Piracy

[Cantousent]

If you work for 40 hours and you only get paid for 30 hours, are you greedy for demanding the pay for the other 10 hours? Good Lord, some of these arguments are idiotically self serving. I don't work for the game industry, but I do enjoy the games. I worked on a total of one game for one game company. I have no interest in working for a game developer. ...And I think some of the most vocal folks in this thread don't work for game developers or publishers. I probably don't make as much noise about it as people who have a financial stake in the industry, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with the idea that folks are due compensation for their work.

 

Put on top of that the fact that the majority of people here probably have some means to buy games, and you've put paid to the ridiculous argument about some Southeast Asian sitting in his urt hut downloading games on coconut and string internet connection and power supplied by trained monkeys running around in a hamster wheel.

[Humodour]

"The fact of the matter is, Piracy will happen"

 

The fact of the matter is, murder will happen.. so we shouldn't do anything to try to stop it. Don't you see how silly thata rgument is?

 

We should do things that eliminate the causes of murder obviously - increased education, increased prosperity of the populace. Increased law enforcement only works up to a point and the long-term gains are not as large.

 

It's a fitting example you chose Volourn, because it demonstrates why eliminating the source of a problem - changing one's business model in this case - has superior efficacy in the medium to long-term to treating people harshly.

 

Because it's irrelevant ? If you think it is, I'd like to hear the reasoning

 

I already explained why age is important earlier. I'm going to assume by your reluctance to share your age that I hit the nail on the head, although I'm now thinking you are closer to 23.

 

This is quite a ridiculous post, Hurlie.

 

You (and Gorth earlier) have been saying things that make you guys look bitter, out of touch, and most of all condescending. A really, really bad basis for your arguments, especially if you want anybody who downloads illegally to read them and give them some serious thought. Earlier I laid out an effective way to argue your case to people, especially people my age, and you ignored it.

 

"Back in myyyy day..."

 

I dunno what kind of youth you were Hurlie, but there are things I may regret doing when I was younger (as well as now, being only 22), but that's unlikely given my personality (did you even consider that people have different personality types and come from different cultures?). I certainly can't think of anything I regret yet, and I've done some silly things. These things make me who I am and to regret them would be to bemoan something which a) I can't change, and b) makes me who I am.

 

Definitely "piracy" (arrr!) is not and never will be one of the things I regret doing, I can say that much now. The notion that it will be is laughably naive. If I never downloaded games when I was younger, I'd never be as into games as I am now, and I would not be purchasing the number of games I do now - if any at all. I would not have discovered many wonderful things about science, philosophy, and art either, because games were often my inspiration for this. Nor would I be exposed to various cool internet gaming communities that have helped shape who I am.

 

No, even though I no longer have any interest in copying games, I am quite content with my past record on this issue, as I suspect are most people. Your current argument is a distraction from your core thesis.

[Purkake]

Wow, if this was GAF, the board would be an empty wasteland by now

[Orogun01]

I don't know much about the economic models of game developing, but seeing as every chant against piracy it's sung by the corporations I'm partial to think that it's just them being greedy.

 

This is something I see often, accusing businesses of greed, but is it really greedy to want to stop those who take your product for nothing? When does something move from a legitimate attempt at defending their business to just being greedy? If a company has 100 million dollars, and they come after me to get the 1 million I stole from them, are they just being greedy because, like, they've still got another 99 million?

 

There is a proper manner to conduct yourself on that situation, basically don't stoop to the level of the pirates (who are probably a great majority of teenagers and young adults) You don't bring the whole bearing of your force on someone weaker than you; makes you look like a bully. Nor do you whine about them, that only makes you look weak.

Basically they shouldn't even be acknowledging them as the problem and just try to improve either their DRM or their market tactics.

[Malcador]

Wow, if this was GAF, the board would be an empty wasteland by now

 

Never been on GAF, why ?

[Labadal]

Is it ok to steal a game from a gamestore? Let us say you decide to visit your local gamestore, but you have no money and the game you have wanted to play is finally available for sale. Would it be ok to grab the game and exit the store without paying? Piracy is the same thing, only difference is that you don't steal a physical object.

