Gorth Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Start of old thread End of old thread Just for fun, BBC's coverage Casey Hudson: "This is not the last you'll hear of [main character] Commander Shepard." Alfred Tennyson on the subject: "Gone - flitted away, Taken the stars from the night and the sun From the day! Gone, and a cloud in my heart." “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
greylord Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 My buddy Oblarg may like what I'm about to post, as it actually would kind of go along with his Collectors were weak enemies idea. I thought an idea of where the entirety of ME2 was pertinent, but not in the way we think. Instead it was a test to see if Shep could accomplish a mission against impossible odds...aka...a test. I posted this at bio boards...but thought I might get more thoughtful and better responses here... NOTE...there are MANY spoilers spread throughout...skip if you don't want to read them.... This takes the idea that the Indoc Theory isn't correct, OR AT LEAST you don't have it affecting you with choices until AFTER you meet TIM at the end of ME3...OR that you are fighting Indoc and events are really occuring because of your choices, but twisted due to Indoc and your perceptions of them. What if TIM was fighting Indoc at the beginning of ME2. He KNEW he was fighting it and felt that it was something he could not, and would not win. However, he still had humanities best interest at heart (That's Humanity, with and H...he doesn't care for the alien, the heretic, the unbe...etc. Only Humanity and that it becomes better then all). He wants someone that will continue the fight and be able to not only continue it, but to continue and win that fight as he would have done had he not been Indoc, and who could win against the Reapers eventually. Perhaps that's the REAL reason he made Shepard. If I recall he didn't want a control device in Shepard...perhaps THAT'S why. Shepard HAD to be independant of TIM in order to suceed, to be able to continue the fight regardless of what happened to TIM, Cerberus, or anything that was under TIM control. Shepard was TIM contingency...or maybe even primary...plan if or when TIM fell to indoc. Maybe TIM had the idea for Reaper control all along, maybe that's really was the best answer...but TIM ALSO knew that by trying to do that there was a HUGE chance (perhaps nigh 100% chance?) that he'd be indoctrinated in it's attempt. He needed someone that could fight the entirety of TIM's resources, the Reapers, and still win it out for Earth and Humanity. Hence, he brought back Shepard, WITHOUT a control device, not purely for the suicide mission as we are told in ME2 (that would actually only be a test to see if Shepard could actually resist the Reapers and indoc in order to suceed against impossible odds), but for the future, which we see in ME3, when TIM was turned and unable to do what he had planned to do all along. THAT'S the REAL reason for Shep...and the REAL reason for what occurs in ME2 (test of Shep's abilities). Thoughts?
Gorth Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 Thoughts? I think you are trying to re-align story elements that were never meant to be coherent. If I remember one of the recent interviews/quotes, they (Bioware) pretty much told that they made it up as they went along, game for game. May have something to do with their strategy of fan pleasing, always trying to change the next game according to current feedback. Woe to them if they change from that particular pattern, as the "fans" seems to have come to expect to be spoiled rotten “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Humanoid Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Seeing that they're going all Hollywood on us, maybe it's a good idea to take the present Hollywood preoccupation with reboots to the series. Gotta be darker and edgier though, so when you land on Eden Prime, Shep takes one for the team and dies. You play Jenkins. L I E S T R O N GL I V E W R O N G
Guest The Architect Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 So let me get this straight, the Catalyst creates the Crucible to convince itself to do 3 things it couldn't think of by itself even though it designed these 3 things into the system? Hahaha.
