Thorton_AP Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 I'm guessing he is referring to the specifics of your comment, which the paraphrase of the dialogue wheel doesn't display.
Morgoth Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) What do you mean with "guess". I knew exactly what I was saying in ME. And what do you mean with bad VO? Jennifer Hale rocks. And you haven't heard Hawke yet. E.g. summary was something among the lines of 'you should have informed the husband about that'. What Shepard does? Grabs the guy by the collar and threatens him among the line of 'go and inform the family'. NICE! Alpha Protocol had the same problem. So you don't like small surprises then? Either way, maybe it's not exactly ideal for roleplaying, but what the heck I was always more the story guy anyway. Edited July 10, 2010 by Morgoth Rain makes everything better.
WorstUsernameEver Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 So you don't like small surprises then? Either way, maybe it's not exactly ideal for roleplaying, but what the heck I was also more the story guy anyway. Not if the surprises come from 'my' character. But maybe you're right, it should have been evident that Shepard is Bioware's character, and I was simply the one directing it. Bummers that they're following the same route with Dragon Age though (not that it's nearly enough to make me go 'RUINED FOREVER!' but it is disappointing imho).
Thorton_AP Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 I'm relatively indifferent between the two. The one thing about the paraphrase is that I'll usually not play with subtitles on and actually watch the conversation unfold. Which I do consider a small plus.
Spider Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 For me it's more that I don't think cinematic storytelling is really fitting to the type of game DA tried to be. And I liked the game it tried to be, so that's what I want more of. Pushing it further down that road makes me like it less. It's not that I hate the dialogue wheel per se, I just don't think it fits with what I liked about DA. Also, it removes the illusion of control I have over the character. It's not the end of the world, but it is still something that makes me hesitant (because it indicates the game might go further down the cinematic road).
Gromnir Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 Play some IE games if you want old-skool. I prefer the wheel. It looks so more...ergonomic. So you prefer to guess what your PC is going to say? With bad voiceacting to boot? Because that was my experience with the wheel in ME. Wasn't nice. At all. What do you mean with "guess". I knew exactly what I was saying in ME. And what do you mean with bad VO? Jennifer Hale rocks. And you haven't heard Hawke yet. ... you do realize that the actual point o' the dialogue wheel is to conserve expensive vo resources, right? the reason we get wheel in da2 is because we is getting full vo for the player, and the wheel allows a single line of spoken dialogue to gets multiple interpretations. instead o' dialogue bifurcation you gots dialogue... funneling. you is being cheated and you don't even realize 'cause the biowarians did an effective snow job, aided by easily duped members o' the gaming media. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
HoonDing Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 Years 1-2: Oh, baby, my nubile elf romance NPC-stress, love that jiggle-tech! (makes mad passionate love) Years 2-3: We're married, I hate your 8000 year old mother, we still make mad passionate love but only at the weekends in the most expensive tavern in Lothering :: sigh :: Years 4-8: Kids. Bloody kids. I'm spending more time at the dungeon, the food fairy won't feed those brats and keep you in new wizard robes, and yes I've cleaned the horse this morning. Years 9-10: That new rogue chick I've been adventuring with, I'm sorry, it just happened after we found the secret door and she was wearing that leather armour, the stuff with the thigh boots? I know she's ten years younger than you darling, but I've been wondering about where our marriage was going for a while and, y'know, she really understands me... whaddya mean you get the keep, both my war dogs and 75% of the gold? WTF! Be sure to copyright this before D. Gaider takes notes. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Thorton_AP Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 instead o' dialogue bifurcation you gots dialogue... funneling. How frequently did separate dialogue choices (at the same point) in the ME games speak the same line of dialogue? I didn't really notice, but wasn't looking for it either.
kirottu Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 So you don't like small surprises then? Either way, maybe it's not exactly ideal for roleplaying, but what the heck I was also more the story guy anyway. Not if the surprises come from 'my' character. But maybe you're right, it should have been evident that Shepard is Bioware's character, and I was simply the one directing it. Bummers that they're following the same route with Dragon Age though (not that it's nearly enough to make me go 'RUINED FOREVER!' but it is disappointing imho). I agree fully. It is annoying, but it isn This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Thorton_AP Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 How frequently though? Because I've seen lines in DAO (and other full line dialogue games), where the same unique dialogue line you choose results in the same response from the NPC you're talking to, with no significance given to the player's decision to speak a different line. To me it seems like pretty much the same thing.
