Removal of all Socialism in the US!

[Guard Dog]

When businesses make money, they help me. Government doesn't, for the most part.

 

And by "for the most part" I mean everything other than roads, cops, and the military.

 

That is the most idiotic thing I have read in ages.

 

How, exactly, do business help you by making money?

 

If you owned stock in that company, if their stock is in your retirement fund, if you are a customer, if you are an employee, if you are on welfare (succesfull businesses pay more taxes, and their employees get paid more and pay more taxes), etc. Any questions?

 

Ever heard the expression "A rising tide lifts all boats?"

[I want teh kotor 3]

When businesses make money, they help me. Government doesn't, for the most part.

 

And by "for the most part" I mean everything other than roads, cops, and the military.

 

That is the most idiotic thing I have read in ages.

 

How, exactly, do business help you by making money?

 

Stock.

 

EDIT: Made it less douche-y.

Edited March 10, 2010 by I want teh kotor 3

[Gfted1]

Related to government meddling, big brother IS watching:

 

CDC uses shopper-card data to trace salmonella

 

Mar 10, 2:39 PM (ET)

 

By DAVID MERCER

 

CHAMPAIGN, Ill. (AP) - As they scrambled recently to trace the source of a salmonella outbreak that has sickened hundreds around the country, investigators from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention successfully used a new tool for the first time - the shopper cards that millions of Americans swipe every time they buy groceries.

 

With permission from the patients, investigators followed the trail of grocery purchases to a Rhode Island company that makes salami, then zeroed in on the pepper used to season the meat.

 

Never before had the CDC successfully mined the mountain of data that supermarket chains compile.

 

"It was really exciting. It was a break in the investigation for sure," CDC epidemiologist Casey Barton Behravesh said.

 

At least 245 people in 44 states have been sickened in the outbreak. That includes 30 in California, 19 in Illinois, 18 in New York and 17 in Washington state.

 

The victims included Raymond Cirimele, a 55-year-old Chicago man. He said no one asked for his shopper-card data, but he would have provided it if someone had.

 

"I don't have any secrets, so I'm not worried about it," he said. "It's kind of like the whole airport security and all that. I'd rather fly on a safe plane."

 

Shopper cards have been around for more than a decade, offering customers discounts in exchange for letting supermarkets track their buying habits. The cards are used to build customer loyalty and help stores market their products...~SNIP~

 

Seems innocent enough, right? Not so much. I think this is an excellent example of how anytime, anywhere, the government can overstep its boundries and mine every last detail of your life.

[Hurlshort]

So that sounds wonderful, the CDC can work with grocery chains to help limit the damage a bad batch of food can do. How is that intrusive?

[Gfted1]

Because its a goverment agency that can, at will, gather any information it likes without your permission. Did you see the bolded? What information do you think they will abuse when you're sucking off the "free" healthcare teat?

Edited March 10, 2010 by Gfted1

[Mamoulian War]

Related to government meddling, big brother IS watching:

 

CDC uses shopper-card data to trace salmonella

 

Mar 10, 2:39 PM (ET)

 

By DAVID MERCER

 

CHAMPAIGN, Ill. (AP) - As they scrambled recently to trace the source of a salmonella outbreak that has sickened hundreds around the country, investigators from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention successfully used a new tool for the first time - the shopper cards that millions of Americans swipe every time they buy groceries.

 

With permission from the patients, investigators followed the trail of grocery purchases to a Rhode Island company that makes salami, then zeroed in on the pepper used to season the meat.

 

Never before had the CDC successfully mined the mountain of data that supermarket chains compile.

 

"It was really exciting. It was a break in the investigation for sure," CDC epidemiologist Casey Barton Behravesh said.

 

At least 245 people in 44 states have been sickened in the outbreak. That includes 30 in California, 19 in Illinois, 18 in New York and 17 in Washington state.

 

The victims included Raymond Cirimele, a 55-year-old Chicago man. He said no one asked for his shopper-card data, but he would have provided it if someone had.

 

"I don't have any secrets, so I'm not worried about it," he said. "It's kind of like the whole airport security and all that. I'd rather fly on a safe plane."

 

Shopper cards have been around for more than a decade, offering customers discounts in exchange for letting supermarkets track their buying habits. The cards are used to build customer loyalty and help stores market their products...~SNIP~

 

Seems innocent enough, right? Not so much. I think this is an excellent example of how anytime, anywhere, the government can overstep its boundries and mine every last detail of your life.

 

Do you seriously think, that for example Microsoft and Google cannot trace you with even bigger accuracy, just by the things you type into google or bing search forms??? Or any other big corporation where you just filled out the registration and allowed them to install any kind of application into your computer??? And that they never oversteped it? just browse for some Google Buzz or Facebook privacy scandals... And you'll se how you and your privacy is absorbed and abused from your computer just to make more revenue for someone without you even knowing about it...

