Bomb and shooting in Norway

[Tale]

Here's the juicy bit from HK's second link.

Al Qaeda is always to blame, even when it isn't, even when it's allegedly the work of a Nordic, Muslim-hating, right-wing European nationalist.

Initial reports focused on the possibility of Islamic militants, in particular Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or Helpers of the Global Jihad, cited by some analysts as claiming responsibility for the attacks. American officials said the group was previously unknown and might not even exist.

[WDeranged]

If anything this guy is a product of ten to twenty years of Islamophobic hysteria and fearmongering.

[Malcador]

Also some were claiming it was Libya's revenge for NATO's bombing campaign (even Greenwald, earlier article was on why Norway would be a target, their massive involvement in ISAF and Libya). Though I doubt Gaddafi would be -that- insane to piss his opponents off even more.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Malcador

[WDeranged]

Also some were claiming it was Libya's revenge for NATO's bombing campaign (even Greenwald). Though I doubt Gaddafi would be -that- insane to piss his opponents off even more.

 

Ho ho, some people would have loved that, one bombing in the name of Ddafi Duck would magically justify the whole thing.

[Gromnir]

I can't seem to open HK's 2nd link. Southern hemisphere only? Shame because that Guardian piece was pretty cool.

 

It wouldn't have mattered. There wouldn't have been guns at a party youth convention with the PM scheduled to visit the next day, but all things being equal being armed in a crazed gunman situation is definitely preferable.

Is it? Carrying a gun and using it effectively to protect yourself in a situation like that aren't even close. As soon as the **** hits the fan, you'll probably get the shakes bad, missing all your shots -if you were lucky and your gun didn't jam straight away- and/or hit something or someone(!) else. That's assuming you weren't paralyzed by terror or just succumbed to the overwhelming impulse to GTFO.

 

People in the police and military train for that sort of stuff for years and still fail to consistently keep a cool head under fire. Regular joes do even worse, packing or not, because we lack practice handling the violent hormonal discharge. Gun-toting pedestrians may have a mild deterrent effect, and hearing shots other than his own might have made the guy pause, but all things considered, I'd rather have just one out of control gunman.

 

...

 

is one o' the first # post with which we largely agree. we did crime for the first ~2 years o' our career. read police reports reveals that tv is much misleading. is scary how many times an officer shoots 4-6 times at an armed person and miss +80%... and we is talking 'bout distances less than 15'. not matter if we is talking state, local or fed cops neither. perhaps swat and other groups fare better, but we didn't see many o' those.

 

advice: buy a lousiville slugger and keep it by your nightstand if you is genuine wanting reliable in-home defense... or better yet, get a big dog. *chuckle* we also has seen defendants after they were pacified by a k-9 unit. am betting that most all such doggie chew toys would rather have been shot.

 

aside

 

people want to believe that terrorist organizations is responsible. as wackt as it sounds, blame terrorists is actually reassuring compared to the lone gunman scenario. governments can track and defend against terrorist groups, and terrorist groups has patterns o' behavior and agendas that makes their actions much more predictable than the lone gunman. one guy is disturbing. the knowledge that any one person with a little free time and the right/wrong mindset could be blowing up buildings and gunning down kids is... shocking. in a free society it is near impossible to defend 'gainst some person who wishes to create mayhem and does not care if they is caught or killed.

 

any one guy.

 

ps gun wielding defendants is far more likely to be shot during a crime... and they is ridiculously more likely to be injured in accidents involving their own firearm.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Gromnir

[WDeranged]

people want to believe that terrorist organizations is responsible. as wackt as it sounds, blame terrorists is actually reassuring compared to the lone gunman scenario. governments can track and defend against terrorist groups, and terrorist groups has patterns o' behavior and agendas that makes their actions much more predictable than the lone gunman. one guy is disturbing. the knowledge that any one person with a little free time and the right/wrong mindset could be blowing up buildings and gunning down kids is... disturbing. in a free society it is near impossible to defend 'gainst some person who wishes to create mayhem and does not care if they is caught or killed.

 

any one guy.

 

This is spot on, it's one of the reasons our never ending quest for a security is a racket, you'll never stop severely pissed off individuals from doing terrible things.

[Tale]

Yeah, there are still people out there hoping to find a group behind this.

My strong hunch is that there must be a substantial group which participated in this conspiracy. One man doesn?t make and plant two bombs and then travel to an island and kill 70 people alone.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_ol...through-norway/

[Gorgon]

Well, you would still have a chance, rather than be target practice. However poor your marksman skills.