 

I used to download games illegally, and I do regret it. It was a crime. Period. I stole something that people worked very hard on. I didn't regret it back then, but I do now. I love gaming and it is my hobby, but if I can't afford the game, that doesn't give me the right to steal it. I had a tough economical period in my life (after stopping my piracy), so I cut down my gaming for a year or two. My situation is much better now and I can afford buying new games. I have also picked up a few games from the last couple of years that I could not afford back then. I also don't have to buy every game I want on day one, price drops are fast nowadays if you take your time and do a little research. Then we have the import option. Not everyone has this option, but some do. I have bought 50+ games this year for the cost of 30 games thanks to importing from the UK. This also includes getting cheaper Microsoft Points for XBLA.

 

So I guess what I want to say is that there are options, and whatever excuses you come up with is imo invalid. What if you worked on something for 40+ hours a week and then people started to illegally get a copy of your product. You wouldn't be hapoy, would you?

[Gorth]

You (and Gorth earlier) have been saying things that make you guys look bitter, out of touch, and most of all condescending.

 

Bitter? No. Never been in the victim role. I wouldn't develop shrink wrap software, art, music, whatever, even at gunpoint. Condescending? You bet. It has mostly to do with despising the mentality and the weakness I think that it represents. Probably no comfort to anyone that I feel equal contempt for nationalism and a few other personality traits.

[Hurlshort]

Krezack, I'm not sure if you read the entire thread, but there was a chain of events that lead to that particular exchange. Here was my original statement that Malcador took issue with:

 

Don't pirate because you will regret it some day. On this board are a lot of older gamers, and most of us probably partook in the ways of piracy when we were younger. But eventually you will get older, and your conscience will get the better of you. You will realize that it wasn't worth compromising your morals for a bunch of video games.

 

Now I don't mean that to sound condescending. It is just me talking about my life experience, and I know there are a few people on this forum that have shared a similar experience as they've gotten older. It's kind of insulting how quickly you and Malcador are to dismiss it, but such is the way of youth, I suppose.

[Purkake]

Wow, if this was GAF, the board would be an empty wasteland by now

 

Never been on GAF, why ?

They have a strict policy of admit to piracy - get banned. It's worked pretty well so far.

[Malcador]

Now I don't mean that to sound condescending. It is just me talking about my life experience, and I know there are a few people on this forum that have shared a similar experience as they've gotten older. It's kind of insulting how quickly you and Malcador are to dismiss it, but such is the way of youth, I suppose.

 

Right, that was insulting to you ? Sure, passive-agressive man, heh, I disagreed with it, hardly went on some tear on how worthless your argument is.

 

As for GAF's policy, sounds reasonable. Another forum I'm on has people that throw a hissy fit over the mere mention of piracy itself and ban people, I guess that's a bit extreme compared to the policy you've mentioned. But nah, it wouldn't be vacant, we'd have fine moral examples like above.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Malcador

[Purkake]

Ooh, we might finally get a real old vs young battle royale going. Who would have thought that would be the dividing line?

[Humodour]

Now I don't mean that to sound condescending. It is just me talking about my life experience, and I know there are a few people on this forum that have shared a similar experience as they've gotten older. It's kind of insulting how quickly you and Malcador are to dismiss it

 

You weren't sharing your life experience. Sharing your life experience would be explaining how you personally have grown up to regret copying games... not matter-of-factly telling young people they will come to rue their actions once they "grow up".

 

but such is the way of youth, I suppose.

 

There you go again.

 

Shame we can't have a decent discussion of business models, differences in cultural attitudes, and what the incentives for making illegal copies are (and thus how to eliminate them).

Edited November 30, 2010 by Krezack

[Hurlshort]

One of the few benefits of growing old is being able to matter-of-factly tell young people about their follies. I've got bad knees, a bad back, a bald head, high blood pressure, and I have to pop tums like candy when I eat most foods I like, so leave me with something!

[Humodour]

One of the few benefits of growing old is being able to matter-of-factly tell young people about their follies. I've got bad knees, a bad back, a bald head, high blood pressure, and I have to pop tums like candy when I eat most foods I like, so leave me with something!

