Games and culture/history/myth

[pmp10]

One of the things I'm currently mulling over is whether it's significant that some rituals, group experiences and social bonds no longer exist in the same way in our society, and we only get to experience them through the proxy of games (and other media).

I'm all for discussing cultural exposure but take issue with the notion that we can 'experience' cultures and events from the past by the means of any form of entertainment.

The experiences we are presented are tailored for mass-consumption and as such will never make a serious attempt to present reality - it's all good to have fun with them as long we don't confuse them with the real thing.

 

And I think the way such thing are presented is very educational in and of itself.

You can clearly see our own biases and prejudices when you look at all the topics that are 'no-go' in a computer game.

[Nepenthe]

No.

[Tigranes]

I'm all for discussing cultural exposure but take issue with the notion that we can 'experience' cultures and events from the past by the means of any form of entertainment.

The experiences we are presented are tailored for mass-consumption and as such will never make a serious attempt to present reality - it's all good to have fun with them as long we don't confuse them with the real thing.

 

And I think the way such thing are presented is very educational in and of itself.

You can clearly see our own biases and prejudices when you look at all the topics that are 'no-go' in a computer game.

 

You're right, of course. What I'd like to do is get away from the simple real or fake, accurate or made-up, educational or entertainment binaries - I don't think games are meaningless fodder, but it's not like they're some sort of spiritual reincarnation of myths, and it's definitely not like they need to 'educate' us about 17th century Christianity for it to be significant. I'm still rolling various ideas around, but I'm trying to figure out a little of how this process of cultural flow is working in its own disjointed way.

 

And of course, where some gamers are concerned, they really feel that stuff doesn't matter at all. (See above, Exhibition A.) That shouldn't be ignored - which is why I wanted to know how you guys thought about your own gaming experiences. I'm intrigued to see that most people talk about it in terms of learning new information, as opposed to moral/ethical or 'emotional' sides. Maybe that's because of how I worded the original post, or maybe it's just me; ironically, I tend to be really cynical about big ceremonies and rituals in real life, like the Diamond Jubilee, but am more impressed by, say, the fate of the Nameless One or the Vault Dweller just because they are 'true' in the gameworld.

[Nepenthe]

In my case, it's probably more linked to the types of games I play (these days). If I was into "historically accurate" strategy, it very well could expand my knowledge of some historical events and conflicts. Games are a part of popular culture in the same way as, say, movies, tv series etc. so, sure, they expand my participation in that. But is there something unique about the medium in this sense? No. Is this impact significant in the scope of either gaming or the sum of my education, so to speak? No.

[Gorth]

I'm intrigued to see that most people talk about it in terms of learning new information, as opposed to moral/ethical or 'emotional' sides.

In my younger years, I tried to kill all the centipedes running towards me. I still don't like centipedes. Not sure if the two are related though

 

Maybe younger people are more impressionable when it comes to moral/emotional stuff in games? Some of us jaded old cynics probably spend more time analyzing which buttons the developers were attempting to push. Oh God, you are the only one who can save us Gorth... you are such a hero! (urrkkk!...).

[Calax]

I'm intrigued to see that most people talk about it in terms of learning new information, as opposed to moral/ethical or 'emotional' sides.

Due to the more commercial nature of the medium, I doubt you'll find many games that espouse a morality that's different from the consuming audience. And if they offer a moral path that's contrary to current ideals, the game will make it fairly clear that "you are ebil!"

 

It would be interesting to see a game that took something that was commonplace years ago (lets say, royal arranged marraiges?) and actually toyed with it a bit. Have the protagonists be just old enough to start recognizing relationships for what they are, and the opening "act" be their wedding... Sorry

 

i think the only major thing you'd find transmitted from the games, is the tangential learning. At least, for most of "our" generation. Maybe once the world is more globalized and children are raised with most of their social interactions done via Xbox Live (ewwww) or MMO's, you'd see a different form of moral guidelines being created/transmitted to the gamers.

[Cantousent]

I think it's too easy to say that we don't care about games and they don't affect us. Unless you're willing to say that games are somehow substantively different from movies, television, or books, you should accept that games affect us. All media has an impact on popular culture and, whlie sometimes popular culture might be a guilty pleasure for some of us, it does have a significant impact on... well... culture.

 

I will nod to a couple of things. Orog made me laugh out loud with the Kreia comment, for which I am grateful. I agree with the following: "[y]ou can clearly see our own biases and prejudices when you look at all the topics that are 'no-go' in a computer game." I agree with Tig that playing TNO was much more significant to me than many games that go out of the way to present 'moral dilemmas.' Finally, Gorth, you old bastard, I think I'm actually a little older than you. :Cant's **** eating grin icon:

 

Basically, I think you get as much out of a game as you desire, but there comes a time when you just want to sit back and play a game without any navel gazing. At those times, you just don't give a crap about larger picture items. On the other hand, those ideas presented in games do have a way of seeping into our world view, whether folks want to downplay the signifcance or not.