[Gromnir]

blame on muslim terrorist is additional comforting 'cause is Them... is cultural, religious and even physical differences from the average euro or american. makes more sense when is one of Them who is responsible.

[WDeranged]

Well, you would still have a chance, rather than be target practice. However poor your marksman skills.

 

Yeah, given the situation, regardless of my chances I'd much rather have a method of defence.

[Volourn]

I like how some people prefer to be defenseless victims no matter the scenario and wouldn't mind at all if only criminals had access to weaponry. L0LZ

[Zoraptor]

Well at the time they didn't know how many were there - if there was more explosives, etc. I'm sure some of the cops would have wanted to go, but I also understand the highher ups wanting an experienced team on the ground.

There was also (presuming the specialist teams wear different gear from default police) the issue of having a bunch of uniformed police running around chasing someone who was also wearing a police uniform. The potential for friendly fire either from other police or from the specialists when they turned up would be very high under those circumstances. And I'd guess that if someone in a police uniform had been shooting at me (and apparently gathering groups around him under the pretense of protecting them) I'd not be quick to trust anyone wearing that uniform in the immediate aftermath.

[Rosbjerg]

I read yesterday, that it took an hour for them, from when they got the call to they had a team on the island - I think that's a pretty quick reaction. Some are saying that it was too slow - but what are they expecting, that police officers can teleport?

[Walsingham]

I can't think of many law enforcement organisations which would send officers directly into an island which contains at least one armed man equipped with automatic weapons and grenades without mustering and trying to get a brief on layout and survivors first. If anything one hour is quite fast!

 

And can I throw in my ten pennorth and observe that you all sound hysterical about the anti-muslim thing? This attack was planned using jihadi principles, and executed in a manner consistent with jihadi MO. There's no juicy conspiracy involved in blaming muslims any more than if a 2 tonne carbomb goes off at Castlereagh everyone blames the IRA rather than the 'Knights Templar'.

 

As I say, the fact that all sorts of groups and ideologies are turning to terrorism is because for the last ten years we've seen terrorism actually achieving its aims of affecting democratic states. Combined with the baseline narrative that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" how could terrorism get anything other than worse, and used by more people?

[Tale]

This attack was planned using jihadi principles

This is the problem, Wals. It wasn't using jihadi principles. It was using general terrorist attack principles. Heck, the kids at Columbine planned a very similar thing, only their bombs didn't go off.

 

It's the misattribution that all terrorist strategies for attacking civilian populaces are automatically jihad-based.

 

It's as jihadi as the Bath School disaster of 1927. Which included a fire, an initial explosion, then a follow-up suicide attack on rescuers. Well before anyone in the US cared about jihadi terrorists.

[Malcador]

The initial belief that it was some Islamic terrorist group does make sense, bomb attack on government offices in a Western country, seems sensible to assume that. Heh, was funny to see some guy on the BBC from the US talking about how this bore the hallmarks of Al Qaeda just based on knowing they set off a car bomb.

[Rosbjerg]

Glen Beck is a sorry excuse for a human being... "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing." he said in a radio broadcast..

[Nepenthe]

I can't think of many law enforcement organisations which would send officers directly into an island which contains at least one armed man equipped with automatic weapons and grenades without mustering and trying to get a brief on layout and survivors first. If anything one hour is quite fast!

 

And can I throw in my ten pennorth and observe that you all sound hysterical about the anti-muslim thing? This attack was planned using jihadi principles, and executed in a manner consistent with jihadi MO. There's no juicy conspiracy involved in blaming muslims any more than if a 2 tonne carbomb goes off at Castlereagh everyone blames the IRA rather than the 'Knights Templar'.

It's the accepted SWPL reaction. Maybe joined by a big full-page news item about the lesbian couple who were helping survivors on the beach.

 

Considering the rather recent Islamist bombing in Stockholm, Norway's presence in some of the NATO ops etc., it was a pretty decent theory, at least. Certainly when several jihadists claimed initially responsibility for the act, one can at least posit that it wasn't something they found contrary to their goals...

[Malcador]

Glen Beck is a sorry excuse for a human being... "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing." he said in a radio broadcast..

 

Eh is a bit weird to me, my high school was so up the Tories' ass it wasn't funny and we had a rally where the party leader at the time visited Still Beck deserves to have his throat cut on live TV, waste of flesh.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Berivik (if that's the way his name is spelled) is the result of multiculturalist dogma that doesn't allow an inch for the expression of other ideas and concerns and ignores the fact that there are many people who do not agree with it.

