The Joy of Human Rights - The EU Way..

[Raithe]

So how many folks have been paying attention to the ongoing issue between the EU Court of Human Rights and the UK's long stand that if you get sent to jail, you lose your vote while you're in prison?

 

It really kicked off back in 2004, when a convicted axe murderer complained that he wasn't allowed to vote... and the ECHR ruled in favour of the man..

 

While the panel of unelected Judges (the majority of whom have never even held a Judicial position in their own countries) from the EU's Human Rights Court have been pushing this, the UK has had a few votes and even cross-party support in not giving into the pressure of changing the law.

 

 

Daily Mail - Prisoner vote row : European judges insist prisoners MUST vote

 

The unelected judges instead gave David Cameron six months to obey their diktat or risk having to pay

[Gorth]

If the EU is going to crash and burn anyway, does it matter in the long term?

 

Another gem, shamelessly borrowed from BBC:

 

"As Commission Regulation (EC) 2257/94 puts it, bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature". In the case of "Extra class" bananas, there is no wiggle room, but Class 1 bananas can have "slight defects of shape", and Class 2 bananas can have full-on "defects of shape".

 

No attempt is made to define "abnormal curvature" in the case of bananas, which must lead to lots of arguments. Contrast the case of cucumbers (Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88), where Class I and "Extra class" cucumbers are allowed a bend of 10mm per 10cm of length. Class II cucumbers can bend twice as much."

 

How are people supposed to standardise Bananas and Cucumbers without the the EU? What is the loss of sovereignty compared to such benefits???

[Morgoth]

Man you guys have issues. Always picking out some foul raisin and then crying "Doom and crash! The EU will collapse!!! Wuahh".

 

Wake me up when this actually really happens, that is, never.

[Malcador]

British being pissy about something again ?

[Humodour]

I've always thought the British are more of a detriment to the EU than a benefit. They should perhaps leave if they dislike it so much.

 

As for prisoners voting... I think it's important that people are always able to vote. Otherwise you can potentially get the kinds of problems such as the US has, where hundreds of thousands of people get thrown in prison for non-violent drug offences like smoking a joint and due to this lose their right to vote. That is not at all fair.

[Gfted1]

I've always thought the British are more of a detriment to the EU than a benefit. They should perhaps leave if they dislike it so much.

 

As for prisoners voting... I think it's important that people are always able to vote. Otherwise you can potentially get the kinds of problems such as the US has, where hundreds of thousands of people get thrown in prison for non-violent drug offences like smoking a joint and due to this lose their right to vote. That is not at all fair.

 

No.

[HoonDing]

British being pissy about something again ?

Time for another riot.

[Humodour]

I've always thought the British are more of a detriment to the EU than a benefit. They should perhaps leave if they dislike it so much.

 

As for prisoners voting... I think it's important that people are always able to vote. Otherwise you can potentially get the kinds of problems such as the US has, where hundreds of thousands of people get thrown in prison for non-violent drug offences like smoking a joint and due to this lose their right to vote. That is not at all fair.

 

No.

 

 

Yes.

 

Unfortunately, the list of things which count as a 'felony' in the US (accepting that it varies by state) does include lots of more minor non-violent crimes as well as non-violent drug offences. Or did you disagree with some other aspect of what I said?

[Gfted1]

I've always thought the British are more of a detriment to the EU than a benefit. They should perhaps leave if they dislike it so much.

 

As for prisoners voting... I think it's important that people are always able to vote. Otherwise you can potentially get the kinds of problems such as the US has, where hundreds of thousands of people get thrown in prison for non-violent drug offences like smoking a joint and due to this lose their right to vote. That is not at all fair.

 

No.

 

 

Yes.

 

Unfortunately, the list of things which count as a 'felony' in the US (accepting that it varies by state) does include lots of more minor non-violent crimes as well as non-violent drug offences. Or did you disagree with some other aspect of what I said?

 

I was disagreeing that felons lost their voting right permanently (although you didnt specifically say that, thats the gist I took from your post). According to my link they only lose the right while in prison and every state except two allows for eventual reinstatement upon completion of the felons probation/parole. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Raithe]

British being pissy about something again ?

 

Call me crazy, but having a bunch of non-elected officials, most of whom are bureaucrats rather then geniuses of legal ability and aren't even from your country tell your elected officials what they have to do, even in the face of the actual democratic voting on the matter...

 

Especially when it started due to a literal Axe Murderer who delights in attempting to "game the system" making the original complaint?

