Significant Player Characters

[Calax]

Ok, bare with me on this because this may be long.

 

In many RPG's you don't really play a very significant character. Sure you BECOME significant but you're always Jonny Bootstrap who just happened to find whatever it is that gives him power or makes him a threat to those in power. I have to question WHY. Is it because they don't want to have to justify why they don't just pop open a royal armory and give you the most powerful jibbles off the bat? That seems fairly easy to get around.

 

I've only seen (or at least am only able to remember at the time of this writing) one game where the character was of obvious significance. Suikoden V, yes, it's a JRPG but it actually pulls off the significant character pretty well. Basically you're the prince of a Matriarchal Kingdom, meaning that politically you're only somebody to be wed, while your little sister will become monarch. One of the first things you do is actually go on a state visit (complete with bodyguards) to a site where your Mother put down a rebellion (by basically hitting them with the magical equivalent of a tactical nuclear strike). It sets up the significance of your player character, and the fact you're a known public figure, right off the bat and gives a fairly good reason you're not getting the best stuff. You're just barely 17, and you've got a burly bodyguard for most of the prologue (meaning the first 15 hours, I'm NOT kidding) who mops the floor with any threat. At the end of the prologue there's a Coup where you're smuggled out of the capital city by the royal guards and end up running to various towns until finally finding a merchant floatillia that takes you in and becomes the core of a troupe of rebels under your command. Things snowball and soon there's a full on civil war occurring.

 

I have yet to see another RPG even TRY to do that (ok, Fable three, but I haven't played it yet so I don't know if they actually put any real force behind "You're a royal!"), instead you're always chosen by the gods, or the magic sword, or the special thingy that throws every bit of information into your head it can, or whatever. If you ever get into a situation where it's suggested that you might not be who you say you are, they ALWAYS assume you're not.

 

Yes, ME2 did have a sort of "I recognize you" bit to it, but half of that was negated by "Well, records say you're dead! IMPOSTER!" and the other half was negated by Bioware slamming their finger down on the "reset" button so hard it broke, that everything that FELT like it should have a massive impact, was instead of negligible importance. Yes, in every RPG known to man the villain knows who/what you are and understands your significance and tries to shut you down, but does the layman or the "good" authority figures know/understand this?

 

I mean, imagine if in NWN2, instead of getting your keep and then building it up for the battle without it being mentioned by anyone else, you built the keep but also had to deal with a civic duty or two. Maybe have to designate party members or other significant npc's to the roles required, like captain of the watch. And you also have to arbitrate a few disputes for alignment (if you HAVE to), and deal with nearby lords in order to keep roads safe etc. Make it feel like you're ACTUALLY the lord of the keep, not just some guy who happens to have a keep in his name.

 

It is sort of silly when you think about it, "I am Count Draaga! I have smited the Demons of the Tower of Doom, defenestrated the Lords of Darkness at Zombie Keep, and am Master of Fortress Morgor! And now I shall find your pet bun-bun and take it to your grand daughter as a birthday gift (in my spiky armor drenched in blood with the head of my enemies on the shoulder spikes) so that she may give me a marble that will imprison the demon that is threatening this world!"

[Hurlshort]

Technically you are a pretty dang powerful Sith lord in KotOR, even though you don't know it at the start.

 

Personally I really enjoy the whole path from the gutter to greatness story.

[Hell Kitty]

Not an RPG, but apparently in Saint's Row 3 you start out at the top after having spent the previous game working your way there, but then they are also changing locations so you get to defeat a bunch of factions and gain control of the city, just like the previous game. Hopfully starting out at the top won't simply be the same as starting out at the bottom but with a few upgrades.

 

Also, it bugged the hell out of me in HL2 that people acted like Freeman was such a huge deal, but treated him like an errand boy.

[Calax]

Well, Gutter to greatness can work, but when it's always gutter or "Yes-you're-famous-now-get-me-more-pig-gristle" to greatness (with everyone still treating you as little more than a peasant) it gets old. I suppose if you wanted to do gutter to greatness but still wanted to give that sense that the player is there (or at least on their way), you could set it up so they start in the gutter but by the time the world really opens up they are well known and recognized by the world.

[Orogun01]

Basic Hero's journey, the hero must always start from an afflicted position so that he/she is more relatable to the viewer. Such as the case which you present, despite your hero being a prince he begins his quest from a secondary role (he is our equivalent of a princess[ and looks like one too]). Since all stories; specially those relating to heroes, are a variation of the monomyth they have that in common.

[Slowtrain]

If you all ready super awesome great at the start, where do you go from there?

 

Besides, for me it's the process of becoming great that is interesting. Being great is actually pretty boring and usually about the time I start a new character.

[Calax]

Basic Hero's journey, the hero must always start from an afflicted position so that he/she is more relatable to the viewer. Such as the case which you present, despite your hero being a prince he begins his quest from a secondary role (he is our equivalent of a princess[ and looks like one too]). Since all stories; specially those relating to heroes, are a variation of the monomyth they have that in common.