They feel disenfranchised and alienated which, inevitably results in choosing methods outside of traditional politics to make their views known.

 

Upon skimming through the manifest I can say for certain that the man was in no way insane, given the meticulous level of planning, education etc. the document shows.

I’ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were

spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working

full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally

cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500

Euros for loss of income during three years).

What he was is, is very, very angry - to the point of perceiving the entire political structure of Norway as traitorous and from there its just a short step to justifying to himself what he did. This is not a "lone psycho" thing, this is a classic act of pre-planned politically motivated terrorism.

 

He is the first, but only a fool would think that this is the end of it.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Rostere]

White, unemployed, no substantial education. Typical right-wing extremist.

[Drowsy Emperor]

White, unemployed, no substantial education. Typical right-wing extremist.

 

Incorrect.

I?ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were

spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working

full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally

cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500

Euros for loss of income during three years). All that, however, is barely noticeable

compared to the sacrifices made in relation to the distribution of this book, the actual

marketing operation

 

Self employed upper middle class and extremely educated.

[obyknven]

White, unemployed, no substantial education. Typical right-wing extremist.

True nationalists don't kill children of their own nation, even if someone tries to brainwash them, like AUF did. They were not (yet) Marxist extremists; they were just children.

[Gromnir]

White, unemployed, no substantial education. Typical right-wing extremist.

 

Incorrect.

I?ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were

spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working

full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally

cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500

Euros for loss of income during three years). All that, however, is barely noticeable

compared to the sacrifices made in relation to the distribution of this book, the actual

marketing operation

 

Self employed upper middle class and extremely educated.

 

the 32 year old man with no formal education beyond high school, lives with his mother (didn't move out til he were 30... and then moved back home) and had a business go bankrupt is... what? perhaps your definitions is different than ours. you not need formal education to be educated, but access to a search engine or a book o' quotations is no substitute for traditional university rigour. so far we see no evidence that the slaughterer o' norwegian children is educated. as for being self-employed... well, am guessing that may be technical correct... on some level. is "amateur bomb maker" a profession?

 

nevertheless, we will concede that it is too early to dismiss the izod bedecked momma's boy as insane. is far too convenient to label a person insane just 'cause they does something violent and stoopid... and pen a rambling manifesto. for the time being, Gromnir is gonna stick with Pathetic and Monstrous as our labels dujour.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps damn. we forgot to include Cowardly. purposefully target children? yeah, that is cowardice. Pathetic. Monstrous. Cowardly.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Gromnir

[Drowsy Emperor]

White, unemployed, no substantial education. Typical right-wing extremist.

 

Incorrect.

I?ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were

spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working

full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally

cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500

Euros for loss of income during three years). All that, however, is barely noticeable

compared to the sacrifices made in relation to the distribution of this book, the actual

marketing operation

 

Self employed upper middle class and extremely educated.

 

the 32 year old man with no formal education beyond high school, lives with his mother (didn't move out til he were 30... and then moved back home) and had a business go bankrupt is... what? perhaps your definitions is different than ours. you not need formal education to be educated, but access to a search engine or a book o' quotations is no substitute for traditional university rigour. so far we see no evidence that the slaughterer o' norwegian children is educated. as for being self-employed... well, am guessing that may be technical correct... on some level. is "amateur bomb maker" a profession?

 

nevertheless, we will concede that it is too early to dismiss the izod bedecked momma's boy as insane. is far too convenient to label a person insane just 'cause they does something violent and stoopid... and pen a rambling manifesto. for the time being, Gromnir is gonna stick with Pathetic and Monstrous as our labels dujour.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps damn. we forgot to include Cowardly. purposefully target children? yeah, that is cowardice. Pathetic. Monstrous. Cowardly.

 

Here's the manifest so you can judge his educational level, or lack of it for yourself. His knowledge of the topics at hand does not seem to be based on quotations, but on lengthy research and I recognize many of the books on political theory he mentions. In that set of topics, I can say he has a good grasp of the material, regardless of the conclusions he draws from it.

 

http://www.kevinislaughter.com/wp-content/...ndependence.pdf

 

Cowardly? I'm not so sure. He did ask, and expect the death penalty for himself. This could be hypocrisy since he's not going to get it in Norway, but it does not suggest he picked the targets for lack of "harder" ones but because what he did would cause the maximum amount of pain. As someone who sees himself a "martyr", and has in advance "given up his life" he really could have struck anywhere and at anyone - therefore his choice of targets speaks to intent, not courage.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor