Mexifornia

[Volourn]

Back on topic, a certain famous movie reviewer has decided to liken these teens as Nazis. All for daring to wear an Amerikan flag in Amerika. Extremists are scumbags and now that sadly includes one of my fave movie reviewers. Pathetic.

[Hurlshort]

Did you want to share the link? Or at least the name of the reviewer?

[lord of flies]

Your blatant bias and cherry picking has prompted me to respond. I was always sympathetic to leftist ideas but its because of people like you that we are viewed as no better than the taliban.

The only reasons Lenin embraced that policy is:

 

1) because he was sent from Switzerland on a train loaded with gold on a task (given to him by Germans) to incite revolt in the Russian empire. They gave him the funds in exchange for his efforts on the dissolution of the Russian empire.

and

2) because he couldn't find enough supporters for his absurd policies. Every other political idea, particularly left anarchism/anarcho communism had more supporters than the bolsheviks. Only by promising every single Tom, **** and Harry their own mini state could he garner enough support for bolshevik policies.

 

These are common knowledge and failing to mention them makes Lenin seem like some sort of patron saint of national liberation, instead of the typical calculating politician he was. His support for that policy stemmed only from the demands of the moment, not out of any sort of conviction.

lmao @ the idea that national self-determination was some idea that Lenin came up with in 1917 to win power.

 

Firstly, and foremost: the split between Lenin and Stalin that lead to what is now known as "Lenin's Testament," a collection of documents detailing his wishes for the future of the Soviet Union was caused, in large part, by Stalin's russo-chauvinistic involvement in the Georgian Affair; in this document he criticized both Great Russian chauvinism and Stalin. If Lenin did not care about national self-determination, he would not have held to these principles when he was already in (an admittedly fading, but to other communists) position of power.

 

Secondly, he was pro-nationalities all the way back in 1902, when he wrote in the Draft Programme for the RSDLP "For these reasons the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party advances ... a republic based on a democratic constitution that would ensure ... recognition of the right to self-determination for all nations forming part of the state"

 

In fact, the greatest heartland of support for Bolshevism was the urban centers of Russia. In the entire country (i.e. all of the Russian Empire, not simply the RSFSR) it was the second most popular political party going just by bourgeois politics. If you're looking for the policy that Lenin adopted in order to gain power, that would be his support for the peasant communes. Though, of course, Lenin held that the peasantry formed a fellow progressive class alongside the proletariat, so ceding to the progressive demands of the peasantry was also completely in line with his ideological bent.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Your blatant bias and cherry picking has prompted me to respond. I was always sympathetic to leftist ideas but its because of people like you that we are viewed as no better than the taliban.

The only reasons Lenin embraced that policy is:

 

1) because he was sent from Switzerland on a train loaded with gold on a task (given to him by Germans) to incite revolt in the Russian empire. They gave him the funds in exchange for his efforts on the dissolution of the Russian empire.

and

2) because he couldn't find enough supporters for his absurd policies. Every other political idea, particularly left anarchism/anarcho communism had more supporters than the bolsheviks. Only by promising every single Tom, **** and Harry their own mini state could he garner enough support for bolshevik policies.

 

These are common knowledge and failing to mention them makes Lenin seem like some sort of patron saint of national liberation, instead of the typical calculating politician he was. His support for that policy stemmed only from the demands of the moment, not out of any sort of conviction.

lmao @ the idea that national self-determination was some idea that Lenin came up with in 1917 to win power.

 

Firstly, and foremost: the split between Lenin and Stalin that lead to what is now known as "Lenin's Testament," a collection of documents detailing his wishes for the future of the Soviet Union was caused, in large part, by Stalin's russo-chauvinistic involvement in the Georgian Affair; in this document he criticized both Great Russian chauvinism and Stalin. If Lenin did not care about national self-determination, he would not have held to these principles when he was already in (an admittedly fading, but to other communists) position of power.

 

Secondly, he was pro-nationalities all the way back in 1902, when he wrote in the Draft Programme for the RSDLP "For these reasons the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party advances ... a republic based on a democratic constitution that would ensure ... recognition of the right to self-determination for all nations forming part of the state"

 

In fact, the greatest heartland of support for Bolshevism was the urban centers of Russia. In the entire country (i.e. all of the Russian Empire, not simply the RSFSR) it was the second most popular political party going just by bourgeois politics. If you're looking for the policy that Lenin adopted in order to gain power, that would be his support for the peasant communes. Though, of course, Lenin held that the peasantry formed a fellow progressive class alongside the proletariat, so ceding to the progressive demands of the peasantry was also completely in line with his ideological bent.

