Piracy

[Hurlshort]

There are a lot of avenues. A few years back I ordered a Baldur's Gate compilation pack from some specialty store on Amazon. You've got Ebay also. There are tons of legal ways to track down an old game in today's world.

I don't see how buying a second hand game is different from downloading it. only in the first case you actually pay money to the guy. I don't think it's possible to convince me second-hand sales are more "legal" than torrents

 

Ebay has a large amount of stores that sell new games, actually.

 

But second-hand games is a pretty different argument. It's legal, as Gamestop's entire business model is built around it, but I can definitely see the argument that it is bad for the game industry. Comparing it to a torrent, where hundreds if not thousands of people make use of one copy of a game is pretty laughable though.

[Malcador]

Looks my post got erased.

 

Anyways, sum it up... can't buy games of companies that are busted *cough* Troika *cough*... till pretty recently when Steam offered them up. How would people suggest I go legal there?

Also, game devs should develop demo's dammit.

 

Doesn't that class as abandonware, or is that just wishful thinking

[sorophx]

Comparing it to a torrent, where hundreds if not thousands of people make use of one copy of a game is pretty laughable though.

that's my point though. what's so bad about it, when you take second hand sales into consideration. I mean "pitting" the two. imho, torrents are way better and more sensible

Edited December 6, 2011 by sorophx

[Hurlshort]

Comparing it to a torrent, where hundreds if not thousands of people make use of one copy of a game is pretty laughable though.

that's my point though. what's so bad about it, when you take second hand sales into consideration. I mean "pitting" the two. imho, torrents are way better and more sensible

 

I have no idea where you are going with this.

 

A used game is sold to one person. That is much less than the thousands that can make use of a torrent. The original buyer of the now used game also no longer has access to the game. The person who set up the torrent has no such problem. What is not clear here?

 

Second-hand sales are not illegal because you are taking a product you own and giving it completely to another person. This may be negative for the industry, but it is not illegal. However, buying one product and then allowing it to be spawned endlessly is very clearly illegal.

[sorophx]

I have no idea where you are going with this.

I'm trying to say, it's legal for all the wrong reasons. but that has to do with my view of modern economy in general. while in essence both acts are the same, the fact that the game is played by a single person rather than a thousand makes it tolerable for the publishers. which makes sense business wise, but not morally (how ironic)

[greylord]

Though to tell the truth I hold those who make stupid protection schemes like always online to play an SP game just as evil and destructive to the PC industry as any pirate...perhaps MORESO...as I haven't really been affected by pirates as far as I can tell...but have PERSONALLY been affected by stupid Game protection schemes as a legit buyer.

To put it in less words than Volourn, you have been affected by pirates whether you realise it or not. DRM is a response to both piracy and the attitude of those that feel that only other people should pay for stuff. Complaining about DRM and not the pirates is shooting the messenger. The airport security measures are an apt comparison. You get x-rayed through your underwear and bodily searched even if you are innocent, because some people don't "play by the rules" to get what they want.

 

I'll believe that when they have a DRM that actually stops Pirates. DRM isn't designed against the pirates despite what they say...in fact it only spurs the pirates to hack the stuff more.

 

No, DRM is the anti-consumer tool by people who have no idea what they are doing.

 

Saying DRM is caused by Piracy is like saying the War in Iraq was caused by WMDs (sorry for the politics, but similar idealogy). I the end, were there any WMD's even found in Iraq? Sure, many supported the idea of the War (DRM) because of misconceptions of WMDs (that the DRM would even stop piracy) but when you got to the heart of the matter, there weren't any WMDs there (aka...pirates weren't stopped by the DRM overall).

 

Except the DRM is worse...not only is DRM not effective, it hurts your real customers and drives them away. It's like if they retaliated at the very thought of WMDs in another nation by dropping nuke on Los Angelos.

 

Someone should stand up and think...what they heck are we doing!? There is no real need for DRM...unless we LIKE hurting our own customers and driving them away.

 

I have no idea where you are going with this.

I'm trying to say, it's legal for all the wrong reasons. but that has to do with my view of modern economy in general. while in essence both acts are the same, the fact that the game is played by a single person rather than a thousand makes it tolerable for the publishers. which makes sense business wise, but not morally (how ironic)

 

I think the opposite...that second hand sales are NOT tolerable to publishers. I think that's one of the big things they are trying to stop. Many of them consider second hand sales the true piracy out there...despite the law...and look for anyway they can to circumvent the law if the law profits someone other then themselves. So instead they bend it as far a they can (same thing with many of their EULAs...have you read those things!? I think some of those would NEVER hold up in court with some of the things they try to require) without actually appearing to be breaking the law.