Gromnir Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 instead o' dialogue bifurcation you gots dialogue... funneling. How frequently did separate dialogue choices (at the same point) in the ME games speak the same line of dialogue? I didn't really notice, but wasn't looking for it either. Every Single Time again, that were the point o' the wheel. if there were 3 dialogue choices on wheel, at least two would have same vo spoken line. vo is very expensive, and the wheel allows 1-spoken line o' vo to be having multiple interpretations. unfortunately, from a crpg pov, this leads to funneling of dialogues rather than bifurcation. dialogue wheel may be a necessary evil to makes full vo possible, but we is personally offended by the flimflammery that bioware indulged in when selling this "feature" to the gaming public... and as much as we is offended by the attempt to mislead and misdirect, we is even more surprised by their success. how did the biowarians pull off such a monumental Dr. Mesmer routine? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Morgoth Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 The Gothic games were quite honest in their dialog approach. 1. Show me the way or I beat the **** out of you. 2. See ya. No phantom dialog lines, just the stuff that was really scripted/recorded. If the wheel is helping this approach then I'm all for it. Rain makes everything better.
Gromnir Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 it is very difficult for the da to successful prosecute con-men. the single greatest obstacle to such prosecutions is getting the duped to testify. successful and seeming intelligent citizens not want the stigma o' being exposed as fools. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
WorstUsernameEver Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 Every Single Time again, that were the point o' the wheel. if there were 3 dialogue choices on wheel, at least two would have same vo spoken line. vo is very expensive, and the wheel allows 1-spoken line o' vo to be having multiple interpretations. unfortunately, from a crpg pov, this leads to funneling of dialogues rather than bifurcation. dialogue wheel may be a necessary evil to makes full vo possible, but we is personally offended by the flimflammery that bioware indulged in when selling this "feature" to the gaming public... and as much as we is offended by the attempt to mislead and misdirect, we is even more surprised by their success. how did the biowarians pull off such a monumental Dr. Mesmer routine? HA! Good Fun! That's another problem with the wheel, though you're going into an hyperbole. I don't see much difference between that and offering you 10 unvoiced options which are answered the same way though. By the way, surprisingly, Alpha Protocol didn't suffer from that problem, even if I can't imagine Obsidian having a bigger budget than Bioware for the project.
Serrano Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 Mass Effect probably has a lot more dialog overall though, I know that AP had many variables but the volume of NPCs, news reports, companions ect must have added up to a fearsome amount of lines for both ME games.
Oblarg Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 Mass Effect probably has a lot more dialog overall though, I know that AP had many variables but the volume of NPCs, news reports, companions ect must have added up to a fearsome amount of lines for both ME games. Too bad BioWare couldn't write decent dialogue to save their lives. "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies
Gromnir Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) Every Single Time again, that were the point o' the wheel. if there were 3 dialogue choices on wheel, at least two would have same vo spoken line. vo is very expensive, and the wheel allows 1-spoken line o' vo to be having multiple interpretations. unfortunately, from a crpg pov, this leads to funneling of dialogues rather than bifurcation. dialogue wheel may be a necessary evil to makes full vo possible, but we is personally offended by the flimflammery that bioware indulged in when selling this "feature" to the gaming public... and as much as we is offended by the attempt to mislead and misdirect, we is even more surprised by their success. how did the biowarians pull off such a monumental Dr. Mesmer routine? HA! Good Fun! That's another problem with the wheel, though you're going into an hyperbole. I don't see much difference between that and offering you 10 unvoiced options which are answered the same way though. *chuckle* is amusing that you would indulge in hyperbole to identify Gromnir hyperbole. in any event, we will observe that having some responses seeming unaffected by your chosen dialogue is hardly unreasonable. no doubt you has been involved in a conversation in which you came to realize that no matter what you said, the person you were speaking to had already made up their mind. in any event, we does admire biowarian chutzpah. honestly, it takes some guts and guile to sell a resource saving device as a Gaming Innovation. if bioware had been honest and admitted that the real purpose o' the wheel were simply to save vo resources, people woulda' moaned, groaned and complained. instead bio convinces people that the wheel is a groundbreaking feature. amazing. btw, ap is a notoriously short game. no mystery. HA! Good Fun! Edited July 10, 2010 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Monte Carlo Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 successful and seeming intelligent citizens not want the stigma o' being exposed as fools. HA! Good Fun! Or, even worse, drooling fanbois.