 

I... think I'm going to go for a run and then eat a salad.

[Cantousent]

"Ooh, we might finally get a real old vs young battle royale going. Who would have thought that would be the dividing line?"

 

Even at 41, I'd probably be the end of the majority of the folks in this thread. :Cant's **** eating grin icon: ...But I'm almost a pacifist these days, so maybe not.

 

The thing is, with all the posturing aside, I think stealing games, either hard copy or by download, is wrong. Not in some sort of remote or theoretical sense. I think it's wrong to take someone's industry and effort without compensating them. I can understand developers and publishers not wanting to work hard on something only to have that work taken without payment. Moreover, I think piracy (or intellectual theft or whatever clever rejoinder you have in mind) is bad for the industry. Some of the things about which some pirates complain comes as a result in part of measures taken against piracy, such as bugs. There's a lot of effort and money involved in trying to fight piracy, and the idea that developers and publishers should lie down and let pirates plunder their work without attempting to fight makes no sense to me.

 

..And we're not talking about remote jungle folks here. Is piracy in Southeast Asia a bad thing? Sure. I mean, it's still hard to get worked up about someone in a remote area of China or India stealing the game to play. I would be very surprised if the vast majority of us here don't fall into that category. I wouldn't be surprised if none of us falls into that category.

[Orogun01]

Shame we can't have a decent discussion of business models, differences in cultural attitudes, and what the incentives for making illegal copies are (and thus how to eliminate them).

I'm your Huckleberry

[Humodour]

"Ooh, we might finally get a real old vs young battle royale going. Who would have thought that would be the dividing line?"

 

Even at 41, I'd probably be the end of the majority of the folks in this thread. :Cant's **** eating grin icon: ...But I'm almost a pacifist these days, so maybe not.

 

The thing is, with all the posturing aside, I think stealing games, either hard copy or by download, is wrong. Not in some sort of remote or theoretical sense. I think it's wrong to take someone's industry and effort without compensating them. I can understand developers and publishers not wanting to work hard on something only to have that work taken without payment. Moreover, I think piracy (or intellectual theft or whatever clever rejoinder you have in mind) is bad for the industry. Some of the things about which some pirates complain comes as a result in part of measures taken against piracy, such as bugs. There's a lot of effort and money involved in trying to fight piracy, and the idea that developers and publishers should lie down and let pirates plunder their work without attempting to fight makes no sense to me.

 

..And we're not talking about remote jungle folks here. Is piracy in Southeast Asia a bad thing? Sure. I mean, it's still hard to get worked up about someone in a remote area of China or India stealing the game to play. I would be very surprised if the vast majority of us here don't fall into that category. I wouldn't be surprised if none of us falls into that category.

 

Illegal copying in poor countries might be economically beneficial in the long-run. Microsoft's internal stance on the issue is that they'd prefer people make illegal copies of their products because the alternative is they are never exposed to Microsoft products, or worse, use competing products instead. So you've got an issue of mindshare. It's a similar thing to Google purchasing YouTube and loosing billions on it for a few years - long-term it pays itself off.

 

People in poor countries might be poor now, but if you can get them into gaming, then as those countries develop they'll become a paying market.

 

One other potential benefit of previous cases of illegal downloading (though not current cases) is probably that they provided the impetus for the development of legitimate online downloading services as well as the subsequent much-needed price cuts associated with them. Arguably this would have happened with or without illegal downloading, but probably much more slowly.

 

If you price your products too high, then a cheaper or free black market will very often evolve, and the only way to eliminate it is to out-compete it (again I refer to Steam, GoG, iTunes).

Edited November 30, 2010 by Krezack

[Hell Kitty]

I don't know much about the economic models of game developing, but seeing as every chant against piracy it's sung by the corporations I'm partial to think that it's just them being greedy.

 

This is something I see often, accusing businesses of greed, but is it really greedy to want to stop those who take your product for nothing? When does something move from a legitimate attempt at defending their business to just being greedy? If a company has 100 million dollars, and they come after me to get the 1 million I stole from them, are they just being greedy because, like, they've still got another 99 million?

 

There is a proper manner to conduct yourself on that situation, basically don't stoop to the level of the pirates (who are probably a great majority of teenagers and young adults) You don't bring the whole bearing of your force on someone weaker than you; makes you look like a bully. Nor do you whine about them, that only makes you look weak.

Basically they shouldn't even be acknowledging them as the problem and just try to improve either their DRM or their market tactics.

 

I don't know what this has to do with what I posted, it certainly doesn't answer the question.

 

Nor do you whine about them, that only makes you look weak. Who decides the difference between legitimate discussion concerning piracy and whining? Given your claim that "they shouldn't even be acknowledging them as the problem" I take it you think any and all comments are whining.

 

"It's perfectly fine for me to take your product for free, this isn't a problem and I don't like it when you claim otherwise, so I'll just accuse you of being greedy and whiney." The problem here isn't the publishers, it's the attitude of the freeloaders. They'll insist that it's up to the publishers to offer them a better deal they are willing to pay for, but how do you compete with free? Their unwillingness to pay for the game they want is the problem.

 

try to improve either their DRM or their market tactics. They do. Back when I started gaming you had things like code wheels and now we've got stuff like internet activation. Along with physical goodies like figurines found in the box we've got in-game preorder bonuses. Of course all this is stuff people whine about, but I guess it's okay for gamers to whine. Consumers (though perhaps not buyers) are allowed to bitch and moan all they want, but the businesses have to shut up and take it.

 

Anyway, back in the days of the Amiga over half of my games were pirated. I had a list from some guy and I'd send him a bunch of disks noting the game I wanted and he'd send copies back. I don't even remember how I met him, he was just my supplier of free games. At some point (in my PC days, once the Amiga was well and truly dead) is just didn't make sense. I coud afford to pay so I did. I'm 31.*

 

* I don't see the big issue with revealing one's age, but then even a 20 year old knows it's silly to insist that his views won't change in 10 or 20 years.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Hell Kitty

[sorophx]

stealing games, either hard copy or by download, is wrong. Not in some sort of remote or theoretical sense. I think it's wrong to take someone's industry and effort without compensating them.

can anybody explain to me again how stealing 1000 copies from 1000 retailers hurt the industry? talk about different cultures and mentality. I don't understand...

you said it!

[Humodour]

stealing games, either hard copy or by download, is wrong. Not in some sort of remote or theoretical sense. I think it's wrong to take someone's industry and effort without compensating them.

can anybody explain to me again how stealing 1000 copies from 1000 retailers hurt the industry? talk about different cultures and mentality. I don't understand...

 

The only cultural aspect of this is how much one values freedom of information.

 

Unfortunately however, your example, does not raise this issue at all, and instead is a purely economic issue which is referred to as the 'free rider problem'.

 

But if we were to consider this a question of values, then there are some possible avenues to address the economic issues involved here whilst keeping media free to access. They are basically all equivalent to redistribution of wealth (which I am fine with, within reason) and good examples are public broadcasters.

 

What I don't like is things like Canada's scheme where people can download songs all they want legally, but everyone is charged an entertainment tax which is given to various music companies. Talk about government picking winners and propping up non-viable business models. So ****ed up.

 

Canada, if it really wants such a government-backed scheme, should have a state-owned music label under which all music produced is public domain or copyleft licensed.

[Cantousent]

I meant personal industry, not the industry as a set of businesses, although I think the fact that 'the industry' has been harmed by piracy is apparent in that it fights piracy fairly strenuously. The industry would not spend money to prevent piracy unless the management thought that there was some benefit.

 

But you can take my comment as "I think it's wrong to take someone's time investment and effort without compensating him."

