Dragon Age 2

[Magnum Opus]

Woo just went gold!

Will assume you meant the game, rather than Stan.

 

Tho... if Stan, post pics.

[Calax]

YAY! GOLD

[Serrano]

Aargh, gold!

[alanschu]

why nebulous? why should it be a mystery figuring out how much impact cunning has on rogue efficacy in combat?

 

It is probably somewhat nebulous because the GUI would start to get loaded with a lot of information. I increased my magic score by 6 and saw one spell go up by 19 points of damage, another go up by 14 points, while another went up by 4. Adding the coefficients for stuff like this to the GUI starts to bog the users down with TMI. Some of the stats like attack and defense also do not scale linearly. The marginal increase derived from incrementing one attribute point increases as you focus more points into your primary combat attribute. I suspect at lower magic scores, increasing my magic score by 6 could very well have smaller increases in the damage of those spells.

 

At the same time, cunning, for example has a clearly marked derived stat of Critical Damage, and when you allocate points to it you can see that it is increasing how much bonus damage your critical strikes do, as well as your character's defense score. Same with your other primary attributes showing the specific increase in health, damage (with DPS), defense (with percentage), attack (with percentage)

 

 

This solution won't be ideal for all, but no solution would be. The improvement, at least, is that you can see the damage values of your abilities, on top of other effects that are applied (stuns, slows, class combo effects, and so forth) in the description of your abilities now.

Edited February 11, 2011 by alanschu

[WDeranged]

Always believe in your soul, you've got the power to know, you're indestructible?

[HoonDing]

which makes me wonder, will we ever see another Dune game? (a good one)

All Dune games (all five of them) are good.

[sorophx]

All Dune games (all five of them) are good.

original, the battle for arrakis, 2000, the 3-D sequel to 2000... which one's the fifth?

[HoonDing]

All Dune games (all five of them) are good.

original, the battle for arrakis, 2000, the 3-D sequel to 2000... which one's the fifth?

"Frank Herbert's Dune", second Dune game from Cryo Interactive.

[sorophx]

wow, just... wow. looked it up on YouTube, I can't believe such a game actually got released. what about it was good exactly?

[entrerix]

i didnt even realize there were dune games other than the old rts.

 

and yeah i'd like to see a new rts dune game, make it halfway between the styles of starcraft/2 and company of heroes and im a happy player. even better? Total War: Arrakis.

 

im also still holding out for a Total War: Star Wars too, (yes i know there are mods, i mean a full fledged full featured game complete with awesome starship battles akin to the naval battles of Empire but in space and moar)

[sorophx]

make it Homeworld: Star Wars then.

[Gromnir]

why nebulous? why should it be a mystery figuring out how much impact cunning has on rogue efficacy in combat?

 

It is probably somewhat nebulous because the GUI would start to get loaded with a lot of information. I increased my magic score by 6 and saw one spell go up by 19 points of damage, another go up by 14 points, while another went up by 4. Adding the coefficients for stuff like this to the GUI starts to bog the users down with TMI. Some of the stats like attack and defense also do not scale linearly. The marginal increase derived from incrementing one attribute point increases as you focus more points into your primary combat attribute. I suspect at lower magic scores, increasing my magic score by 6 could very well have smaller increases in the damage of those spells.

 

At the same time, cunning, for example has a clearly marked derived stat of Critical Damage, and when you allocate points to it you can see that it is increasing how much bonus damage your critical strikes do, as well as your character's defense score. Same with your other primary attributes showing the specific increase in health, damage (with DPS), defense (with percentage), attack (with percentage)

 

 

This solution won't be ideal for all, but no solution would be. The improvement, at least, is that you can see the damage values of your abilities, on top of other effects that are applied (stuns, slows, class combo effects, and so forth) in the description of your abilities now.