Which is sort of the point. While he's not super powerful hero of the land who chews nails, craps lightning and burps stars, he's still somebody who has a significant presence within the land. Shepard in ME2 COULD have been the same if everything he/she ever did didn't end up being pushed into obscurity, and people not really giving the player much more than a patronizing look and a small discount for past achievements.

 

The Prince in Suikoden is a member of the Royal Family and thus actually has to tend to affairs of state. It'd be like Shepard attending a "Shepard's day" festival and riding on a float with a massive statue of himself behind him waving. It also helps that part of the princes character (as being a prince) actually comes back to establish the main conflict (he's the displaced royal who's heading a rebellion to retake the throne for his sister). Admittedly this might be a part of Bio's infatuation with giving the players such a blank slate you could copy paste the character of a CAT onto their protagonist and still have it work. The fact remains that the player is important, not from simply having importance pushed upon them by circumstance, but by having it be a burden that they wear from birth.

 

I know that Yahtzee made the point in his Conan review in that not everyone can be the chosen one or the special one, which is completely true of MMO's btw (and life if you wanna get down to it). But I think that it'd be fair for an RPG to have somebody be special, not by having mystical doohicky jammed through their chest or whatever, but simply by the fact that they born with that (which can be a curse and a gift). People get born with gifts and burdens all the time, I got born with serious levels of ADD and bipolar, both of which can be used positively in different ways if you know how to do it (I don't).

 

And Slowtrain, you don't have to be super awesome. In Suikoden they made it obvious that for the first part of the game you were just a functionary replacement for the presence of your mother in diplomatic/political situations. You were absolutely PATHETIC in terms of strength, and thus one of your bodyguards (Georg) ended up just mopping the floors with everyone (I think you started literally at level 1, and Georg was trooping around at level 25ish). Later, after you'd fought three major battles and made at least 1 rescue attempt for your sister, you were on his level simply because you had to fight so much you were forced to learn how.

 

Edit: I feel I should also point out that Suikoden also is a sort of gutter-to-greatness story. It's just instead of going from pennyless to powerhouse, you go from impotent politically and militarily to the dominant force in both arenas.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Calax

[Orogun01]

Look at it from a developmental standpoint, this route is used a lot because it allows the player a wide learning curve. Mechanics are presented step by step without confusing the player, as well as connecting him/her to the growth of the character.

 

A great example of what you are looking for it's Ezio in Brotherhood, you start with all the skills that you gained in the previous game and even through the end of the tutorial when you lose them you are still a badass master assasin.

[HoonDing]

In Summoner 2, the main character is a Queen + incarnation of a goddess.

 

In the Witcher, Geralt is a living legend even though he remembers nothing of his past deeds.

 

In the HoMM series, all heroes are pretty important figures for their respective factions.

[LadyCrimson]

If you all ready super awesome great at the start, where do you go from there?

 

Besides, for me it's the process of becoming great that is interesting. Being great is actually pretty boring and usually about the time I start a new character.

This for me as well.

I do get kind of bored of the 'peasant to The One' concept if the game is too by the numbers...not just in games, but in movies and books too. In the latter two things tho, you can have more variations/go against the grain and have it work, because we are the observer. In a game, most expect some kind of reward or achievement system for forward motivation. in RPG's, it's level ups, items, ever more powerful skills & exploration etc. Adventure or strategy games are usually where I see heroes that are off the beaten path more often, because they're not using character building reward systems.

 

This isn't to say that I think RPG's can't (or don't) ever do something that feels different. They could and they occasionally do. But if you don't change the 'powering up' chr. building process as well, imo it generally amounts to the same thing. You have a hero (whatever their starting rank) who needs a whole lot of "experience" and learning before they're powerful enough (or in a political position, or whatever) to take on the baddies and win the game. Otherwise you're Caesar at the start and you'd send out all your armies and commanders to fight & explore for you...while your concern would be how to fund/supply & grow the army & keep rebellions down...which starts falling into the strategy realm maybe.

Edited April 12, 2011 by LadyCrimson

[Humanoid]

The Avatar is an obvious one in every edition of Ultima after U4, excluding U8.

[Gfted1]

In Summoner 2, the main character is a Queen + incarnation of a goddess.

 

In the Witcher, Geralt is a living legend even though he remembers nothing of his past deeds.

 

In the HoMM series, all heroes are pretty important figures for their respective factions.

 

In the BG series youre a demigod.

[Calax]

In Summoner 2, the main character is a Queen + incarnation of a goddess.

 

In the Witcher, Geralt is a living legend even though he remembers nothing of his past deeds.

 

In the HoMM series, all heroes are pretty important figures for their respective factions.