[Malcador]

Never did believe in electing judges, really, low opinion of the public and them wanting some draconian types I suppose. Didn't get a chance to give the judge list a good review, but most of them seem to be lawyers, so that's something towards their credentials, heh.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Malcador

[Gorgon]

I like how it says that imprisonment loses you the right to posess firearms. I bet the guards are happy about that one.

 

For my money it depends on the crime. Political participation is part of what includes you in society. Many people don't care I know, but in principle. Having some small representation would also help ward off abuse in prisons.

[Hurlshort]

How dare they have repercussions to your actions? What a barbaric concept!

[Gorgon]

We like to maintain tense in our sentences. I'm going to mark that as an error.

[Rosbjerg]

How dare they have repercussions to your actions? What a barbaric concept!

 

The barbaric concept is believing that robbing people off freedom, punish and degrading them will somehow make them better people.. You know how we scorn parents who always criticize their kids and never take the time to teach them the skills to actually be good? The reason for that is it produces rotten kids - society works on a much similar principle, if people don't feel like they belong or that their actions have no real social consequence (ie they are hated no matter what), then what's gonna make them change? The carrot is infinitely better than a rod, especially working with people.

 

Of course some a just looney and needs to be taken to a brightly lid facility with rubberwalls, but let's not judge every misdemeanor as deserving of that.

[Raithe]

How dare they have repercussions to your actions? What a barbaric concept!

 

The barbaric concept is believing that robbing people off freedom, punish and degrading them will somehow make them better people.. You know how we scorn parents who always criticize their kids and never take the time to teach them the skills to actually be good? The reason for that is it produces rotten kids - society works on a much similar principle, if people don't feel like they belong or that their actions have no real social consequence (ie they are hated no matter what), then what's gonna make them change? The carrot is infinitely better than a rod, especially working with people.

 

Of course some a just looney and needs to be taken to a brightly lid facility with rubberwalls, but let's not judge every misdemeanor as deserving of that.

 

okay, not every prisoner has no voting rights. I can't remember the exact breakdown, but pretty much the "misdemeanour" crowd , especially those who have sentences of a year or three are able to vote. But it's pretty much aimed at the "hard time" cons. And the moment they get out of prison, they can vote. But whilst they're in prison, as part of thepunishment for breaking the social contract and commiting crimes that get you arrested.. you can't vote.

 

It's not like they are stripped of the vote to right until they die.

[Nepenthe]

The EU doesn't have a human rights court, in fact it has nothing to do with this. The Eurocracy might be a bunch of ****-ups, but let's keep the stuff the Council of Europe does out of their list of sins.

 

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

[Humodour]

In other words, this EU beat up by a Brit is misleading and based on an incorrect premise? Gee, why am I not surprised. Maybe it was the fact that the first "news" source quoted was the Daily Mail.

[Raithe]

Yes, sorry, the morass of annoying European bureaucrats sticking their toe in.. It tends to merge together.

 

I forgot, if it was the American's telling people in Europe to change their laws and such-like it would be an obvious annoyance to people. But because it's the UK suffering under Europeans, it's the UK whinging...

[Nepenthe]

Well, the Council of Europe was founded with the Treaty of London, so maybe you should accept the blame for it and just whip out that old stiff upper lip and concentrate on the bollocks that Brussels is making of everything? It's not like most of Western Europe has a problem with excessively high voter turnouts, either. Maybe only happy when we reach the U.S. levels of disinterest?

Edited May 24, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Walsingham]

The problem is - like almost everything to do with the EU - the eurocrats are applying treaties and powers in ways never intended while ignoring real issues.

 

The only real way to tackle the problem would be to drop out of the Union, but it woudl be a colossal headache for business wanting to work inside Europe. Not something we want right now.

 

Or of course we could just ignore the ruling, and refuse to do anything about it. Plenty of our European partners simply ignore the bits of the EU they don't like.

[Humodour]

The problem is - like almost everything to do with the EU - the eurocrats are applying treaties and powers in ways never intended while ignoring real issues.

 

The only real way to tackle the problem would be to drop out of the Union, but it woudl be a colossal headache for business wanting to work inside Europe. Not something we want right now.

 

Or of course we could just ignore the ruling, and refuse to do anything about it. Plenty of our European partners simply ignore the bits of the EU they don't like.

 

Read thread. Council of Europe != The EU.

 

Britain can drop out of the EU all it wants. It would still be in the Council of Europe, unless it wants to drop out of that, too.