 

Whether or not that will include romances is unknown at this point, thus this thread.

[Jiraboas]

The publisher tends to be the one asking them to include them.

 

Do you have some kind of "prove" about this statement?

 

Because of my own experience i dont can say that this is true. I read often that publishers dont want that kind of npc interaction because they think its only waste of time and mony, like mostly of all the other rpg features the fans love...

 

Maybe its not your kind of argue but some people "use" this "the publisher forced them to do" as a all-time-statment, to state out their point, and i dont think its a good idea to give all the bad choices to the publishers and say: "it was their faul!" It will be right many times, but not every time. Do you know what i mean?

 

 

Sawyer himself was saying after NWN2 that if they can't be done well, they shouldn't.

 

Yeah, since i discuss with you people about this, i also think that Obsidian isnt the kind of developer who could make this well, so they maybe shouldn't do it, because its not their "style" and all this.

 

I do think romances are a important part of human being and so it has to be in video games too. Imagine a Max Payne Story without his beloved wife, or Mona Sax. It will be only a shooting game with a dark setting. But the human feelings of Max let me feel he is a real(but crazy) person, not just a "video game hero" kick-all-the-asses-bad-guy like duke nukem and such. Human feelings make us..uhm...human, so without this,video game characters never feel like real acting humans, only like unreal puppets, or robots. Thats my opinion.

 

 

kind regards,

 

Jira

Edited September 19, 2012 by Jiraboas

[Grimlorn]

For you guys to get these complex relationships where relationships are difficult to build and there are fights with your love interest, you'd have to build the game around the romance and forget about building an actual RPG. Don't you guys realize that when you ask for these "complex" relationships? The game would cease to be a RPG.

 

I don't think this is correct -- more accurate would be "The game would cease to be a traditional RPG (...and PE is supposed to be a traditional RPG)." A traditional RPG is about combat -- finding combat [quests], preparing for combat [buying and equipping stuff], doing combat, and recovering from combat [selling stuff, claiming rewards], and clearly relationships (romantic or otherwise) are irrelevant to this discussion.

 

On the other hand, PS:T and (to a lesser degree) KOTR:2 and BG games were notable because they broke this traditional RPG model. The only two infinity engine games that truly fit the "tradition RPG" mold are the IWD games, and it is quite obvious that IWD isn't a significant part of the inspiration for this game. So... Obsidian has already indicated that this game won't be a "traditional RPG" in the sense that you mean -- it will very likely include a large amount of content that doesn't revolve around (or even impact) combat.

 

Whether or not that will include romances is unknown at this point, thus this thread.

Depends on your definition of a RPG. If you think the Sims is a RPG because you're playing house and building a family, or you think Halo is a RPG because you're playing the role of Masterchief, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

I'm not talking about a focus on story and dialogue those games had. I'm talking about Rose's post above where they want romantic storylines, fights and disagreements with love interest, and they want to fail at romancing but become platonic friends and have storylines for those. This would make romances and relationships the center of the game. That would make the focus of the game about relationship simulating and it would no longer be a RPG.

[Meshugger]

I am starting to understand why 50 shades of grey is so popular now...

[Tale]

The publisher tends to be the one asking them to include them.

 

Do you have some kind of "prove" about this statement?

 

Here's MCA on Alpha Protocol.

http://www.gamasutra...lep__Part_2.php

 

WO: Personally, what are your feelings on how it was received? Anything you would have done differently?

...

MCA: Also, I'd have dropped one romance, at least. I hate them normally, and having 4 in one game, all of which I had to write, was a pain in the ass. I lobbied for killing the Scarlet romance (spoiler, though probably not a shock if you've played past the first mission) and successfully got a 5th romance kicked from the game, but the others remained like a taint. Still, it's part of the spy fantasy and it was part of the mandate, so it was time to roll up the sleeves and get to the romancin'. I confess that I enjoyed writing the "hate" sides of the romances better, between Madison losing her temper, Mina's final judgment, and... well, I always liked SIE, no matter which direction.