greylord Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) So let me get this straight, the Catalyst creates the Crucible to convince itself to do 3 things it couldn't think of by itself even though it designed these 3 things into the system? Hahaha. No, actually. The Reapers connect to the citadel and from that give out a programming to it to do as they desire. So, it controls the Reapers and the Mass Relays via that method, but it's subservient to whatever programming which is enabled by the object connected to it. Instead of a Reaper connecting to it however, it has the crucible. This gives it different programming...aka...different options than what a Reaper would give it. Hence you are using the same device a Reaper would, but since the Crucible isn't a Reaper...and in fact designed by others...it has different programs/options available. That's why it's the Catalyst...not the program itself. A Catalyst only speeds up or enables a process...but that process has to already be introduced and enabled by something else. In this case, the Citadel is the Catalyst, the programming or options come either from a Reaper...or when you build a Crucible...the Crucible. Edited March 21, 2012 by greylord
Gorth Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 So let me get this straight, the Catalyst creates the Crucible to convince itself to do 3 things it couldn't think of by itself even though it designed these 3 things into the system? Hahaha. No, actually. The Reapers connect to the citadel and from that give out a programming to it to do as they desire. So, it controls the Reapers and the Mass Relays via that method, but it's subservient to whatever programming which is enabled by the object connected to it. Instead of a Reaper connecting to it however, it has the crucible. This gives it different programming...aka...different options than what a Reaper would give it. Hence you are using the same device a Reaper would, but since the Crucible isn't a Reaper...and in fact designed by others...it has different programs/options available. That's why it's the Catalyst...not the program itself. A Catalyst only speeds up or enables a process...but that process has to already be introduced and enabled by something else. In this case, the Citadel is the Catalyst, the programming or options come either from a Reaper...or when you build a Crucible...the Crucible. One of several things that never made any sense... Why would this device need cannons and javelin missiles? As I understood it, the Crucible is the lens (think looking glass and burning ants) through wich something gets focused and distributed through the relays and to all "reaperdom". The catalyst is the source of the signal which controls everything. By penetrating into The Architect/Star Child/Deus Ex Machina Personas inner sanctum, you can now control the source of the signal and chose either red, green or blue. However, at that time I was just getting bored by the constantly increasing grind you had to go through to get there, so I didn't pay too much attention beyond breathing a sigh of relief that the grind had stopped. Edit: In hindsight, the green option was really the most ludicrous option, as it can't be rationalised in any way, no matter how generous your suspension of disbelief is. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Guest The Architect Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Gorth makes a good point. Why then, did the Crucible need cannons and javelin missiles? What was that all about? As for the Citadel being the Catalyst and the Crucible changing its programming, I stand corrected. Nevertheless, the new options are utter **** that destroy the Mass Relays and royally screw all the advanced civilisations up the backside. I don
Deraldin Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Gorth makes a good point. Why then, did the Crucible need cannons and javelin missiles? What was that all about? As for the Citadel being the Catalyst and the Crucible changing its programming, I stand corrected. Nevertheless, the new options are utter **** that destroy the Mass Relays and royally screw all the advanced civilisations up the backside. I don Edited March 21, 2012 by Deraldin
Gorth Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 Gorth makes a good point. Why then, did the Crucible need cannons and javelin missiles? What was that all about? As for the Citadel being the Catalyst and the Crucible changing its programming, I stand corrected. Nevertheless, the new options are utter **** that destroy the Mass Relays and royally screw all the advanced civilisations up the backside. I don “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Giantevilhead Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I don't think people have actually considered the implications if the indoctrination "theory" was true. If everything that happened after Shepard got hit by Harbinger's beam was a hallucination, then that means in reality Harbinger would still be standing next to the beam. As soon? as Shepard beats the indoctrination, Harbinger would just vaporize him. Not to mention the fact the Citadel would not be empty like in the hallucination and instead have an army of husks stationed there.
Gorth Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 Ehh, Harbinger? Where did you see that one in the game? “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Volourn Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 "Deus Ex Machina crap " I don't think that means what you think it means. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
greylord Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 So let me get this straight, the Catalyst creates the Crucible to convince itself to do 3 things it couldn't think of by itself even though it designed these 3 things into the system? Hahaha. No, actually. The Reapers connect to the citadel and from that give out a programming to it to do as they desire. So, it controls the Reapers and the Mass Relays via that method, but it's subservient to whatever programming which is enabled by the object connected to it. Instead of a Reaper connecting to it however, it has the crucible. This gives it different programming...aka...different options than what a Reaper would give it. Hence you are using the same device a Reaper would, but since the Crucible isn't a Reaper...and in fact designed by others...it has different programs/options available. That's why it's the Catalyst...not the program itself. A Catalyst only speeds up or enables a process...but that process has to already be introduced and enabled by something else. In this case, the Citadel is the Catalyst, the programming or options come either from a Reaper...or when you build a Crucible...the Crucible. One of several things that never made any sense... Why would this device need cannons and javelin missiles? As I understood it, the Crucible is the lens (think looking glass and burning ants) through wich something gets focused and distributed through the relays and to all "reaperdom". The catalyst is the source of the signal which controls everything. By penetrating into The Architect/Star Child/Deus Ex Machina Personas inner sanctum, you can now control the source of the signal and chose either red, green or blue. However, at that time I was just getting bored by the constantly increasing grind you had to go through to get there, so I didn't pay too much attention beyond breathing a sigh of relief that the grind had stopped. Edit: In hindsight, the green option was really the most ludicrous option, as it can't be rationalised in any way, no matter how generous your suspension of disbelief is. Any weapons on the Crucible is for it's defense when flying into the middle of a space battle. They get a break when a few of the Reapers break off to engage the ground troops, but it's still going into the middle of a battle.