Edited March 10, 2010 by Mamoulian War

[Gfted1]

Do you seriously think, that for example Microsoft and Google cannot trace you with even bigger accuracy, just by the things you type into google or bing search forms??? Or any other big corporation where you just filled out the registration and allowed them to install any kind of application into your computer??? And that they never oversteped it? just browse for some Google Buzz or Facebook privacy scandals... And you'll se how you and your privacy is absorbed and abused from your computer just to make more revenue for someone without you even knowing about it...

 

Im not sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Are you saying that since business do it that its ok for the government? Do you feel privacy laws should be ignored to protect people from themselves? With the examples GD has provided, I would think its obvious that the government has significantly more power to effect your life than whichever random company is currently considered "evilest". As you pointed out in your post, those companies got slammed for those practices, whos going to police the government?

[213374U]

Because its a goverment agency that can, at will, gather any information it likes without your permission. Did you see the bolded? What information do you think they will abuse when you're sucking off the "free" healthcare teat?

You didn't read the part where it said that the investigation was carried out with permission from the patients?

 

 

Do you seriously think, that for example Microsoft and Google cannot trace you with even bigger accuracy, just by the things you type into google or bing search forms??? Or any other big corporation where you just filled out the registration and allowed them to install any kind of application into your computer??? And that they never oversteped it? just browse for some Google Buzz or Facebook privacy scandals... And you'll se how you and your privacy is absorbed and abused from your computer just to make more revenue for someone without you even knowing about it...

Gfted at least posted a specific news item to make his case. You are just fearmongering.

 

Any installation you don't consent to is illegal. Search engines can only detect patterns in search trends, but they cannot track the activites of individual users. As for privacy scandals on social networks... maybe you should be more careful about whom you give access to your personal data? Just a thought.

[Mamoulian War]

Because its a goverment agency that can, at will, gather any information it likes without your permission. Did you see the bolded? What information do you think they will abuse when you're sucking off the "free" healthcare teat?

You didn't read the part where it said that the investigation was carried out with permission from the patients?

 

 

Do you seriously think, that for example Microsoft and Google cannot trace you with even bigger accuracy, just by the things you type into google or bing search forms??? Or any other big corporation where you just filled out the registration and allowed them to install any kind of application into your computer??? And that they never oversteped it? just browse for some Google Buzz or Facebook privacy scandals... And you'll se how you and your privacy is absorbed and abused from your computer just to make more revenue for someone without you even knowing about it...

Gfted at least posted a specific news item to make his case. You are just fearmongering.

 

Any installation you don't consent to is illegal. Search engines can only detect patterns in search trends, but they cannot track the activites of individual users. As for privacy scandals on social networks... maybe you should be more careful about whom you give access to your personal data? Just a thought.

 

Then check this out

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/karansri27#p/u

 

The Virtual Revolution - The Cost of Free

 

Look all the parts... in one of them you can see how it was possible to locate the exact person with the help of AOL anonymous patterns in search trends it was published in some of the US news aswell...

 

 

EDIT: it's in part 5 starts at 4:10... user 4417749...

Edited March 10, 2010 by Mamoulian War

[I want teh kotor 3]

Related to government meddling, big brother IS watching:

 

CDC uses shopper-card data to trace salmonella

 

Mar 10, 2:39 PM (ET)

 

By DAVID MERCER

 

CHAMPAIGN, Ill. (AP) - As they scrambled recently to trace the source of a salmonella outbreak that has sickened hundreds around the country, investigators from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention successfully used a new tool for the first time - the shopper cards that millions of Americans swipe every time they buy groceries.

 

With permission from the patients, investigators followed the trail of grocery purchases to a Rhode Island company that makes salami, then zeroed in on the pepper used to season the meat.

 

Never before had the CDC successfully mined the mountain of data that supermarket chains compile.

 

"It was really exciting. It was a break in the investigation for sure," CDC epidemiologist Casey Barton Behravesh said.

 

At least 245 people in 44 states have been sickened in the outbreak. That includes 30 in California, 19 in Illinois, 18 in New York and 17 in Washington state.

 

The victims included Raymond Cirimele, a 55-year-old Chicago man. He said no one asked for his shopper-card data, but he would have provided it if someone had.

 

"I don't have any secrets, so I'm not worried about it," he said. "It's kind of like the whole airport security and all that. I'd rather fly on a safe plane."

 

Shopper cards have been around for more than a decade, offering customers discounts in exchange for letting supermarkets track their buying habits. The cards are used to build customer loyalty and help stores market their products...~SNIP~

 

Seems innocent enough, right? Not so much. I think this is an excellent example of how anytime, anywhere, the government can overstep its boundries and mine every last detail of your life.