 

eh? who said you gotta add to the gui... though if tmi is your genuine concern, then you simply got a box check for those who wish v. those who don't. in any event, "tmi" excuse sounds a bit patronizing, no? the Average Gamer simply cannot handle all that information? *snort* bioware made a less than elegant system, which ain't a genuine problem in a Crpg. when a computer can does all the number crunching instantly, you don't need to have the mechanics be intuitive and simple. that being said, there still ain't no reason to keep the mechanics hidden from the gamer. worst case scenario: put a nice and confusing chart in your pdf manual... or whatever. the thing is, Gromnir gots no freaking idea what is the relative pay-off for 1 point o' cunning v. 1 point o' dex, which SHOULD be sacrilege in a rpg.

 

"This solution won't be ideal for all, but no solution would be."

 

...

 

next time your boss asks you to find a way to accomplish task/job X, tell him that you can't, 'cause no solution would be ideal for everybody. am curious to hear what response you get.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tale]

http://www.livestream.com/electronicarts/v...medium=ui-thumb

 

This is the livestream they had. I'm really liking what I see. And it confirms that fading buffs is just so you don't look like a 'disco ball' outside of combat.

 

Edit: lol at the blood stains. People chatting it up covered in gore, still as awkward as ever.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Tale

[Thorton_AP]

next time your boss asks you to find a way to accomplish task/job X, tell him that you can't, 'cause no solution would be ideal for everybody. am curious to hear what response you get.

 

I'm pretty sure BioWare is already well aware that no solution to anything is going to be ideal for everyone lol.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Thorton_AP

[alanschu]

the thing is, Gromnir gots no freaking idea what is the relative pay-off for 1 point o' cunning v. 1 point o' dex, which SHOULD be sacrilege in a rpg.

 

You do have a relative idea. As a mage you can put a point into Magic, and you can see that your attack score increases, as well as the damage your standard magic attack. You can also go to your spells and see that the damage of your spells has also increased.

 

I think that you are hoping that the rules for this game would line up very nicely with the rulesets of games such as pen and paper RPGs where progression tends to have much more discrete stepping due to the fact that, as you allude to, there is no computer able to instantly calculate the numbers for you. I'll agree with you that it should be sacrilege in a P&P RPG when the players themselves are adjudicating the rules systems. If you do find yourself struggling for where to allocate your attribute points

 

 

who said you gotta add to the gui...

 

Adding to the GUI is the easiest way to have the information be accurate. We've all experienced manuals that are inaccurate at print. The manual is actually locked down before the game goes into cert because of turnover for translation and editing.

 

 

though if tmi is your genuine concern, then you simply got a box check for those who wish v. those who don't.

 

Ah yes, the simple check box. It's the solution to almost every issue people have with many games.

 

 

in any event, "tmi" excuse sounds a bit patronizing, no? the Average Gamer simply cannot handle all that information?

 

Eh, if people think it's patronizing I suspect it's either because they're making assumptions about software development, or they are looking for it to be patronizing. Or some combination thereof. My comment wasn't intended to be, though I suspect those that think I am being patronizing will continue to believe so irrespective of what I say. It wouldn't be a trivial amount of tables, given the amount of spells/abilities existing in the game and how high attribute scores will be, and displaying mathematical formulas would not be an ideal solution either. If resources such as computer memory, as well as time, were more infinite, I'm sure there's a lot more that game devs in general could do for their games.

 

 

 

next time your boss asks you to find a way to accomplish task/job X, tell him that you can't, 'cause no solution would be ideal for everybody. am curious to hear what response you get.

 

Huh?

[Tigranes]

Sorry alanschu, but I don't think the reasons you provide are very good and I don't think they actually rule out providing information.

 

(1) You do get some information, but as you say it's all relative, it's scattered, you have no way of viewing it up before you click the button, and you don't have anywhere you can go to look at the numbers laid out properly and plan out your character. So the information currently provided doesn't address the issue.

 

(2) Of course GUIs are the best way, but not providing the info in a manual or anywhere else because you can't fit it in the GUI? Makes zero sense. Not putting it in the manual because manuals can be inaccurate in print? Makes even less sense. O_o That's not a reason to leave it out, this isn't a MMO where the numbers change every month, either.