Calax Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) the way I see it, whoever decided to magic up the reapers, also included the Catalyst as a balancing agent. It's just that what might have been a fairly simple object, kept getting added to and added to until it's being towed around by fleets. For all we know, the only thing really needed to trigger the Citadel's anti-reaping protocols is a thumbdrive with two programs. Edited March 21, 2012 by Calax Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
Nepenthe Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Shepard being on a Reaper-trip is really the most rational explanation to the end mumbo jumbo. Shep can wake up face down in some London back alley feeling like after shore leave while swinging a predator and surrounded by Cannibals and it'd still make more sense than what took place. Was in Brussels yesterday, so couldn't reply even to stuff that was directly asked of me, and now can't quote either so... Tale, the collector stuff's been mentioned in several places, I haven't been keeping track of bio social (I doubt anyone could right now, even if they tried), so it's buried somewhere. I suppose it could be linked to the final hours documentary? Nukes were gone over at some point in detail, in fact it's described that some nuclear explosions go off when Earth is invaded, but really, this whole back and forth arguing about what makes sense and what doesn't when most people haven't read 10 % of the background material is just, well, useless. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions
HoonDing Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 The poor fools that banged Ashley in ME1 and remained faithful (lol) to her in ME2 must be pissed. She was turned into a drunken Zaeed. At least in combat she's at least as good as Garrus, and her "But you were with Cerberus!!!! I hate you!!!" shtick is pretty funny. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Giantevilhead Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) It still doesn't make any sense how the Reapers took over the Citadel and brought it to earth since it was established in the first game that the Reapers can shut down the entire Mass Relay network from the Citadel. So if they can take the Citadel so easily, why didn't they do it at the beginning of the war and then use it to shut down all the Relays? That would have prevented the entire alliance from forming. Nukes were gone over at some point in detail, in fact it's described that some nuclear explosions go off when Earth is invaded, but really, this whole back and forth arguing about what makes sense and what doesn't when most people haven't read 10 % of the background material is just, well, useless. They don't go over nukes in that much detail. All we know is that nukes were banned and the Reapers destroyed earth's old nuke silos. There's no explanation for why they didn't try to build or use nukes against the Reapers. Edited March 21, 2012 by Giantevilhead
Nepenthe Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 They don't go over nukes in that much detail. All we know is that nukes were banned and the Reapers destroyed earth's old nuke silos. There's no explanation for why they didn't try to build or use nukes against the Reapers. IIRC the population of one planet nukes themselves rather than become husks, and it does come up in some other situation I can't remember, but, fruitless. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions
Guest Slinky Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) The poor fools that banged Ashley in ME1 and remained faithful (lol) to her in ME2 must be pissed. She was turned into a drunken Zaeed. At least in combat she's at least as good as Garrus, and her "But you were with Cerberus!!!! I hate you!!!" shtick is pretty funny. The most agonizing choice in the trilogy for me was actually the virmire save the other thing. Another annoys me to hell and back with her poems and the another annoys me to hell and back by being carth. Why I couldn't blow them both to orbit? I wonder what happens if I edit my save and mark them both as dead. Also, I'd like to announce that I am a believer of the indoctrination theory. Call me desperate optimist all you want, but everything else is just too stupid to me to believe. Edited March 21, 2012 by Slinky
Nepenthe Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 The poor fools that banged Ashley in ME1 and remained faithful (lol) to her in ME2 must be pissed. She was turned into a drunken Zaeed. At least in combat she's at least as good as Garrus, and her "But you were with Cerberus!!!! I hate you!!!" shtick is pretty funny. ... But dose abs! You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions
Morgoth Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Whatever happened to Kaiden btw? I just sent him off to assist with the Crucible, never heard of him ever again. Not that this is a bad thing... Rain makes everything better.
Humanoid Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I didn't really see Kaidan to be whiny enough to fit the stereotype, indeed he was mostly anonymous. Not ideal of course but that just leaves him as a boring character instead of an annoying one which is marginally the lesser crime. Until ME2 of course when he goes all angsty, but I am told that's because there was no script prepared for the character and he just read Ashley's script word for word (haven't verified myself though). I've been trying to resume my second ME2 playthrough but it's a harder slog than I thought as an adept, just feel incredibly ineffective. I hear it's much better in ME3 so it should be worth persisting with, but I can only stand playing one mission per session before feeling burnt out. Hmm. Also noticing the plot stupidity more for obvious reasons. L I E S T R O N GL I V E W R O N G
Janmanden Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 It still doesn't make any sense how the Reapers took over the Citadel and brought it to earth since it was established in the first game that the Reapers can shut down the entire Mass Relay network from the Citadel. So if they can take the Citadel so easily, why didn't they do it at the beginning of the war and then use it to shut down all the Relays? That would have prevented the entire alliance from forming. One word, actually two, now four in total, sixteen including what I intended to say: delivery-service. (Signatures: disabled)
Janmanden Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 After banging (literally, bang-bang) readiness up to 100% I got 5 secs more of an ending, I only checked one of them, because I just can't stomach anymore non-skippable cutscenes.. I thought the only one of the choices that could lead to more would be to destroy all synthetics, but that's pretty far from a happy ending, because that means that Legions sacrifice was for nothing and it's going to break Jokers heart. Only took six hours to get there.. But at least MP is fun - sort of. (Signatures: disabled)
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