 

*sigh* yeah, yeah the germans and their gold had no part in it whatsoever.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I notice a lot of American politicians wear those little American Flag badges on their suit. Perhaps to be patriotic? I wonder if any of those politicians would have to take off their badges if they visited a school or any other function on Cinco de Mayo day.

[lord of flies]

I notice a lot of American politicians wear those little American Flag badges on their suit. Perhaps to be patriotic? I wonder if any of those politicians would have to take off their badges if they visited a school or any other function on Cinco de Mayo day.

Patriotism is a flag.

 

~America~

[Walsingham]

I notice a lot of American politicians wear those little American Flag badges on their suit.

 

Yeah, as if it wasn't clear which country they were from. I don't so much mind if it's a congressman, but the President?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Did you want to share the link? Or at least the name of the reviewer?

Roger Ebert, I think he's become an internet troll in his old age.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Did you want to share the link? Or at least the name of the reviewer?

Roger Ebert, I think he's become an internet troll in his old age.

 

You're kidding? I like reading the man's reviews but I didn't know he could be so shallow

[RPGmasterBoo]

Found it:

 

Let's begin with a fact few Americans know: Celebrating Cinco de Mayo is an American custom. The first such celebration was held in California in 1863, and they have continued without interruption. In Mexico itself it is not observed, except in the state of Puebla--the site of Mexico's underdog victory over the French on May 5, 1862.

 

Cinco de Mayo's purpose is to celebrate Mexican-American culture in the United States. We are a nation of immigrants, and have many such observances, for example St. Patrick's Day parades, which began in Boston in 1737 and not in Ireland until 1931. Or Pulaski Day, officially established in Illinois in 1977, and not observed in Poland. The first Chinese New Year's parade was held in San Francisco in the 1860s, and such parades began only later in China. In Chicago this August we will have the 81st annual Bud Billiken Parade, one of the largest parades in America, celebrating the African-American heritage.

 

I invite you to perform four easy thought experiments:

 

1. You and four friends are in Boston and attend the St. Patrick's Day parade wearing matching Union Jack t-shirts, which of course you have every right to do.

 

2. You and your pals are in Chicago on Pulaski Day, and wear a t-shirt with a photograph of Joseph Stalin, which is your right.

 

3. In San Francisco's Chinatown for the parade, your crowd wears t-shirts saying "My granddad was at the Rape of Nanking and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

 

4. In Chicago for the Bud Billiken Parade, you and your crowd, back in shape after three hospitalizations, turn up with matching t-shirts sporting the Confederate flag.

 

The question is obviously not whether Americans, or anyone else, has the right to wear our flag on their t-shirts. But empathetic people realize much depends on context. If, on Cinco de Mayo, you turn up at your school with a large Mexican-American student population wearing such shirts, are you (1) joining in the spirit of the holiday, or (2) looking for trouble?

 

I suggest you intend to insult your fellow students. Not because they do not respect THEIR flag, but because you do not respect their heritage. That there are five of you in matching shirts demonstrates you want to be deliberately provocative.

 

Therefore, you and your buddies should try wearing the hammer and sickle on the Fourth of July. You could try it at a NASCAR race, for example./quote]

 

A pile of nonsense.

 

All of his "thought experiments" are based on contradictions, yet there is no or shouldn't be a contradiction between the US and Mexican flags.

 

His only point is that they were looking for trouble. Okay.

 

He never says:

1) why they're obliged to respect mexican heritage or why is it exactly that a US flag is deemed offensive by the mexicans

2) why mexicans aren't obliged to respect the us flag (cos I'm sure respect has to be mutual to work)

 

Can someone inform us whether other country's flags are deemed offensive on fourth of July in the US?

[Hurlshort]

I notice a lot of American politicians wear those little American Flag badges on their suit. Perhaps to be patriotic? I wonder if any of those politicians would have to take off their badges if they visited a school or any other function on Cinco de Mayo day.

 

So we are comparing a small pin to a bandana and a T-shirt here?

[Oner]

I notice a lot of American politicians wear those little American Flag badges on their suit. Perhaps to be patriotic? I wonder if any of those politicians would have to take off their badges if they visited a school or any other function on Cinco de Mayo day.

 

So we are comparing a small pin to a bandana and a T-shirt here?