Edited December 6, 2011 by greylord

[Hassat Hunter]

Ebay has a large amount of stores that sell new games, actually.

 

But second-hand games is a pretty different argument. It's legal, as Gamestop's entire business model is built around it, but I can definitely see the argument that it is bad for the game industry. Comparing it to a torrent, where hundreds if not thousands of people make use of one copy of a game is pretty laughable though.

Not back then it didn't... but I got it on Steam now, so all's well...

Still doesn't make up for that for most modern games if you're a true pure person... you need to gamble with your $50 wheter or not a game suits you due to lack of demo's for most games. My friends don't really got the same taste.

I could also (and actually do) wait for the price to drop severly... but I somehow think that doesn't help them much better, right...

I have no idea where you are going with this.

Seems pretty obvious. Neither payment goes to the original developers. So why give your money to some random dude at all. Why pay HIM/HER for their work?

If it doesn't profit the original creators in any way... why would one way be better than the other... they both equally suck for them.

[Nepenthe]

I'll believe that when they have a DRM that actually stops Pirates. DRM isn't designed against the pirates despite what they say...in fact it only spurs the pirates to hack the stuff more.

Sure it does, but the easy access to cracks by "professionals" has rendered the old-school piracy of making a copy of the disc and giving it a friend a bit redundant. Doesn't mean it wouldn't happen if the measures weren't there.

[Mamoulian War]

There are a lot of avenues. A few years back I ordered a Baldur's Gate compilation pack from some specialty store on Amazon. You've got Ebay also. There are tons of legal ways to track down an old game in today's world.

I don't see how buying a second hand game is different from downloading it. only in the first case you actually pay money to the guy. I don't think it's possible to convince me second-hand sales are more "legal" than torrents

 

Ebay has a large amount of stores that sell new games, actually.

 

But second-hand games is a pretty different argument. It's legal, as Gamestop's entire business model is built around it, but I can definitely see the argument that it is bad for the game industry. Comparing it to a torrent, where hundreds if not thousands of people make use of one copy of a game is pretty laughable though.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but lot of these new games on internet are just repacked used ones. With high enough quality manuals etc, so the customer does not spot the difference. Not to mention that there are many companies who are specialised in selling pressed copies of the games

 

you have to pick the shop carefully or you end up with counterfeit...

[Mamoulian War]

The Swiss Government rocks.

 

Nice one

 

I especially love this quote

 

The report argues that piracy is only a significant concern for "large foreign production companies," and that these large companies need to adapt to new consumer behavior rather than seeking further legislative changes. And, the report says, "fears that these changes have a negative impact on the Swiss cultural creativity are unfounded."

[Walsingham]

I'm utterly baffled by your insistence that selling a game second hand is bad. What about selling my car second hand?

[Nepenthe]

I'm utterly baffled by your insistence that selling a game second hand is bad. What about selling my car second hand?

I'd expect you to be able to make the connection as an intelligent person, Walsh. "Oh, the 2nd hand sellers are the real criminals, so I'm actually doing a good thing by downloading the game myself".

[Azdeus]

Nice one

 

I especially love this quote

 

The report argues that piracy is only a significant concern for "large foreign production companies," and that these large companies need to adapt to new consumer behavior rather than seeking further legislative changes. And, the report says, "fears that these changes have a negative impact on the Swiss cultural creativity are unfounded."

 

I like "Yet the report argues that the spread of file-sharing is no great cause for concern. It argues that consumers spend a roughly constant share of their disposable income on entertainment expenses. Money saved on buying CDs and DVDs are instead spent on "concerts, movies, and merchandising.""

 

They don't specifically touch upon games, but it is tangentally related due to lobbyists working governments over to screw internet users over. The part you cited unfortunately does'nt have any quantitative(?) statements, so how much it actually is a "significant concern" is hard to say.

[Gorth]

The Swiss Government rocks.

 

Nice one

 

I especially love this quote

 

The report argues that piracy is only a significant concern for "large foreign production companies," and that these large companies need to adapt to new consumer behavior rather than seeking further legislative changes. And, the report says, "fears that these changes have a negative impact on the Swiss cultural creativity are unfounded."

