E for Everyone, except me

[Thorton_AP]

I thought this was an interesting, albeit lightweight, article regarding the evolution of games lately.

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/v...ryone-Except-Me

[Gfted1]

Wow, I had no idea, and am a bit sceptical, that games today cost $25,000,000 to make! That sounds absurd.

[Oner]

Wow, I had no idea, and am a bit skeptical, that games today cost $25,000,000 to make! That sounds absurd.

Half-Life 2 cost 40MM in 2004.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/valve-ta...e-two-interview

[213374U]

Nice article, but I think he has failed to consider the immense weight that modding has on the industry nowadays. Case in point, RTW is fairly "pop" in its depiction of the Hellenistic period and rise of the Roman Empire, but this is fixed, for those that want it to be fixed, by mods.

 

I don't think I'd be able to stomach many modern games without mods.

[Gorgon]

Must be absurdly high salaries and very lengthy production times. You would think it would make for better games, but no. A fitting analogy would be the Hollywood blockbuster. Rarely ever a good movie, but packed with so many stars, effects and with so much of an advertising budget it will stream roll its way to the top of the charts regardless.

 

I wish it was as easy to make an Indie game as an Indie movie, but this is obviously not the case.

[Gfted1]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/valve-ta...e-two-interview

 

 

We saw a desperate need to change the formula after Half-Life 2 took us six years and 40 million dollars to create.

 

Thats nuts. Thats longer and more expensive then most major movie releases. Why? I wonder, that much time and money is spent in literally just paying the programmers or does that include advertising, packaging, etc...?

[Amentep]

Must be absurdly high salaries and very lengthy production times. You would think it would make for better games, but no. A fitting analogy would be the Hollywood blockbuster. Rarely ever a good movie, but packed with so many stars, effects and with so much of an advertising budget it will stream roll its way to the top of the charts regardless.

 

I wish it was as easy to make an Indie game as an Indie movie, but this is obviously not the case.

 

Same problem hits indy games and indy movies - very little distribution room.

 

Also competitive practices tend to ensure lack of screens/retail space for smaller product.

[Gorgon]

Permanent staffers have to be payed, they aren't hired on a project basis. For every month they decide it's not quite done yet the cost accumulates.

[Thorton_AP]

Nice article, but I think he has failed to consider the immense weight that modding has on the industry nowadays. Case in point, RTW is fairly "pop" in its depiction of the Hellenistic period and rise of the Roman Empire, but this is fixed, for those that want it to be fixed, by mods.

 

I don't think I'd be able to stomach many modern games without mods.

 

Are mods that common. Of all the people that played Rome: Total War, how many of them actually used mods to create a more realistic experience?

 

Also, isn't it kind of bad when games need to be modded to hell and back in order to get the desired result?

 

I loved Rome: Total Realism, but I doubt many people truly experienced it that way (and I still considered to product to be inferior compared to the original Medieval).

 

 

Same problem hits indy games and indy movies - very little distribution room.

 

Also competitive practices tend to ensure lack of screens/retail space for smaller product.

 

This is one thing I love about digital distribution.

[Volourn]

Numbers are suspicious.

[Niten_Ryu]

Wow, I had no idea, and am a bit sceptical, that games today cost $25,000,000 to make! That sounds absurd.

 

25 million is for AAA quality games, but can go up to 80 million (for Red Dead Redemption) or even 100 million (for GTA 4). These figures include all the costs, from development to marketing. Mike Pachter gives 17 dollars for every 60 dollar game sold and it's a bit higher number given in the article. Thus 25 million dollar project would need bit under 1,5 million units sold to secure next project, to cover the costs of development and marketing ect ect.

 

Game industry is harsh biz these days and there're way more losers then winners.

[Bos_hybrid]

Thats nuts. Thats longer and more expensive then most major movie releases. Why? I wonder, that much time and money is spent in literally just paying the programmers or does that include advertising, packaging, etc...?

 

Not really. A major movie release will hit 100 mil+.

[213374U]

Are mods that common. Of all the people that played Rome: Total War, how many of them actually used mods to create a more realistic experience?

 

Also, isn't it kind of bad when games need to be modded to hell and back in order to get the desired result?

 

I loved Rome: Total Realism, but I doubt many people truly experienced it that way (and I still considered to product to be inferior compared to the original Medieval).

1) I have no idea. And frankly, I don't care. I know I did, and that's good enough for me.

 

2) Depends on who you ask, I guess. To the people who liked vanilla RTW, I'm going to assume it's not so bad. And not for me either, as the mods were there when I needed them. I might have a different opinion if the game didn't have such a modding community around it.

 

3) I reckon it's a fairly popular mod (though I liked Europa Barbarorum better myself), so I don't know the proportion of RTW players that have tried such mods. Not everyone has the same tastes, so not everyone is in the mood for edutainment when they fire up a game. I know I'm not always.

 

I'm not really too fond of opinion pieces that are just *RANT!*, and go on about how bad things are... while actually ignoring how things are. The author stopped playing X-Com when it became real-time. But there was a "X-Com" game by fans that was essentially a total conversion using the Quake 2 engine. It looked fairly promising last time I checked.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If he's serious about good games, he shouldn't be such a graphics whore. Graphics have very little to do with enjoying a strategy game after the first few minutes. I used to think good games have really dried up also, but for the past year or so there's been a steady stream of good to excellent games. Of course most of them are shooters, but still.