Thorton_AP Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 instead o' dialogue bifurcation you gots dialogue... funneling. How frequently did separate dialogue choices (at the same point) in the ME games speak the same line of dialogue? I didn't really notice, but wasn't looking for it either. Every Single Time again, that were the point o' the wheel. if there were 3 dialogue choices on wheel, at least two would have same vo spoken line. vo is very expensive, and the wheel allows 1-spoken line o' vo to be having multiple interpretations. unfortunately, from a crpg pov, this leads to funneling of dialogues rather than bifurcation. Just to make sure I'm clear here, you're stating that every single dialogue option (I'll assume you're hyperbolizing a bit, and will allow for the odd exception) in the Mass Effect games had options that you could choose different paraphrases where the PC would actually speak the same line of dialogue?
Oblarg Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) Disregard, misread post. Edited July 10, 2010 by Oblarg "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies
Gromnir Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 instead o' dialogue bifurcation you gots dialogue... funneling. How frequently did separate dialogue choices (at the same point) in the ME games speak the same line of dialogue? I didn't really notice, but wasn't looking for it either. Every Single Time again, that were the point o' the wheel. if there were 3 dialogue choices on wheel, at least two would have same vo spoken line. vo is very expensive, and the wheel allows 1-spoken line o' vo to be having multiple interpretations. unfortunately, from a crpg pov, this leads to funneling of dialogues rather than bifurcation. Just to make sure I'm clear here, you're stating that every single dialogue option (I'll assume you're hyperbolizing a bit, and will allow for the odd exception) in the Mass Effect games had options that you could choose different paraphrases where the PC would actually speak the same line of dialogue? we didn't test the entire game, but we did do a substantial portion o' feros with wheel testing as our goal. we got bored after a while, but there were always a funneling effect with the wheel... always: fewer actual vo lines than wheel options. am willing to concede that we had maxed charm, so often we were dealing with an additional dialogue option than those players with lower persuasion skills. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Thorton_AP Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) No. He's claiming that every time a dialogue option pops up, at least two of them lead to the same line of dialogue, meaning you never had the number of choices that were actually displayed. I'm not sure this is true, but I can confirm that you end up with the same dialogue lines a lot, so it would make sense. I'm pretty sure that's what I asked, and what he answered. I don't understand the "No" comment, but whateves. Edited July 10, 2010 by Thorton_AP
mr insomniac Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 What worries me about this is, are we going to see from the narrator: "and after Hawke accomplished x he went under the radar for awhile, now we skip ahead six months to a time when Hawke resurfaces and this is what happened next..." The game spans ten years, and if that's how it's done... meh. I'd rather have one continuous adventure. dunno... am actually looking forward to the decade aspect. in a typical crpg your character goes from being an incompetent b00b who has trouble dispatching the rats in a tavern cellar, to world-saving demi-god in a matter o' weeks/months. if bioware can find an elegant way to embrace a more plausible time-frame for our inevitably epic ascension, we is gonna be appreciative rather than dismissive. HA! Good Fun! At least you get the fun of building your character and a sense of accomplishment along the way, while he/she goes from incompetent b00b to world-saving demigod. I'd rather Bio not take that away from me by having the narrator(s) tell me what happens from time to time in order to fill gaps. As you say, if it's done in an elegant and plausible way then great, I'm all for it as well. I just worry that it won't be. I took this job because I thought you were just a legend. Just a story. A story to scare little kids. But you're the real deal. The demon who dares to challenge God. So what the hell do you want? Don't seem to me like you're out to make this stinkin' world a better place. Why you gotta kill all my men? Why you gotta kill me? Nothing personal. It's just revenge.
Oblarg Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 No. He's claiming that every time a dialogue option pops up, at least two of them lead to the same line of dialogue, meaning you never had the number of choices that were actually displayed. I'm not sure this is true, but I can confirm that you end up with the same dialogue lines a lot, so it would make sense. I'm pretty sure that's what I asked, and what he answered. I don't understand the "No" comment, but whateves. Misread your post. "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies
Thorton_AP Posted July 10, 2010 Posted July 10, 2010 Wasn't the dialogue wheel typically something along the lines of: Friendly is upper right Direct is right Aggressive is lower right Paragon was upper left Investigate was to the left (and opened up other conversations) Renegade was lower left Occasionally Paragon and Renegade had other options. I think that's how it was in ME2 anyway.
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