Funny coming from the same country whose national industry is export of lethal baby formula to third world countries killing thousands of infants, the safe keeping of Nazi gold, the treasuries of various dictators, organised crime assets and pride themselves of not giving out any information, regardless of how shady their clients are, as long as they are not Swiss. If they had had a software industry of their own, they might have been whistling a different tune. Nice role models you've got yourself there

[Malcador]

Well that's a decent rejection, heh. You never heard the argument that second-hand buyers are bad people for not giving their money to the developers ? It's pretty silly but people get their backs up about it.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Malcador

[Maria Caliban]

Funny coming from the same country whose national industry is export of lethal baby formula to third world countries killing thousands of infants...

What?

[sorophx]

Nestle?

[Azdeus]

Funny coming from the same country whose national industry is export of lethal baby formula to third world countries killing thousands of infants, the safe keeping of Nazi gold, the treasuries of various dictators, organised crime assets and pride themselves of not giving out any information, regardless of how shady their clients are, as long as they are not Swiss. If they had had a software industry of their own, they might have been whistling a different tune. Nice role models you've got yourself there

 

Poisoning the well AND Godwin's law, all at once, nice. :D

I trust the Swiss government more than the US or French.

And a good thing their country is'nt a former penal colony, I mean how could you trust anyone decended from criminals?

Edited December 6, 2011 by Azdeus

[Maria Caliban]

Their national industry is killing third-world babies. It makes me feel good to be an American.

[Pidesco]

Fortunately, American industry is only killing third-world adults.

[Gorgon]

I'm utterly baffled by your insistence that selling a game second hand is bad. What about selling my car second hand?

I'd expect you to be able to make the connection as an intelligent person, Walsh. "Oh, the 2nd hand sellers are the real criminals, so I'm actually doing a good thing by downloading the game myself".

The art of good business is being a good middleman. Money doesn't go from consumer to game publisher before other actors get in on the action and in doing so contribute to overall economic activity. On a related matter, one would have to show that these middlemen, such as used game sellers, negatively affect the quality and budget of games before comming out against them. Assumptions aren't useful here.

[Hurlshort]

I'm utterly baffled by your insistence that selling a game second hand is bad. What about selling my car second hand?

I'd expect you to be able to make the connection as an intelligent person, Walsh. "Oh, the 2nd hand sellers are the real criminals, so I'm actually doing a good thing by downloading the game myself".

The art of good business is being a good middleman. Money doesn't go from consumer to game publisher before other actors get in on the action and in doing so contribute to overall economic activity. On a related matter, one would have to show that these middlemen, such as used game sellers, negatively affect the quality and budget of games before comming out against them. Assumptions aren't useful here.

 

I believe I read something about how trade-ins actually increase the amount of new game sales, which makes sense to me. I know personally the only way I can buy new games regularly is by trading in my older games to offset some of the cost. We know how important those first few weeks are for the sales numbers, and so if trade-ins are actually driving those numbers up, it seems like a good situation for everyone.

[Maria Caliban]

I think this debate about second-hand sales isn't useful. If pirating is bad and second-hand sales are bad, that doesn't mean pirating is okay.

 

Fortunately, American industry is only killing third-world adults.

It's more of a hobby.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Maria Caliban

[C2B]

Its a bit off-topic (since the discussion seems to be very specific). There is one thing I do "pirate".

 

Patches of Games that are restricted to Steam (Or to be more precise backups of patches)

 

I just always have this feeling that sometime in the future patches for (then) older games will disappear from Steam. Having it as the only resource of them just irks me to no end.

Edited December 6, 2011 by C2B

[Hassat Hunter]

I'm utterly baffled by your insistence that selling a game second hand is bad. What about selling my car second hand?

I'd expect you to be able to make the connection as an intelligent person, Walsh. "Oh, the 2nd hand sellers are the real criminals, so I'm actually doing a good thing by downloading the game myself".

You guys read right? Do I have to repeat myself.

 

Even so what you or I believe is irrelevant. Most game developers put in codes and online passes so second-hand have to pay up some to play. So, obviously, THEY thin second-hand is a threat to them, and no money. Are you going to say they're wrong now?

 

@ Hurlshot; The best being for the second-hand middleman, selling a full game, buying second-hand games full and selling them for more... while the first one a cut goes to other parties (like, the developers), the ssecond is all for the businessman. Why you think second hand got GameStore so big? Over backs of developers. At least pirates don't make money with other people's work...