 

Sawyer's gone on record saying he doesn't hate romances, but he doesn't think the player should necessarily be able to win. And that people tend to want them even when the author doesn't think it fits the character, like with Neeshka. That was 6 years ago. I don't know if he's changed or if he's willing to take it up as a challenge to write some to his satisfaction.

[l3loodangel]

Really just seems like the idea of art is used to distract from the actual content of the games. Used to justify anything the developer does while making it wrong to criticize because yknow it's the art and art can't be bad.

 

It is used as a distraction. But even if it's art, it does not imply that it's an artistic achievement, because covering yourself with ****...

[Jiraboas]

Stop it to talk all day about "Sims" like there was any romance in there.

 

Sims is only a cheep simulator of human interaction, without any intelectual content.

 

You dont "talk" to the sim-npc. You only watch them talk in a strange language and do childish things in the bedroom. There isnt any content of character developing, personal storys, personality, etc.

 

You cant compare it with rpg dialogues, because "The Sims" doesnt have any "dialogues" except of this strange mumbeling nobody understand(like my english, i think :D)

 

kind regards,

 

Jira

Edited September 19, 2012 by Jiraboas

[MReed]

I agreed that the definition of RPG is fuzzy-- I was just trying to get at your definition of what the key elements of an RPG are. That would help make the debate more meaningful...

 

Try looking at it this way: For the sake of argument, lets say that implementing one romance costs $100k, and that breaks down to 85% to the "writing" budget (dialog creation and related scripting, voice over work, etc.), 14 % testing (making sure the scripts work, etc.), and 1% as Other. Other includes monster / equipment / area design ("art"), unique programming, and so forth.

 

If you were in charge, what would you spend that $100k on as opposed to romances? Keep in mind that resources aren't "fungible" -- for example, "I'd like several new areas" isn't a valid answer, because that would require lots of "art" resources and not much in the way of "writing" resources. Cutting a romance might get you a quarter of a new area, for example, and still leave you with idle writing resources that aren't doing anything. Adding three new quests, though, might work -- if no new areas / equipment / monsters were part of the new quests.

[duskwind]

This on the other hand is harmful, just because it breaks immersion by taking what would be a fully developed NPC and turning them into a token.

 

How is a fully developed bisexual character token while an otherwise identical fully developed homosexual or heterosexual character not?

 

For you guys to get these complex relationships where relationships are difficult to build and there are fights with your love interest, you'd have to build the game around the romance and forget about building an actual RPG. Don't you guys realize that when you ask for these "complex" relationships? The game would cease to be a RPG.

 

You do understand that the RP in RPG stands for "role-playing", right? A relationship simulator is an RPG, a fantasy combat simulator is not. I prefer RPGs that take place in fantasy worlds and feature combat as a major part of the game, just as I prefer fantasy novels with a strong plot as well as well developed characters over both Mills & Boon or mindless action.

 

One, I'd like that the orientation of the LI is their own and doesn't change based on the sex of the PC.

 

Absolutely. As long as that orientation is bi for all romancable characters, irrespective of the sex of the PC Well, actually I don't mind either way, they can be bi or switch orientation, whatever the devs prefer.

 

 

But I seriously agree with everything else in your post.

[qloher]

Are you serious? So people who don't like romances in video games are unable to perceive art in video games? Nice insult. Maybe you should take a look at a lot of older RPGs. They were never about examining all of human nature in all of its manifestations. Especially romance. They were about adventuring, questing, killing monsters, not roleplaying getting laid. You guys are crazy, glorifying something that boils down to a couple conversations and a sex scene. Oh but that's art right?

I'm serious.

I perceive RPGs as role-playing games where I can role play my character as an actual person, not as a mere killing machine. I personally have zero interest in dungeon crawlers and Diablo-eskue hack and slashes no matter how old or new they are. I like my characters and plots deep. Just like in Planescape for example. And what was the central question of that game, can you recall it? "What can change the nature of a man?"

Also romances doesn't have to be reduced to "a couple of conversations and a sex scene".

 

l3loodangel

I remember seing this when ME3 came out along with MrBtongue's, Archengeia's and smudboy's videos. For the record, I myself hate Mass Effect 3 with passion as the next guy here, probably even more. Has been ridiculing the hell of BW's "art" defence forever now. Still don't let their fallacy to undermine the whole concept of art for you.

 

The publisher tends to be the one asking them to include them. I suspect your idea of a well done romance and their idea would conflict. Sawyer himself was saying after NWN2 that if they can't be done well, they shouldn't. All those conditions you state seem like a better argument for avoiding it.

Well, of cause it's up to developers to ultimately decide, not up to romance supporters on forums. Nor up to romance opposers. We only can voice our personal opinions on the matter, all the more so we were asked to.

[BSoda]

Hmm, considering that a majority seems to want these romances.

 

A majority of who? People flooding this site? Same thing happened to the WL2 forums during their KS campaign. Once people realized they weren't getting another touchy feely BioWare style game they either exclaimed very loudly and pulled their pledges or simply lost interest.

You know that the people "flooding" this site are probably the exact same people that actually support the PE kickstarter, right ? You know, the people actually *funding* the game ? ...and you somewhat have a strange recollection of the early WL2 forum days. A minority (just like here, coincidentally) was *vehemently* against any form of romance -most supported it but *still* didn't want the "Bioware style, touchy feely" romances...and they didn't lose interest more than the bulk of the WL2 supporters. Just look at their forum now. The "What to include" board (the most frequented one) has had 3 (!) posts today.

[Azure79]

If there are romances I'd like them to more like Torment. Deionarra, Annah and Fall From Grace were all memorable great characters.

 

I also quite enjoyed the Safiya romance in MoTB.

 

I don't mind if they are or are not included, but I would enjoy something more intricate and subtle that grows slowly and is tied to the plot in some way.

[TwinkieGorilla]

You know that the people "flooding" this site are probably the exact same people that actually support the PE kickstarter, right ?

 

Yes. And I giggle with glee to think of the massive butthurt when they find out they're not going to get what they want. Just look at the dev quotes at the top of this page.

 

You know, the people actually *funding* the game ?

 

Thank you for reiterating. I was unsure what you meant by "actually support the PE kickstarter".

 

and you somewhat have a strange recollection of the early WL2 forum days. A minority (just like here, coincidentally) was *vehemently* against any form of romance -most supported it but *still* didn't want the "Bioware style, touchy feely" romances...and they didn't lose interest more than the bulk of the WL2 supporters. Just look at their forum now. The "What to include" board (the most frequented one) has had 3 (!) posts today.

 

No, actually my memory of that period is quite clear. Once it became obvious that WL2 wasn't going to include such nonsense those against it stopped bothering.

Edited September 19, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Grimlorn]

For you guys to get these complex relationships where relationships are difficult to build and there are fights with your love interest, you'd have to build the game around the romance and forget about building an actual RPG. Don't you guys realize that when you ask for these "complex" relationships? The game would cease to be a RPG.

 

You do understand that the RP in RPG stands for "role-playing", right? A relationship simulator is an RPG, a fantasy combat simulator is not. I prefer RPGs that take place in fantasy worlds and feature combat as a major part of the game, just as I prefer fantasy novels with a strong plot as well as well developed characters over both Mills & Boon or mindless action.

No relationship simulators aren't RPGs. Your definition of a RPG is wrong and flawed.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Oh man, yes please. Let's break it all the way down until we get to the "Pong is an RPG" argument!

[l3loodangel]

Try looking at it this way: For the sake of argument, lets say that implementing one romance costs $100k, and that breaks down to 85% to the "writing" budget (dialog creation and related scripting, voice over work, etc.), 14 % testing (making sure the scripts work, etc.), and 1% as Other. Other includes monster / equipment / area design ("art"), unique programming, and so forth.

 

If you were in charge, what would you spend that $100k on as opposed to romances? Keep in mind that resources aren't "fungible" -- for example, "I'd like several new areas" isn't a valid answer, because that would require lots of "art" resources and not much in the way of "writing" resources. Cutting a romance might get you a quarter of a new area, for example, and still leave you with idle writing resources that aren't doing anything. Adding three new quests, though, might work -- if no new areas / equipment / monsters were part of the new quests.

 

What do I do? Hmmm.

 

1. A class.

2. One race or some interesting sub race.

3. An arena or some underground illegal fights that a player char can participate. In capital or smaller city or cities.

4. Maybe some art assets that can be used in many areas to make them better.

5. A crafting system.

6. More choices and consequences.

7. An entire faction. It maybe small, but as long as it is interestint it's not important.

8. More endings.

 

And that's just the tip of my tongue...

Edited September 19, 2012 by l3loodangel

[Jiraboas]

Yes. And I giggle with glee to think of the massive butthurt when they find out they're not going to get what they want. Just look at the dev quotes at the top of this page.

 

Sorry to disapointing you, but it dont will be. I am fine with that, what Obsidian will be decide. I dont mind if they dont do everything i want.I dont want dwarves and elves, but they will be in, who cares? Elves and dwareves are chlichee but they are good. I dont want firearms in the game, but they will be in the game, but who cares? Maybe the firearms will be a good feature and i will miss it after a while playing PE and i will be glad they are in. I do want romances in the game, but if they not in the game, you guessed ist, who cares? It will be not a bad game, only because their will be no romances...

 

If i do want a game wich is like i imagine, i do it myself.(Actually i do, but who cares?^^)I am skilled enough do it, and im proud of it, so i do it myself and i will be fine with this.

 

I gave my money(actually i dont gave money yet, i waiting for the paypal account ) to make it posible for Obsidian to make THEIR game, because i trust thes guys and i love their games. I dont give my money to cry about if i dont get what i want.

 

Dont be childish ^_^

 

 

kind regards,

 

Jira

Edited September 19, 2012 by Jiraboas

[Grimlorn]

Are you serious? So people who don't like romances in video games are unable to perceive art in video games? Nice insult. Maybe you should take a look at a lot of older RPGs. They were never about examining all of human nature in all of its manifestations. Especially romance. They were about adventuring, questing, killing monsters, not roleplaying getting laid. You guys are crazy, glorifying something that boils down to a couple conversations and a sex scene. Oh but that's art right?

I'm serious.

I perceive RPGs as role-playing games where I can role play my character as an actual person, not as a mere killing machine. I personally have zero interest in dungeon crawlers and Diablo-eskue hack and slashes no matter how old or new they are. I like my characters and plots deep. Just like in Planescape for example. And what was the central question of that game, can you recall it? "What can change the nature of a man?"

Also romances doesn't have to be reduced to "a couple of conversations and a sex scene".

Are you super serious? No one here is talking about hack and slash games. You like your characters and plot deep? Are they deep if there aren't romances because that's what you're implying with your post. That there needs to be romance otherwise characters can't be deep.

[Wintersong]

I mean what are these people compensating for? Lack of love in life? Lack of friends?

The supply of stupid arguments like this seems endless.

Do you play cRPGs to compensate for your lack of killings in real life? Or the lack of looting the houses of strangers?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role

The rest are classes, levels, loot tables and such, that are designed to enhance the experience and give more detail the same you would use props as kid when you played cowboys or whatever.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Wintersong

[duskwind]

No relationship simulators aren't RPGs.

 

Well, that's technically true

(you might want to consider adding a comma to get your intended meaning across)

Edited September 19, 2012 by duskwind

[el pinko grande]

Are you saying that A) There has been a videogame which has properly touched on this subject and B) that videogames are even a slightly decent medium to handle these topics? See, that's the problem. Love just seems too weighty a concept for these scenarios. It always comes off as trite:

 

PC: I like you want to kiss?

NPC: I want to know you better.

PC: Hey, tell me a story!

NPC: Story.

PC: Now a kiss?

NPC: Ok, I love you now!

 

(right-click = touch butt, left-click = touch crotch)

 

Okay, story time. When I was playing through Dragon Age, my then girlfriend, who has no interest in games generally, started to watch me play. She thought combat was boring, and usually just read books while I was doing that, but she liked it when I was talking to the NPCs. And she especially liked watching me hit on Morrigan. And she got really really interested when Leliana showed up and I decided to hit on her, too. She started out loving Morrigan and hating Leliana, but slowly switched positions over the course of the game. In fact, she took kind of a sadistic glee in seeing how screwed up Morrigan was emotionally. The Dark Ritual thing completely knocked her on her ass, because by that point she was invested enough in my character that she didn't want him to die, but thought that Morrigan toxic and didn't want my Warden sleeping with her. Once we got to the epilogue, she was relieved to see that Morrigan actually took the evil god baby and left, since she was afraid Morrigan would turn into a crazy stalker and murder Leliana's weird little rabbit thing and turn it into a pair of shoes.

 

So yes, I think that the romance in Dragon Age was well done. My girlfriend didn't care about video games before or after Dragon Age, but she found the romances compelling enough that she formed attachments to the various characters involved and became invested in the story. If it were just fan service, or if it were poorly written, I don't think that would have happened.

 

And just to mine all of the controversial territory I can with this post, the exact same thing happened with one of my friends who played Dragon Age who happened to be a gay man. He was playing, his non-gamer boyfriend started watching him, and both got totally caught up in the Alistair romance. I was hearing about how they both had crushes on Alistair for weeks after they stopped playing.

[TwinkieGorilla]

The supply of stupid arguments like this seems endless.

Do you play cRPGs to compensate for your lack of killings in real life? Or the lack of looting the houses of strangers?

 

You know what...you're right. I hope to someday buy a chess set which comes with options for romance.

 

 

Okay, story time. When I was playing through Dragon Age

 

Sorry, you lost me.

Edited September 19, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Grimlorn]

I mean what are these people compensating for? Lack of love in life? Lack of friends?

The supply of stupid arguments like this seems endless.

Do you play cRPGs to compensate for your lack of killings in real life? Or the lack of looting the houses of strangers?

Yes I am compensating for the lack of adventure in my life and exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and boldly going where no man has gone before.

 

So if that's true then the pro-romance crowd is compensating for a lack of relationships and romances in their lives. Sounds sad. I feel sorry for you guys.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Grimlorn

[evdk]

Are you saying that A) There has been a videogame which has properly touched on this subject and B) that videogames are even a slightly decent medium to handle these topics? See, that's the problem. Love just seems too weighty a concept for these scenarios. It always comes off as trite:

 

PC: I like you want to kiss?

NPC: I want to know you better.

PC: Hey, tell me a story!

NPC: Story.

PC: Now a kiss?

NPC: Ok, I love you now!

 

(right-click = touch butt, left-click = touch crotch)

 

Okay, story time. When I was playing through Dragon Age, my then girlfriend, who has no interest in games generally, started to watch me play. She thought combat was boring, and usually just read books while I was doing that, but she liked it when I was talking to the NPCs. And she especially liked watching me hit on Morrigan. And she got really really interested when Leliana showed up and I decided to hit on her, too. She started out loving Morrigan and hating Leliana, but slowly switched positions over the course of the game. In fact, she took kind of a sadistic glee in seeing how screwed up Morrigan was emotionally. The Dark Ritual thing completely knocked her on her ass, because by that point she was invested enough in my character that she didn't want him to die, but thought that Morrigan toxic and didn't want my Warden sleeping with her. Once we got to the epilogue, she was relieved to see that Morrigan actually took the evil god baby and left, since she was afraid Morrigan would turn into a crazy stalker and murder Leliana's weird little rabbit thing and turn it into a pair of shoes.

 

So yes, I think that the romance in Dragon Age was well done. My girlfriend didn't care about video games before or after Dragon Age, but she found the romances compelling enough that she formed attachments to the various characters involved and became invested in the story. If it were just fan service, or if it were poorly written, I don't think that would have happened.

 

And just to mine all of the controversial territory I can with this post, the exact same thing happened with one of my friends who played Dragon Age who happened to be a gay man. He was playing, his non-gamer boyfriend started watching him, and both got totally caught up in the Alistair romance. I was hearing about how they both had crushes on Alistair for weeks after they stopped playing.

People who do not like RPGs start enjoying them due to added features that do not directly have anything to do with core RPG mechanics and them demanding the same in all other game shifting definitions in the process is what brought us the last ten or so years of ****. I mean look at the latest IGN trolling attempt Top 100 RPGs article.

Edited September 19, 2012 by evdk