 

Edit: He's right about RTW being crap compared to MTW though.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[mkreku]

I recently read that Jowood has invested 6 million euros in Arcania: A Gothic Tale. They need it to sell in the millions.

 

http://forum.jowood.com/showthread.php?t=169657

[LadyCrimson]

Quoting from that escapist article:

So it's not that I've left videogames behind - videogames have left me behind. They've evolved, and I haven't....Indeed, it's hard not to feel like every facet of game design has evolved away from my tastes. It used to be that dozens of high-end games were released to my liking every year. Now there is or are maybe one or two. [snip to end of article] I don't blame Creative Assembly or Matrix for adapting to the new ecological realities. They needed to in order to survive. I'm the one who hasn't evolved.

That's pretty much me in a nutshell. I certainly don't blame the companies because they've "evolved" into directions & business models/policies etc. that I personally don't like. I can wish it was different but if wishes were fishes. So I play old games & do other things while waiting to hear announcements or news of the occasional AAA or indie game that actually might interest me...I'm even getting used to the sun again.

 

1) I have no idea. And frankly, I don't care. I know I did, and that's good enough for me.

Mods still tend to be a niche area, imo. For certain games, that niche becomes loud (that's not a negative thing), noticeable, & fairly evolved, but still largely a niche. I have no hard figures for that, it's just my vague feeling from reading forums/game news for all these years. It's true that if you ignore an awesome mod - assuming you've even heard of it - that's your choice...but the article/opinion was about what the "official" companies produce, not what fan mod-makers produce.

 

Must be absurdly high salaries and very lengthy production times.

I'd be curious how many of the AAA companies/staffers live in high-living costs areas. I know Blizzard/EA do. The salaries needed/desired for even average living in those areas may sound absurd to those not living in them, but most of them really aren't that extreme. Unless you're talking about the CEO's who sit on yachts paying themselves bonuses...that might be true. I think most of it, tho, would be production time, marketing costs, increasing material, legal aid, insurance/license & other company costs...the sheer amount of workers required for all of it...look at the amount of ppl in many credits these days, particularly for feature games/movies...they go on and on and on...

[Amentep]

Its weird, but so far I've always adapted to the changing game market. I've always found something I've liked. Maybe there have been years where I only bought 1 or 2 games, but there's always been something. Not sure how I'd feel if it got to the point where I didn't (but them maybe my wallet would be happy...).

[Thorton_AP]

1) I have no idea. And frankly, I don't care. I know I did, and that's good enough for me.

 

Then why comment on the "immense weight" that modding contributes. If it works for you then fantastic. But that's neither here nor there when discussing the industry as a whole. I assumed you had something of substance rather than "Hey, I like them." Unless you're concluding that because you like them, they therefore have a significant influence on the industry which the person writing the article overlooked.

 

I'm not really too fond of opinion pieces that are just *RANT!*, and go on about how bad things are... while actually ignoring how things are. The author stopped playing X-Com when it became real-time. But there was a "X-Com" game by fans that was essentially a total conversion using the Quake 2 engine. It looked fairly promising last time I checked.

 

I have never heard of it. I suspect most total conversions suffer a similar fate from the majority of people. Odo, the weight on the market is probably less immense than you originally indicated in your earlier post.

[Nightshape]

Wow, I had no idea, and am a bit sceptical, that games today cost $25,000,000 to make! That sounds absurd.

 

But sadly it isn't.

[Purkake]

Considering the potential profits, it's not really surprising that people are sinking millions upon millions into development.

 

Modern Warfare 2 sold more than $550 million worth of copies in the first 5 days, eclipsing all movies and GTA IV which held the previous record.

[Gfted1]

Wow, I had no idea, and am a bit sceptical, that games today cost $25,000,000 to make! That sounds absurd.

 

But sadly it isn't.

 

Now that I know those figures are the out-the-door price (advertising, packaging, shipping, etc) it makes a lot more sense. Id be interested to know the nuts and bolts costs, what the core game costs (programmers, office space, etc). I wouldnt be surprised if its the smallest part of the budget. Not that it changes anything, but Im curious.

[Niten_Ryu]

So it's not that I've left videogames behind - videogames have left me behind. They've evolved, and I haven't...

 

I'm glad that I don't feel this way... or rather I look at the games from different angle. For me it always comes down to the simple fact - Is this game worth the price? It was that way in the early 80's and it's still that way. In the past, especially in early 90's there were more games worth the full price then I had time to money or buy. Nowadays only few games a year are worth the full price. Many games are worth something and some games are not even the worth to download or play 'em even if those games would be free.

 

Something like Steam holiday sales are like custom made for me. I buy more games from the sales then I have time to play 'em. Overlord was easily worth 5

Edited July 12, 2010 by Niten_Ryu

[Meshugger]

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

[Nightshape]

http://www.animationarena.com/video-game-salary.html

 

They seem right based on what I know, and have seen.

[Niten_Ryu]

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

 

There's no answer for that. It all depends on location and job position. For example it's really pricey to live in California area, less in Texas, still less in UK, even less in Finland (Max Payne, Alan Wake developers Remedy or Flatout developer Bugbear) and still less in Poland (The Witcher developers CDproject). Entry level programmer can barely pay his rent and buy food while Lead Progammer get big bucks.

 

For example the salaries in Nightshapes linked list are way too high. If entry level progammer would ask 50k here in Finland, he'd end up with the permanent smile on his face in the nearest river.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Niten_Ryu