 

As for stealing 1000 copies from 1000 retailers... I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that spreading out the harm between 1000 different outlets somehow lessens the effect on each individual outlet? I'm sure that's true, but that argument, in and of itself, acknowleges harm. I honestly cannot fathom how folks can defend piracy. Are you, Sorophx, living somewhere you cannot purchase things legally? Are the prices so horrible on every single game that you cannot, where you live, buy them either hardcopy or by download? I don't concede the point on the Southeast Asian argument, but at least I can understand it's an argument. Every single other defense of piracy I've seen here amounts to mental gymnastics. These arguments don't serve as a rational basis for taking software without paying the publisher. They're self serving statements concocted after the fact. Software piracy is simply wrong. I'd respect you more if you just said, "I want something but don't want to pay for it." Then I wouldn't bother arguing. What more would there be to say? You're a thief.

 

This is all theoretical, of course, since no one here actually pirates... only argues why piracy isn't bad or is even beneficial.

 

In terms of actual people, I cannot find it in me to hate all software pirates simply because I've known folks who are good and decent except for their attitude about stealing software. ...Or music. ...Or movies. Yeah, I don't want to go through life hating all these folks, but I simply don't buy any of their excuses.

[sorophx]

I'm not defending pirates I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind statements like, "pirates take the developer's money by downloading their games". isn't this kinda far fetched? I'm still waiting for an example of a game developer studio that released a good game and had to close down soon afterwards because it went bankrupt "thanks" to pirates.

[Thorton_AP]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are a lot of guys who are downloading pirating EA games, only because they destroyed Origin, Bullfrog and Westwood... It's their way how to show their dislike of their business practices... And most of them feel like Robin Hood...

 

We all know that it will most likely not hurt EA's bottomline, but in their view, it's a just cause...

 

I'd bet money that this sect of people is a lot smaller than you think.

 

Software piracy is pretty much just economics. You can get something for cheaper, with no fear of retribution. Every now and then you get Ubisoft putting an outright challenge to them (which was just retarded), but if people are still butthurt over Origin, Bullfrog, and Westwood, they need to learn to move on.

[Thorton_AP]

I'm still waiting for an example of a game developer studio that released a good game and had to close down soon afterwards because it went bankrupt "thanks" to pirates.

Michael Fitch, of Iron Lore entertainment made a post here attributing part of the companies downfall to piracy. It's not really quantified in any way though so I find a lot of people indifferent/supportive of piracy just dismiss it.

 

He comments that not only do pirates contribute via lost sales, but also because the first pirated copies of Titan Quest were a "quick and dirty hack job" that didn't work properly resulting in false impressions of the game.

 

 

 

In my mind, piracy is a net negative on the industry. I am skeptical that it's "demo/review/I buy more games than I otherwise wouldn't" group outweighs the "Meh, I can get games for free so why not" group, and even beyond that, piracy is leading to a marginalization of the PC Gaming industry (I don't think it's dying, but it's remained stagnant in spite of heavy growth elsewhere and great market availability). Piracy is also responsible for the DRM that so many people seem to hate.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[sorophx]

Software piracy

heh, funny that you mentioned "software" piracy. thanks for bringing that up

 

for every piece of software on the market there is a free alternative. which is not the case with games, because games require more to make than just be a good programmer. I consider game crackers to be somewhere with the free software builders. they have the same goals and they pretty much "hurt" their respective markets in the same way.

 

this is why I don't see piracy as theft.

 

EDIT:

Michael Fitch, of Iron Lore entertainment made a post

hey, thanks. an interesting read.

 

before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash

that's a sad story, but it has little to do with piracy and a lot to do with the fact, that half the population on this planet are stupid as ****. I do agree, that they make the world go round, they are the people who buy most games (they buy everything, for that matter, consumerist drones) and they support the industry. but this is true for adults, who have a steady income.

 

those who play cracked games and complain about them are just beyond stupid, most of the time they're teenagers who can't even afford a lunch in their school cafeteria.

 

personally I heard only good things about Titan Quest but could never find it in stores. not sure who in his right mind would listen to people like the ones described in his post.

 

the numbers he names there are somewhat hard to believe though. piracy rates in Europe are close to 90%? it's hard to believe indeed. but I suppose it could be right.

 

makes me wonder why some indie developers can make it work and can make a profit while others suffer from piracy so greatly. got something to to with marketing?

Edited November 30, 2010 by sorophx