Of these I've only played the Witcher, but here's the thing:

 

How do these significantly effect the gameplay? How would the game make you FEEL like you're a queen/goddess or whatever? I will give you Geralt however.

[Labadal]

Darksiders. You play as one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

FFX. Tidus isn't your average blitzball star. His role in the game gets clearer as you continue through the story.

[Orogun01]

If you guys are going to keep quoting Japanese RPGs as examples we may as well link to a list. I mean in every JRPG you are the scion of some dynasty, an ancient power runs trough your veins, or aren't quite human.

[Calax]

Except not.

 

On reflection I think what it comes down to for me is this:

 

The main character, his actions, his party, everything, IS the driving force behind the major conflict of the game. It's not "I am an agent of a higher power" or anything. THEY are the reason that the entire conflict exists in the first place, and thus the world has to recognize this fact.

 

In ME you're the secret agent who is operating on your own against the powers of darkness, but you're still ultimately somebodies tool. And then most of what you did is promptly rendered minimal (at best) by the actions of those who you worked for.

 

You always represent something greater and you always end up answering to somebody. The prince in Suikoden is the ultimate authority within his army. The game gets around the whole "well, crap, we have to keep them on a single line!" thing, by basically having the general still lead, but it's all understood to be in YOUR service rather than the other way around.

[Rosbjerg]

So basically you'd like a game where no-one tells you what to do ..

[Majek]

What about Kain in Legacy of Kain series? The first game was kind of rpg.

[Orogun01]

What about Kain in Legacy of Kain series? The first game was kind of rpg.

He was an antagonist on that game.

[Calax]

So basically you'd like a game where no-one tells you what to do ..

Sort of. I suppose it'd be better to put it as "A game where you have no superior". Would this work in most RPGs? Eeehhhhhh... I don't know. I do find it interesting just how much of this is left un-explored in favor of you being a rags-to-riches sort of protagonist.

 

And honestly, with how it's often handled (particularly in the land of sequels) it doesn't feel like the player character is significant (which is the point of this thread). Yes the world shattering consequences may center around your character, and indeed you may be the slaughter-god of the world, but most everyone you run into doesn't even try to take you seriously, at least until you've turned half their minions into a bloody pulp (assuming we're talking about an enemy). Even then they still say "Well, I'm more powerful than my minions! HIYAH!"

 

In suikoden you felt like a major force because A) you were the center of the conflict of nations B) you were leading the rebellion and you were treated as such (with deference due to your military and political power, just like how previously they treated you like a royal) and C) The base mechanic they implemented had you hunting down NPCs to play blacksmiths and shop keepers etc, but instead of just being there to run a business, they're there to help equip your military force and charge you for upgrading your equipment etc so they can continue to get equipment for your army.

 

In anything else, there is no secondary "Helping your fight" motivation to any of the shopkeepers or functionaries at your base. They only care about their one particular function/shop.

[Labadal]

Play the Overlord games.

[HoonDing]

Or Black & White and Dungeon Keeper.

[greylord]

I know you mentioned it already, but I still think ME starts with the hero. In ME you are already a hero which many already know. Sure, you get elevated to spetre status, but you are already a Commander AND a legendary hero. It continues even more in ME2. I feel that you have that effect already even if you feel differently.

 

IN BG2 it's sort of halfway...I mean you are someone who is actually being hunted because of who they are already.

 

In a few of the FF games you are already someone of reknown...either hero or villain with a reputation to match (FFIV anyone?)

[Calax]

Here's the thing with ME, they keep saying you're this big hero, of great power and respected.... but a good third to half of the game is spent proving to various forces that it's bigger than they think (or that the conflict exists at all).

 

Shepard, as a character, carries no weight within the game world. He's paid lip service but when it comes down to brass tacks he's just an ordinary guy who happens to have N7 slapped on his chest.

 

In ME2 this becomes even more egregious in that Bioware had to make it so that just about every variable could be recounted, and thus almost all the decisions and events from the first game are basically negated. The conflict that was such a massive thing (the reapers) was swept entirely under the rug. Even after you saved the universe, you still ended up feeling like you didn't really get any credit for it.

[Orogun01]

Here's the thing with ME, they keep saying you're this big hero, of great power and respected.... but a good third to half of the game is spent proving to various forces that it's bigger than they think (or that the conflict exists at all).

 

Shepard, as a character, carries no weight within the game world. He's paid lip service but when it comes down to brass tacks he's just an ordinary guy who happens to have N7 slapped on his chest.

 

In ME2 this becomes even more egregious in that Bioware had to make it so that just about every variable could be recounted, and thus almost all the decisions and events from the first game are basically negated. The conflict that was such a massive thing (the reapers) was swept entirely under the rug. Even after you saved the universe, you still ended up feeling like you didn't really get any credit for it.

So you wanted Shepard to be a gun toting council member who goes after the reapers when Anderson says "I had a vision of destruction..." ?