No, he's comparing one flag to another.

[Walsingham]

I accept his point that context matters, obviously. But those examples are a bit mendacious. What about wearing a union jack t-shirt during st patrick's day IN ENGLAND?

 

I think intent has to be factored in. If youre doing it to piss people off then it hardly matters what it is, you are a **** and should be flung off a church steeple.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Ebert is deliberately comparing something that really would be provocative to something that shouldn't be provocative to any American citizen. None of the celebrations he mentioned would be offended by someone wearing an American flag. Here's another editorial: http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/...at-morgan-hill/

[213374U]

Yeah, as if it wasn't clear which country they were from. I don't so much mind if it's a congressman, but the President?

To remind himself as to where his allegiance truly lies? You know, with all those lobbies, special interest groups and campaign donors, it's easy to lose track...

[RPGmasterBoo]

I accept his point that context matters, obviously. But those examples are a bit mendacious. What about wearing a union jack t-shirt during st patrick's day IN ENGLAND?

 

I think intent has to be factored in. If youre doing it to piss people off then it hardly matters what it is, you are a **** and should be flung off a church steeple.

 

Okay, but why should they be pissed off in this concrete case?

 

They can't justify "being disrespected" unless they covertly hate the US or something.

[Walsingham]

Yeah, as if it wasn't clear which country they were from. I don't so much mind if it's a congressman, but the President?

To remind himself as to where his allegiance truly lies? You know, with all those lobbies, special interest groups and campaign donors, it's easy to lose track...

 

:lol: "Note to self: ..."

 

EDIT: @Boo

 

Why they should be pissed off is a good question, with (I suspect) a complex answer. However, if a man came into my house doused in kerosene, no matter why I still wouldn't offer him a cigarette.

 

The more I think about it the more I see how world states arise from multiple equally vital contributory qualities/effects. Far too much time is spent pointing at the other guy and saying 'well he could fix it so he should'. One of the fundamentals of British Army training is if you see a problem don't wait for someone else to fix it. Pitch in.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Walsingham

[Hurlshort]

I notice a lot of American politicians wear those little American Flag badges on their suit. Perhaps to be patriotic? I wonder if any of those politicians would have to take off their badges if they visited a school or any other function on Cinco de Mayo day.

 

So we are comparing a small pin to a bandana and a T-shirt here?

No, he's comparing one flag to another.

 

I know that a lot of guys try to convince themselves otherwise, but size really does matter.

[Volourn]

That last article brings up a good point.. what would the reaction be if an (Mexican) Amerikan living in Mexico wore an Amerikan flag shirt on Independence Day? Even more to the point, what would the reaction be if other Mexican students decided to wear the Mexican colours that day/ Would they be accused of bigotry or would anyone even care?

 

To me, this is just abnother example, of how it's alright to bash the US/whites.

 

It should eb pointed out that two of five students are Mexican Amerikans. This is pure bigotry and/or self hatred.

 

Disgusting.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Volourn

[RPGmasterBoo]

Yeah, as if it wasn't clear which country they were from. I don't so much mind if it's a congressman, but the President?

To remind himself as to where his allegiance truly lies? You know, with all those lobbies, special interest groups and campaign donors, it's easy to lose track...

 

However, if a man came into my house doused in kerosene, no matter why I still wouldn't offer him a cigarette.

 

 

Right, but running around and jumping on fuses all the time before they blow in your face, like Wile E. Coyote isn't actually going to solve anything.

 

Just sayin'

[~Di]

Two of the five kids wearing those USA T-shirts are half Mexican themselves, and proud of it. These boys were just sitting at a table before school started when the vice-principal... also hispanic, btw... told them that if they went to class wearing them they'd be suspended. Now lots of kids were wearing shirts with Mexican flags on them. That was okay. American flag, not okay. Both Mexican flag T's and American flag T's have been repeatedly worn at this school throughout the school year with no repercussions at all. It was a bad call. The school district immediately overruled the vice-principal, who has since apologized.

 

Now for those who are busy calling 5 kids jerks for wearing their flag shirt, how about the 200 hispanic students who skipped classes the following day and marched to the school district building waving full-sized Mexican flags, demanding those five kids be suspended? What kind of punishment did the class-skipping, flag-waving marchers get? None. None at all.

