What in the name of skilfully poised ****?

[Calax]

One of the sad things about all of this is that the US acts like it has a bottomless pit of manpower it can call upon for these fights, but ends up scraping the very bottom of the barrel to get soldirs who do their term and take off.

 

I've heard it suggested that one of the reasons gangs took off in the 70's (the first major gangs anyway) was because of the returning GI's knowing how to fight/kill and having connections. These guys come back, and start teaching their neighbors how to murder people, and use the viet connections to start drugs moving all over.

 

As to the SS photo... these guys obviously weren't awake in history class. I mean that SS is a pretty stylish thing, and they were trying to create their own little community badge thing, but seriously? What's next, "We are the 33rd infantry, THE SWASTIKAS!"

[Drowsy Emperor]

And are there any comparable statistics for unsolved crimes between China and the US? Or just how many of China's judgements end in the bullet to the head that the defendants family are then charged for?

 

I think the US has more executions per year than China.

 

You can think whatever you want but the US prison system is uniquely horrible as compared to the rest of the world, not just China. As the article illustrates.

 

The reason I think are privately owned/maintained jails. Its just another business that has to keep on running, so bring all your friends with you, cos we need customers.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gfted1]

Holy crap, the stupid in this thread is about to take on sentience. I love how a thread full of people that have never served a minute in the military has become a think tank of armchair generals. Ill just address the two most ridiculous claims:

 

Because hey, how can it not be good to have an army of convicts and killers?

 

Spending almost 10 seconds Googling reveals that ANY criminal history requires a waiver from the military. No, there is no waiver for murder.

 

I think the US has more executions per year than China.

 

Another 10 second investment reveals:

 

That capital punishment in China resulted in 5000 execution in 2009 (latest numbers) while capital punishment in the US only resulted in 46 executions in 2010.

[Tale]

5000 executions in 2009? WTF, china. I thought they were part of the civilized world now.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Holy crap, the stupid in this thread is about to take on sentience. I love how a thread full of people that have never served a minute in the military has become a think tank of armchair generals. Ill just address the two most ridiculous claims:

 

Because hey, how can it not be good to have an army of convicts and killers?

 

Spending almost 10 seconds Googling reveals that ANY criminal history requires a waiver from the military. No, there is no waiver for murder.

 

I think the US has more executions per year than China.

 

Another 10 second investment reveals:

 

That capital punishment in China resulted in 5000 execution in 2009 (latest numbers) while capital punishment in the US only resulted in 46 executions in 2010.

 

Read more carefully. The first comment was obviously a sarcastic response to the preceding discussion on the merits of having gang members in the military, and them even considering such an option.

I have seen it claimed in some western documentary or other that there are people serving in the US army for a reduction in their jail time although for smaller crimes.

Although "we can't let you on the street, but we can give you a gun and ship you to Afghanistan" doesn't sound like an endorsement for the US military.

 

Okay so that was wrong. The huge discrepancy in the number of incarcerated individuals still stands. I'm not gonna claim its a bastion of democracy, I'm just pointing out that the whole: them authoritarian, us democratic, them bad, us good shtick is garbage. In comparison to average Scandinavian state both countries could be equated with fascism, in regards to most of their internal policies.

[Hurlshort]

This also started with a ridiculous assertion that the US has the largest percentage of mentally ill people in the world. While that statistic may very well be true, it is still just fun with numbers if you don't back it up with way more information. Plus the difference between a country like China and the US is in the US we actually try to treat and diagnose mental illness.

 

The criminal justice system in the US might be bloated, inefficient, and in need of major overhaul, but it's still nowhere near the horror of a place like that Honduran prison that just went up in flames.

 

It is fair to argue that there are a lot of European countries that handle crime better, but their system is not necessarily one that can be taken and transplanted into the US. You are dealing with a ton of different variables here.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I don't know about the mentally ill. Those sort of things tend to be a constant in most societies,

 

The US is not compared to third world hell holes because it has the economic predisposition to be heaven on earth, on par or even superior than most EU countries. Yet the wealth is so unfairly distributed and the social and economic system so ruthless, crime so rampant that it makes you wonder what type of society most Americans really want.

 

Not that its anybody's business to suggest to the US what they should do in their own back yard. (If only they embraced the idea too)

Edited February 15, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Hurlshort]

Yet the wealth is so unfairly distributed and the social and economic system so ruthless, crime so rampant that it makes you wonder what type of society most Americans really want.

 

I really have to wonder what sort of movies you are watching, because I have lived in the US my whole life and I have no idea what you are talking about. I've travelled extensively through the country and it's lovely and safe and filled with happy people. Are there bad neighborhoods? Sure, are there no bad neighborhoods in EU nations?