 

Do you seriously think, that for example Microsoft and Google cannot trace you with even bigger accuracy, just by the things you type into google or bing search forms??? Or any other big corporation where you just filled out the registration and allowed them to install any kind of application into your computer??? And that they never oversteped it? just browse for some Google Buzz or Facebook privacy scandals... And you'll se how you and your privacy is absorbed and abused from your computer just to make more revenue for someone without you even knowing about it...

 

In almost all of those cases, the fault lies in the user, for being careless with his computer. And google and co. can only trace trends, not users...

[Zachariah Tam]

Because its a goverment agency that can, at will, gather any information it likes without your permission. Did you see the bolded? What information do you think they will abuse when you're sucking off the "free" healthcare teat?

 

Just to point out that corporations could use that data as well. They could use it to track consumer trends, see which type of products are more popular, and eventually make specialized products for a niche group for efficiently.

[Mamoulian War]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/technology/09aol.html

 

here is the full story about how a person was located based only on anonymous searching trends...

[Walsingham]

I don't think he was saying it was OK for govt to do it if corps do it. But it is pure hypocrisy for us as citizens to object to a government doing something when we freely allow a private company to do it for no better reason than to fleece us more efficiently. I simply cannot understand what planet you chaps are from where companies are these inoffensive subservient entities. Simple creatures, like grazing cattle. For christ's sake half the bloody threads on this forum are about how fething weird manipulative and obnoxious they are.

 

Incidentally i mentioned the beach house example to a friend of mine today and his reaction was more succinct than mine. he observed that - were it not for the government - the corporation would not have had to go via the government to seize the land. They would simply have seized the land.

[Mamoulian War]

I don't think he was saying it was OK for govt to do it if corps do it. But it is pure hypocrisy for us as citizens to object to a government doing something when we freely allow a private company to do it for no better reason than to fleece us more efficiently.

 

Thank you, that was exactly what i was trying to say... blame my english as a 3rd language to not explain myself good enough...

[Walsingham]

I don't think he was saying it was OK for govt to do it if corps do it. But it is pure hypocrisy for us as citizens to object to a government doing something when we freely allow a private company to do it for no better reason than to fleece us more efficiently.

 

Thank you, that was exactly what i was trying to say... blame my english as a 3rd language to not explain myself good enough...

 

No problem, mate. There are several people on here who claim English is their first language who make no damn sense at all.

[Zachariah Tam]

Isn't that the truth of it. Basic language skills and arithmetic seem to be in a downward spiral here.

[Hurlshort]

So is there a scenario here where the government will look at your grocery bill, and then offer health care based on your diet? Awesome!

[213374U]

http://www.youtube.com/user/karansri27#p/u

 

The Virtual Revolution - The Cost of Free

 

Look all the parts... in one of them you can see how it was possible to locate the exact person with the help of AOL anonymous patterns in search trends it was published in some of the US news aswell...

 

 

EDIT: it's in part 5 starts at 4:10... user 4417749...

Uh, no. Actually, AOL released a bunch of raw data on user searches, sorted by user #. It was actually a NYT journalist that put everything together and found out who user #1235235343143524 actually was. And then his work is being used to spread fear on how evil computer giants use our private data to snoop around. The virtual equivalent of someone going through your trash. Stop the presses! Investigative journalists actually investigate!

 

It's funny, because I'm wondering how they could do that to me, based on what's shown in that documentary. I have a dynamic IP and know what free proxies are, I clear my cookies regularly and don't give away private data. How does AOL assign a user #?

 

See, it's the same old, same old with these things. People trying to avoid assuming responsibility for their actions or their lack of knowledge. Everyone wants to browse the internets, but learning the basics of privacy protection is boring! Let the gov't do it for me! I pay my taxes!

 

[Oblarg]

When businesses make money, they help me. Government doesn't, for the most part.

 

And by "for the most part" I mean everything other than roads, cops, and the military.

 

That is the most idiotic thing I have read in ages.

 

How, exactly, do business help you by making money?

 

If you owned stock in that company, if their stock is in your retirement fund, if you are a customer, if you are an employee, if you are on welfare (succesfull businesses pay more taxes, and their employees get paid more and pay more taxes), etc. Any questions?

 

Ever heard the expression "A rising tide lifts all boats?"

 

Profit comes from somewhere. Your benefit is almost always at the expense of someone else. A blanket statement such as "I make money when business make money, therefore I'd rather trust business" is pure idiocy - I'm very sure there are businesses that make money at your expense, as well, even if you don't realize it.

[Guard Dog]

When businesses make money, they help me. Government doesn't, for the most part.

 

And by "for the most part" I mean everything other than roads, cops, and the military.

 

That is the most idiotic thing I have read in ages.

 

How, exactly, do business help you by making money?