 

It's fine for schools to make rules, but if they do not enforce those rules evenly and fairly, then the schools themselves are teaching a pretty poor lesson in race relations. When things go bad, it isn't always the "white" kids (or in this case, the perceived "white" kids) who are at fault, and simply belonging to a "minority" race does not give one license break rules, then cry "racism" if they are called to task for it.

Edited May 12, 2010 by ~Di

[Hurlshort]

Now for those who are busy calling 5 kids jerks for wearing their flag shirt, how about the 200 hispanic students who skipped classes the following day and marched to the school district building waving full-sized Mexican flags, demanding those five kids be suspended?

 

I believe I used the word punk, and yes the 200 kids who marched are also being punks.

 

Do you really believe these 5 students just innocently showed up with US flag bandanna's and matching T-shirts? They just happened to all coordinate their wardrobes on this day?

 

You have a series of bad decisions being made here. It started when these 5 boys decided to synchronize their clothing on a day of a Mexican Heritage Celebration. All parties should be held accountable.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Now for those who are busy calling 5 kids jerks for wearing their flag shirt, how about the 200 hispanic students who skipped classes the following day and marched to the school district building waving full-sized Mexican flags, demanding those five kids be suspended?

 

I believe I used the word punk, and yes the 200 kids who marched are also being punks.

 

Do you really believe these 5 students just innocently showed up with US flag bandanna's and matching T-shirts? They just happened to all coordinate their wardrobes on this day?

 

You have a series of bad decisions being made here. It started when these 5 boys decided to synchronize their clothing on a day of a Mexican Heritage Celebration. All parties should be held accountable.

One of the mothers (of a half caucasian half mexican student) interviewed said the shirt worn by him on that day is worn constantly in the household by both the father on one day and the son on another day. "Dariano said her son has at least four T-shirts with American flags that he wears often and did not try to cause any conflict at school."

 

' Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at the University of California-Los Angeles, said the students are protected under California Education Code 48950, which prohibits schools from enforcing a rule subjecting a high school student to disciplinary sanctions solely on the basis of conduct, that when engaged outside of campus, is protected by the First Amendment.

 

If the school could point to previous incidents sparked by students who wore garments with American flags, they could argue that the flag is likely to lead to "substantial disruption," Volokh said.

 

"If, for example, there had been fights over similar things at past events, if there had been specific threats made," he said. "But if [school officials] just say, 'Well, we think it might be offensive to people,' that's generally speaking not enough."

 

Volokh said the students and their parents likely have a winning case on their hands if they decide to take the matter to court.

 

"Oh yes, it's almost open and shut," he said.

 

Lis Wiehl, a former federal prosecutor and a Fox News legal analyst, said the incident appears to a "blatant" violation of the students' First Amendment right to free speech. She noted that inciting violence is an exception to a First Amendment legal defense, but Wiehl said she saw no indications that the students provoked anyone.

 

"Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a blatant violation of the First Amendment," said Wiehl, adding that uniforms are not required at the public school. "And they're wearing, of all horrific things, the American flag." '

[Walsingham]

Now for those who are busy calling 5 kids jerks for wearing their flag shirt, how about the 200 hispanic students who skipped classes the following day and marched to the school district building waving full-sized Mexican flags, demanding those five kids be suspended?

 

I believe I used the word punk, and yes the 200 kids who marched are also being punks.

 

Do you really believe these 5 students just innocently showed up with US flag bandanna's and matching T-shirts? They just happened to all coordinate their wardrobes on this day?

 

You have a series of bad decisions being made here. It started when these 5 boys decided to synchronize their clothing on a day of a Mexican Heritage Celebration. All parties should be held accountable.

 

I completely agree, as an ex-teacher myself. Is Steve around? Maybe he'll back us up too.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Now for those who are busy calling 5 kids jerks for wearing their flag shirt, how about the 200 hispanic students who skipped classes the following day and marched to the school district building waving full-sized Mexican flags, demanding those five kids be suspended?

 

I believe I used the word punk, and yes the 200 kids who marched are also being punks.

 

Do you really believe these 5 students just innocently showed up with US flag bandanna's and matching T-shirts? They just happened to all coordinate their wardrobes on this day?

 

You have a series of bad decisions being made here. It started when these 5 boys decided to synchronize their clothing on a day of a Mexican Heritage Celebration. All parties should be held accountable.

 

I completely agree, as an ex-teacher myself. Is Steve around? Maybe he'll back us up too.

 

The question is: were they feeling lucky?

 

 

Btw what's the excuse for not sending the 200 kids home as well?