 

That said, I can't quite remember how much/little info you got in DAO, so I don't know if DA2 does the same, and if that will be enough. It's not a gamebreaker, but I just think it's silly not to provide that kind of information in any RPG.

[Enoch]

next time your boss asks you to find a way to accomplish task/job X, tell him that you can't, 'cause no solution would be ideal for everybody. am curious to hear what response you get.

 

Huh?

I think Gromnir's point here is that saying that "no solution is ideal" is an easy excuse that people use to get out of doing the work to come up with a better solution than currently exists. The obvious boss retort is "that may be true, but it's your job to try."

Edited February 14, 2011 by Enoch

[alanschu]

I'm still not sure how that pertains, because we did provide a better solution than currently existed in DAO.

 

I won't dispute that my statement was a statement of the obvious. But sometimes it just needs to be said it seems. The reason why I said it was because we did improve the system. Obviously not to Gromnir or Tigranes' liking, but in that regard, the solution that we came up with is not good for everyone.

Edited February 14, 2011 by alanschu

[Gromnir]

though if tmi is your genuine concern, then you simply got a box check for those who wish v. those who don't.

 

Ah yes, the simple check box. It's the solution to almost every issue people have with many games.

 

 

 

 

others have already addressed multiple aspects o' the aforementioned post regarding lack o' transparency... and alan's seeming lack o' comprehension. nevertheless, we will take a moment and note that IF as you suggested tmi were the major stumbling block, then yes, check-box solution is a very simple and straightforward solution. the fact that it is simple and straightforward is why alan has no doubt seen its like before now. again, if tmi is the issue, then a box check is ideal 'cause the overwhelmed gamer may save themselves the agony o' their synapses being fried by all that terrible data, whereas the folks who is merely whelmed may choose to wallow in their informational nirvana. dismissing the solution 'cause it is common?

 

look, we get that unlike a pnp system the da rules is far less elegant and simple, but that is no reason to be keeping the rules obfuscated. perhaps a considerable % o' people will be happy to blissfully throw points into skills, abilities and powhaz w/o having a genuine notion o' the relative value o' the points, but am suspecting that more than a handful would like to know how your rules works. those ubiquitous dps threads at the bio boards (albeit not near as popular as the romance threads) should suggest to the developers that a goodly number o' peoples would like to understand the nuts and bolts o' the system, no matter how messy the system is.

 

but hey, there is no ideal solution so obviously it ain't worth trying to come up with a solution, right?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps as bio provided essentially 0 transparency beyond actual damage numbers for da:o, any additional information would be an improvement. am not certain why we should be thankful just 'cause bio chose to make an incremental improvement, especially when alan already noted that the da2 solution will not provide anything approximating an accurate picture o' how those damage numbers is actual generated.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Gromnir

[Tigranes]

Meh, in the end, devs always do make that kind of decision about what information to leave in, and what information to leave out, and they can't make tickboxes for everything.

 

I don't think it destroys the RPG experience or anything dramatic, either. I'm simply puzzled as to why that stuff can't go in a separate help screen or the back of a manual.

 

It does bring up an intriguing subject for some focus testing though. When you get a GUI tooltip that is longer than 5 lines, do people that do not want all that information (a) get lost trying to find the info they want? (b) just say screw it and ignore the tooltip completely? 50-50?

[HoonDing]

http://www.livestream.com/electronicarts/v...medium=ui-thumb

Dragon Age 2: Too fast, too furious.

[mkreku]

Well they're wondering if Isabella is into lesbianism and anal.

So.. uh.. is she? I mean, I have a.. uh, friend.. who needs to know this.

[Nepenthe]

Well they're wondering if Isabella is into lesbianism and anal.

So.. uh.. is she? I mean, I have a.. uh, friend.. who needs to know this.

Getting to find that out is the prime selling point of the game.

 

Besides, Isabella was totally into Leliana in DAO.

[Tale]

I like to think I've got the "creepy internet guy" thing going on. And I'm pretty good at it.

 

But those threads on Bioware social dedicated to characters? They frighten even me.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Tale

[Morgoth]

Those are some big bewbs there...