 

It is also still a country with a ton of opportunity to succeed. Despite a very bleak economic situation over the last 5 years, we still have people becoming millionaires every day (and I'm not talking lottery winners.) I have students who come from India, China, and many other countries to get an education here, many of them go on to college with scholarships and get chances that their parents never had.

 

So chill on your whole anti-US crusade

[Raithe]

One of the interesting things with Europe is how a lot of the countries have a legal system based on the Napoleonic code. And the French have a habit of talking about how rigerous their standards are compared to so many other countries. However, a lot of the European countries don't actually enforce the extent of their legal code on their citizenry.

 

Case in point, MOT's. The French love to talk about how high their standards are compared to the UK's. However, when when we stopped French Lorry Drivers and enforced our apparently "low standards of MOT" to their vehicles, a large percentage failed. Lower standards that actually get enforced, rather then high standards that aren't...

 

It's all sorts of fun and games with any legal systems.

[Malcador]

Holy crap, the stupid in this thread is about to take on sentience. I love how a thread full of people that have never served a minute in the military has become a think tank of armchair generals.

 

So, what are the other claims then ? Can't really slam the entire thread then do it half way, can you.

[Gorgon]

Isn't it just that the market for drugs and therapists is larger, and following from that more people get diagnosed. The stigma associated with mental illness might even be less pronounced, which is a good thing. In other countries recieving treatment might negatively affect career chances and so on.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Gorgon

[Walsingham]

In the US the crooks become slave labour, freeing up resources for the cops to be able to round up more slave labour.

 

Yeah, slave labour which costs about 45000 a year to maintain (not violent offenders, who cost more). Then does an unreliable menial job which a machine could do better and cheaper.

 

I don't think slaves have been an economic option outside mining for about 200 years!

[Gorth]

That has to be the worlds most heavily subsidized license plates.

[Janmanden]

Think about the children, they need someone to drill arseholes in rocking horses. That's good work. Maybe it's too revolutionary that someone who do jail time could be productive or entertained as well or actually learn something.. It's cheap to be bored, but is it productive?

[Gorgon]

In the US the crooks become slave labour, freeing up resources for the cops to be able to round up more slave labour.

 

Yeah, slave labour which costs about 45000 a year to maintain (not violent offenders, who cost more). Then does an unreliable menial job which a machine could do better and cheaper.

 

I don't think slaves have been an economic option outside mining for about 200 years!

That's just because they haven't fully learned how to maximise their earning potential. The larger number are probably unskilled, but there are doctors, lawyers, etc. How long before they start making legal briefs instead of licence plates. They are paid a few cents an hour, not working means solitary confinement for being 'uncooperative'. I suspect unions and PACs are what has kept the industry largely unskilled, rather than the lack of desire to tap this resource.

 

I mean in effect it's a bit like sending all your learned Greeks off to the salt mines.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Gorgon

[Maria Caliban]

This also started with a ridiculous assertion that the US has the largest percentage of mentally ill people in the world. While that statistic may very well be true, it is still just fun with numbers if you don't back it up with way more information.

I love how no one wants numbers until they see a claim they dislike. But they don't just want numbers, because numbers are meaningless, they want it 'backed-up.'

 

CDC: Half of Americans will suffer from mental health woes.

Mental Disorders in the USA

Nearly 20% of Americans Experiences Mental Illness in 2009

Epidemiology of Mental Illness

Mental Illnesses: Facts and Numbers

A World Health Organization study released Tuesday shows that rates of most mental illness are far higher in the U.S. than in any other country in the world.

WebMD.

 

Are there countries that were left out of the WHO report? Yes. But mental illness is high in the USA (unless the CDC, NIHM, and WHO are all talking out their butt) and there's no evidence that it's higher in other countries.

 

'Maybe it's higher in Uganda' isn't much of an argument. Can YOU provide evidence that other countries have higher rates of mental illness?

 

Plus the difference between a country like China and the US is in the US we actually try to treat and diagnose mental illness.

 

Okay, but what about countries that provide free, or inexpensive, health services? Using your logic, they'd have the highest rate of reported mentally ill people.

[Walsingham]

I can't take a claim that the US has massively worse mental health levels very seriously. But more importantly I can't see how it's relevant to the OP.

[Zoraptor]

It's certainly an explanation for deciding to stand in front of an SS banner and photograph yourself, though it would probably be a better explanation for peeing on corpses (since objectification of others is one of the main factors of numerous mental disorders like psychopathy). Moronism is probably a better explanation for both, at least the photographing part, in the absence of other evidence of mental instability though.

[Janmanden]

I saw an article a few years ago claiming that 1% of the American population was behind bars and I was thinking "Oh ****, that means 99% is still at large.."

[Gfted1]

I saw an article a few years ago claiming that 1% of the American population was behind bars and I was thinking "Oh ****, that means 99% is still at large.."