 

If you owned stock in that company, if their stock is in your retirement fund, if you are a customer, if you are an employee, if you are on welfare (succesfull businesses pay more taxes, and their employees get paid more and pay more taxes), etc. Any questions?

 

Ever heard the expression "A rising tide lifts all boats?"

 

Profit comes from somewhere. Your benefit is almost always at the expense of someone else. A blanket statement such as "I make money when business make money, therefore I'd rather trust business" is pure idiocy - I'm very sure there are businesses that make money at your expense, as well, even if you don't realize it.

 

That is called Zero Sum Economics. It does not exist in open free market economies. So you are either uninformed or from Cuba.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

I don't think he was saying it was OK for govt to do it if corps do it. But it is pure hypocrisy for us as citizens to object to a government doing something when we freely allow a private company to do it for no better reason than to fleece us more efficiently. I simply cannot understand what planet you chaps are from where companies are these inoffensive subservient entities. Simple creatures, like grazing cattle. For christ's sake half the bloody threads on this forum are about how fething weird manipulative and obnoxious they are.

 

Incidentally i mentioned the beach house example to a friend of mine today and his reaction was more succinct than mine. he observed that - were it not for the government - the corporation would not have had to go via the government to seize the land. They would simply have seized the land.

 

Jesus Christ Wals, I don't know how it is in England but in the US one private entity cannot... CAN NOT... seize the private property of another private entity. Only governments can seize your property against your will and give you nothing in return. I really don't understand why I'm having so much difficulty getting you to see this!

[Hurlshort]

There is quite a bit of recourse in the US you can go through if the government siezes your land. It still isn't pretty, but you are not completely at their mercy.

[Guard Dog]

There is quite a bit of recourse in the US you can go through if the government siezes your land. It still isn't pretty, but you are not completely at their mercy.

 

Think not? The Kelo case it was litigated for five years before the court awarded the property to the city. During the time the city was injoined from developing the property, the houses still stood, the people still lived in them. After the decision the City evicted the people, bulldozed the houses and then sued to homeowners for five years of back rent. Not only did they lose everything, they founf themselves tens of thousands of dallars in debt, to say nothing of swamped in legal bills from the fight. Some mercy huh.

 

You ever had to deal with the IRS Hurlie? You are utterly at their mercy and you would find their mercy lacking.

 

Right now out in Wyoming and Colorado the US Government is using Emminent Domain to seize privately owned ranchlands and add to a federal WMA. I am watching that one very closely because my home borders the Anderson Tully WMA on the entire southern property line. If they try to seize my home they had best be prepared to kill me for it. Because, by God in heaven, I will fight to keep it.

[Zachariah Tam]

Jesus Christ Wals, I don't know how it is in England but in the US one private entity cannot... CAN NOT... seize the private property of another private entity. Only governments can seize your property against your will and give you nothing in return. I really don't understand why I'm having so much difficulty getting you to see this!

 

I believe theft is seizing a private entity's property by another private entity. Without government, there wouldn't be laws against such actions. I do believe that is Walsingham's point.

[Oblarg]

When businesses make money, they help me. Government doesn't, for the most part.

 

And by "for the most part" I mean everything other than roads, cops, and the military.

 

That is the most idiotic thing I have read in ages.

 

How, exactly, do business help you by making money?

 

If you owned stock in that company, if their stock is in your retirement fund, if you are a customer, if you are an employee, if you are on welfare (succesfull businesses pay more taxes, and their employees get paid more and pay more taxes), etc. Any questions?

 

Ever heard the expression "A rising tide lifts all boats?"

 

Profit comes from somewhere. Your benefit is almost always at the expense of someone else. A blanket statement such as "I make money when business make money, therefore I'd rather trust business" is pure idiocy - I'm very sure there are businesses that make money at your expense, as well, even if you don't realize it.

 

That is called Zero Sum Economics. It does not exist in open free market economies. So you are either uninformed or from Cuba.

 

You missed my point. Yes, economies grow, that's a given (at least, until you run out of resources and people start dying). No, that does not mean businesses protect your interests better than government.

 

Take, for example, a car company. Say this car company realizes there's something wrong with one of their lines of cars (in before Toyota reference). The company will only recall the car if they judge that it is profitable to do so ("profitable" being they lose less money). That is not in the best interest of the customer - there's a direct conflict of interest.

 

Government doesn't exist to make money, it exists (ideally) for the sole purpose of protecting the interests of the people it governs. I really can't see any logical reason to trust the former with your interests over the latter.

 

I'm tired of people spewing crap about how the free market supposedly is the absolute best way to distribute wealth based on merit. It's not. It's also not the best way to ensure the highest quality of life for the collective. Unregulated free market economies result in wealth concentrated among a few lucky (not necessarily skilled) individuals.