 

One last point: a lot of my educational background is in mythology, not only reading but also doing my own translations, and often I don't think game developers screw it up any more than the ancients did. There's a lot of conflicting or alternate mythology out there. Movies and games and books and tv shows and campfire stories and all of those fluffy things we discard out of hand are a huge part of our existence. To downplay their significance is undoubtedly misguided, but I suppose there's no point in arguing about it.

[Gorth]

Unless you're willing to say that games are somehow substantively different from movies, television, or books, you should accept that games affect us.

I think there is one key difference, which may or not be important in how you experience media. Games often tries to make you the protagonist, whereas books, movies etc. while told through the eyes of a protagonist, still relegate you to the role of an observer. When reading a story, you experience it through somebody elses observations and interpretations (and sometimes expositions), but when you play a game, it will sometimes try (rather unsubtly) to force a particular emotion/mood on the gamer. Like bashing you over your head with a hammer that says "You feel sad now".

 

I think good game design is like make-up in that regard. It usually works best when you don't notice it. Few master that particular artform.

[Cantousent]

Ahhh, good point my friend.

[Zoraptor]

I think there is one key difference, which may or not be important in how you experience media. Games often tries to make you the protagonist, whereas books, movies etc. while told through the eyes of a protagonist, still relegate you to the role of an observer. When reading a story, you experience it through somebody elses observations and interpretations (and sometimes expositions), but when you play a game, it will sometimes try (rather unsubtly) to force a particular emotion/mood on the gamer. Like bashing you over your head with a hammer that says "You feel sad now".

I'd add that there is a fundamental difference between many games and the more traditional forms of media. The traditional media are almost entirely narrowly deterministic- there is a set, predetermined and constant set of events in a book or movie that will always be the same no matter what. Even in a story sense that is not necessarily true with games, there's potentially a lot more engagement when the effects you see on a story are directly influenced by decisions you yourself have made as opposed to happening only because that's the way the author has written it.

 

Potentially that is one of games greatest strengths, sadly it is seldom exploited as such.

[trulez]

Do games play any role in your exposure to or thoughts about different cultures, history, myth, religion and ritual?

No.

[Orchomene]

I think many Paradox games contain a good amount of historical information the open the mind about history events in countries far from your own culture.

Other than that, very few games.

More in P&P RPGs with friends when we have to prepare geographical or historical details in the setting of a campaign (when the game is on our world).

[LadyCrimson]

I'm intrigued to see that most people talk about it in terms of learning new information, as opposed to moral/ethical or 'emotional' sides.

It's rare I feel any emotion while playing video games outside of the action adrenaline rush or strategic sense of triumph/failure. Probably why I've never been concerned/big on "story" in games. I don't feel it, so I don't care. When a game does make me feel emotion, it's given to a party member - you spend time adventuring with them, mimicking "shared experience" in some small, electronic way, perhaps. But NPC's who just appear to give me info I feel nothing for. They may as well be statues.

 

That said, books were much more emotional for me as I grew up...it's all I had. No pc/internet. Difficult home life and wanting escape. Reading, text literally disappears/I'm unaware of "words" as my brain translates them into a movie inside my head. It's that imagination process (turning words into pictures) that can make even the minor chrs. who appear only once in a book more memorable and "alive" than cardboard NPC's in a video game that my brain doesn't have to imagine.

 

So from my perspective, there is definitely a huge difference between books, film/TV, and video games. (Film/TV falls between books and games, for me).

 

By the time I got into pc gaming, I was already in my mid/late 20's with most of my main interests is entrenched. So vid. games were largely about "ooh, computer tech is getting so awesome" and "this sure beats puzzles and solitaire when I'm bored" vs. meaningful influence. Maybe if I'd first played Doom or Myst when I was 9....but since I didn't, I can't say.

Edited April 3, 2012 by LadyCrimson

[Cantousent]

Oh come on, my Crimson friend, you didn't kind of like the characters in New Vegas, you luuuuuuurved them! ...And I've seen the video footage to prove it! :D

 

I think folks over-think what has had an impact on them. It's often hard to trace down every element that builds into your personality. Just because you didn't give away all your goods and join an abbey the first time you played a cleric in an RPG doesn't mean that you didn't get something out of it. I know it's chic to be jaded and deny that anything effects you, but things impact your thoughts. This isn't a vacuum here! :Cant's rueful grin icon:

[Starwars]

A bit off-topic here, butI think in terms of "emotional impact" (if we define it for a moment where you actively react to something in a game) it's often the smaller things that get to me for some reason. I mean, I love the companions of Planescape: Torment. But what was it that created a little lump in my throat? It was Ingress, running around the Hive being afraid to accidentally enter any portals. For some reason, that's always what I think of when I see PS:T mentioned somewhere.

I don't know what that proves except that I think it takes very little for anything to potentially "get to you", it just needs to resound with... something inside you.

[Calax]

Oh come on, my Crimson friend, you didn't kind of like the characters in New Vegas, you luuuuuuurved them! ...And I've seen the video footage to prove it! :D

Particularly a lotto winner.

[Cantousent]

Everybody lurves the lotto winner, Super-Cal.

[LadyCrimson]

Oh come on, my Crimson friend, you didn't kind of like the characters in New Vegas, you luuuuuuurved them! ...And I've seen the video footage to prove it! :D

I knew someone would mention that.

 

Notice I said "When a game does make me feel emotion, it's given to a party member." This is probably why story-based RPG's that don't involve party members very much (or none at all) don't stick with me that well. But KOTOR did (Atton/Disciple), and Baldur's Gate (Xan, sigh...hehe). Skyrim interested me initially because it was going to have companions. But I didn't end up liking them and the game as a whole didn't capture my attention much either, so it was a wash.

 

For games like Diablo, I don't care about companions that much. They're not designed to even try to be emotionally riveting, just run and bash and loot. Altho it was fun to equip those D2 hirelings and try to keep them alive.

 

Outside of character/story, music is what most evokes emotion for me. Those awesome battles in Stronghold or other strategy games wouldn't be nearly as much fun without the great soundtracks to go with them. (edit - the main thing I like from games is exploration and tinkering, ie collecting loot, alchemy, crafts, strategy. It's a task-obsessive thing, not an emotional one)

Edited April 4, 2012 by LadyCrimson

[Tigranes]

I can see how it's different if you're already 'set in your ways' culturally - though as you admit, LC, I'd wager your affections for Boone is an interesting window into how we can latch on to the most unlikely things. I think that's the greatest strength of games providing a coherent world with rules that you can play in (and break). Just the fact that, although it's not 'historically accurate' or anything like that, you have a world that obeys its own rules, and the sum of its parts is more powerful (and thus fun).

 

Sometimes I wonder, the people that download nude mods which invariably top the popularity list for Elder Scrolls games and the like - is it for titillation? I mean, you can get a lot better pornography than that just using Google, right? And it's not like they add any adult functionality in the gameworld. An idle speculation I have is that it becomes more exciting just because it's a coherent gameworld - not that it's mistaken for the real world, but just that aliveness. Or, people are weird, I guess.

[Calax]

I think part of the issue with nudes Tig's is immersion. I know that in the two Elder Scrolls games, and the Fallouts I've played, it's kind of... jarring to me to "strip" somebody (with visible effect of having their clothes removed) but they still have their "unmentionables" hidden... particularly when the locations/settings don't lend themselves to the concept of a "bra" as existing/being available. Admittedly I don't want to see some guys junk, it just doesn't make sense to me that the woman would have anything covering her chest. Although I'd never get the mods that'd have always nude. I do admit I'd probably put one in for Dragon Age if I could find one that wasn't "your characters will look like they're wearing a dominatrix outfit AT ALL TIMES!

 

Or, conversely, it's just in a spot that flat out makes sense and has (in other markets) been entirely decensored (Indigo Prophecy and Witcher 1).

[Orogun01]

I think that immersion for this case its a facade, there is some shame in admitting to something sexual specially when it involves only yourself. Aside from nude mods; which peak the popularity because they are the basis for a lot of other sex related mods, there are very revealing armor sets based on said models and mods which depict sexual acts.

 

At its core, the gaming experience provided by free roam games like TES and FO its a world free of consequences where you can exert your will. A very appealing thought considering that games are a vicarious experience and this models plays into that. Which belies the main reason that we seek to exert our will as a species, which often involves survival which is intertwined with reproduction. Basically, we are wired to correlate survival and power with sex.

 

Disclaimer: Of course i'm sure that some people might do it for the immersion. You know, a cigar is a cigar but it's more fun to tell people that's a **** on their mouths.

[Calax]

Honestly, Carla Valenti taking a shower in her underwear is kind of jarring to me. I know it's stupid but f- it I'm gonna do things how I think they should be done were the situation "realistic" (reality altering mayan dead people not withstanding)

[Nepenthe]

Do games play any role in your exposure to or thoughts about different cultures, history, myth, religion and ritual?

No.

I think we have a potential country/education system pattern here.

[LadyCrimson]

The one time I tried a nudity mod, I ROFL and then deleted it soon after. Outside of the giggles, not for me. But I know a lot of people who love nudity/sex mods if they can get them...I couldn't explain why they want them so much, since I'm not into them. But from what I've noted, immersion definitely plays a role, I think. It's not much different from people wanting better textures for roads, eyes, objects - doesn't add to the gameplay, but it does wonders for eyeball immersion. Perhaps for some it's just curious/humorous titillation/outlet, and for others a more serious part of their game...a roleplaying thing, if you will.

 

In terms of vs. porn - I could see that some might perhaps find acting out sex in games more interesting (interactive, an environment you control/may care about) over watching the usual static porn (non-interactive).

[Rosbjerg]

I've used nude mods for all of Bethesda's games, it just feels more true in a sense for me that characters can be naked. I couldn't explain why my character having the ability to be naked is important, it just is - mostly I think because here in Denmark nudity is everywhere and the modesty in foreign games and films seems so artificial to me.