 

I debunked it then, Ill debunk it again. Although, if you include everyone "in the system" then we exceed that.

[Gorth]

I mean in effect it's a bit like sending all your learned Greeks off to the salt mines.

We should forward this message to Merkel and Sarkozy. A way to make Greeks productive...

[Nepenthe]

One of the sad things about all of this is that the US acts like it has a bottomless pit of manpower it can call upon for these fights, but ends up scraping the very bottom of the barrel to get soldirs who do their term and take off.

 

I've heard it suggested that one of the reasons gangs took off in the 70's (the first major gangs anyway) was because of the returning GI's knowing how to fight/kill and having connections. These guys come back, and start teaching their neighbors how to murder people, and use the viet connections to start drugs moving all over.

 

As to the SS photo... these guys obviously weren't awake in history class. I mean that SS is a pretty stylish thing, and they were trying to create their own little community badge thing, but seriously? What's next, "We are the 33rd infantry, THE SWASTIKAS!"

Mmyeah, it's not linked to just the 70s, and using the US as an example, (IIRC, again not in a position to check references) Hell's Angels were founded by returning WW2 veterans.

 

Holy crap, the stupid in this thread is about to take on sentience. I love how a thread full of people that have never served a minute in the military has become a think tank of armchair generals. Ill just address the two most ridiculous claims:

Thus adding your own brand of stupid to this thread. I might've just been a conscript outside a war zone, but a retarded blanket statement like that makes my rather well-suppressed temper flare up.

 

In the US the crooks become slave labour, freeing up resources for the cops to be able to round up more slave labour.

 

Yeah, slave labour which costs about 45000 a year to maintain (not violent offenders, who cost more). Then does an unreliable menial job which a machine could do better and cheaper.

 

I don't think slaves have been an economic option outside mining for about 200 years!

Meh, those people would cost the society a lot more if not incarcerated. Of course this from the liberal nordic prison systems, where you have to be a major pain in the ass to ever go near a prison.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Raithe]

On the offhand side of things.. the ratings of "mentally ill people" are probably higher in America then elsewhere.. due to several important factors.

 

Notably, they have a whole lot more shrinks at work, who "identify" these various neuroses and wotnot as mental illness.

And the customer base in America is more likely to go see a shrink and get analysed and therapy...

 

Compared to a lot of other countries.. who don't tend to try recognising personal issues as mental illness. So they don't build statistics up about them...

[Gfted1]

Thus adding your own brand of stupid to this thread. I might've just been a conscript outside a war zone, but a retarded blanket statement like that makes my rather well-suppressed temper flare up.

 

What? You hadnt replied to this thread by the time I made that post so anything I said wouldnt have included you anyway. And yes, yes, we all stand in awe of your fearsome and terrible anger. Dont look now but someobody didnt like something about ME.

[Calax]

One of the sad things about all of this is that the US acts like it has a bottomless pit of manpower it can call upon for these fights, but ends up scraping the very bottom of the barrel to get soldirs who do their term and take off.

 

I've heard it suggested that one of the reasons gangs took off in the 70's (the first major gangs anyway) was because of the returning GI's knowing how to fight/kill and having connections. These guys come back, and start teaching their neighbors how to murder people, and use the viet connections to start drugs moving all over.

 

As to the SS photo... these guys obviously weren't awake in history class. I mean that SS is a pretty stylish thing, and they were trying to create their own little community badge thing, but seriously? What's next, "We are the 33rd infantry, THE SWASTIKAS!"

Mmyeah, it's not linked to just the 70s, and using the US as an example, (IIRC, again not in a position to check references) Hell's Angels were founded by returning WW2 veterans.

Notice, I didn't say the "gangs started" I said "the gangs took off". That's a fairly significant thing, particularly considering that some of the more "traditional" gangs are like Al Capone's crew, which were most prominent in the 30's. It's just that the looser organizations like the Crips, Bloods, Mexican Mafia, Tongo Blasters, Aryan Brotherhood, or any of that around. That all started after Vietnam and the rise of the drug trade.

In the US the crooks become slave labour, freeing up resources for the cops to be able to round up more slave labour.

 

Yeah, slave labour which costs about 45000 a year to maintain (not violent offenders, who cost more). Then does an unreliable menial job which a machine could do better and cheaper.

 

I don't think slaves have been an economic option outside mining for about 200 years!

Meh, those people would cost the society a lot more if not incarcerated. Of course this from the liberal nordic prison systems, where you have to be a major pain in the ass to ever go near a prison.

Well, the Nordic system also has the lowest recitivism rate. MUCH lower than the USA's recitivism rate. Simply because they actually have the resources and will to try for rehabilitation rather than providing what is effectively a holding tank for cons of all kinds to hang out in.