Dragon Age discussion

[HoonDing]

This is what I don't understand about people praising MOTB to the heavens. The whole plot could be easily resolved if Safia's mother just thought to pass the sword of the Gith along with her, instead of you going through all the rigamarol.

I believe that was what she had intended. Problem was that Araman killed Lienna (or whatever she was called) and started a little revolt in the Academy of Shapers & Binders.

Edited February 25, 2010 by virumor

[Volourn]

Sure, it would have been cool for this to be allowed; but either way MOTB is awesome. That's all that matters.

[Wrath of Dagon]

This is what I don't understand about people praising MOTB to the heavens. The whole plot could be easily resolved if Safia's mother just thought to pass the sword of the Gith along with her, instead of you going through all the rigamarol.

I believe that was what she had intended. Problem was that Araman killed Lienna (or whatever she was called) and started a little revolt in the Academy of Shapers & Binders.

But not before she sent Safia. Since she knew you'd need the sword, she should've just sent it with Safia.

[~Di]

Blech. I'm now reminded about some, but not all, of the reasons I really, really disliked MoTB. Thanks.

[Enoch]

Blech. I'm now reminded about some, but not all, of the reasons I really, really disliked MoTB. Thanks.

"[R]eally, really disliked" is probably too strong a statement for me, but I wasn't particularly enchanted with it. I find it very difficult to take FR cosmology seriously, which made the moments that were supposed to be profound rather humdrum. ("Oh, look, a dead god-- don't they kill, like, three of them off every year?") Also, epic-level D&D is teh sukk. I was so bored with the combat that I stopped playing for months once I finally had that chat with Safiya's mum and resolved the central mystery of the plot. Had to force myself to keep on and play until the end.

[Volourn]

Dissing Obsidian's best game. Bah.

[RPGmasterBoo]

For once I have to agree with Volourn.

 

If MotB was "bad" then what's good?

 

As far as epic fantasy is concerned, there are only two RPG's after ToB that I can be bothered with - MotB and the Witcher. Everything else on offer: (and the list isn't that long) NWN, NWN2, Morrowind, Drakensang, Fable, Oblivion, Gothic 3, Jade Empire, Dragon Age - is fodder.

 

*notable exception of Gothic 1 and 2 because of their really "living" worlds

Edited February 26, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Guest Slinky]

To me it's interesting to read different opinions on games, expecially RPG's. It becomes quite clear how impossible it is to make any kind of TOP games list of ultimate truth, because everybody look for different things in games. Like Enoch got bored playing MotB because of the combat. I in the other hand absolutely love the game for the story and the atmosphere. Sure, the combat is pretty much just bombarding with epic spells, but I don't care because combat is the last thing in my list of important stuff in RPG's.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I in the other hand absolutely love the game for the story and the atmosphere. Sure, the combat is pretty much just bombarding with epic spells, but I don't care because combat is the last thing in my list of important stuff in RPG's.

 

Which is why we usually agree about RPG's. If it doesn't have an original plot and/or outstanding atmosphere its not worth my time. Everything else is less important.

[213374U]

Also, epic-level D&D is teh sukk. I was so bored with the combat that I stopped playing for months once I finally had that chat with Safiya's mum and resolved the central mystery of the plot. Had to force myself to keep on and play until the end.

This is exactly how I felt. In fact, I stopped playing for so long I actually lost my saves and had to start over. And I only did it because of the hype surrounding the game.

 

 

Sure, the combat is pretty much just bombarding with epic spells, but I don't care because combat is the last thing in my list of important stuff in RPG's.

That's fine. For me, games are first about playing, then about narrative. I have yet to see something that convinces me that solid gameplay must be at odds with a storytelling of similar quality. MotB nailed the atmosphere, the characters and (most of) the plot, but for me that's only half the game.

[HoonDing]

Enemy wizards needing 'epic gnolls' in order to protect themselves, is a bit ridiculous.

 

At epic levels, any enemy wizard should be able to rape an unprepared party, like in TOB. But in MOTB everything comes down on spamming level 9 spells or the occasional Vampiric Feast... it's not even strictly necessary to cast protections or buffs on the party, which is pretty lame.

[Tigranes]

To be fair, you could get even more brokenly OP in TOB - Time Stop + Improved Alacrity + Horrid Wilting, load up on contingencies, not to mention fighter whirlwind attacks and super-uber-loot.

 

But then, it was actually quite fun. I had fun with MOTB combat too, somehow, it's not bad if you pretend Vampiric Feast doesn't exist.

 

In the end I treated it like PS:T, The Longest Journey, Beyond Good & Evil, etc; the 'gameplay' is pretty subpar, but not that bad and the story is definitely worth it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Game Banshee has a review of DA up. It pretty much summarizes my thoughts on the game:

 

http://www.gamebanshee.com/reviews/96948-d...ge-origins.html

 

If I had to come up with a single phrase to describe DA:O, it would be very professionally done, with numerous goofy exceptions. The game is smoothly executed. Everything fits together well. It looks good. The faces of the NPCs draw you in. The music stirs the heart. The voice actors are well chosen. The party dialog is vivid. There are strange anomalies, such as hand poisoning, and corpses loaded down with safety net products, and a walking, talking DLC ad in your camp. The latter are the price of the admission for the former, and if you want the game you just have to accept the bizarre flaws as the price to pay for everything else.

 

Yet at the same time, I get no sense from the game of a giant creative vision, or even a strong imagination. It is an exceptionally slick hack-n-slash, and a good example of what this new engine and system can do. The structure is there, with some tweaking, for an RPG that could do a lot more. DA:O

[Starwars]

That's fine. For me, games are first about playing, then about narrative. I have yet to see something that convinces me that solid gameplay must be at odds with a storytelling of similar quality. MotB nailed the atmosphere, the characters and (most of) the plot, but for me that's only half the game.

 

I think it's a bit unfair to a lot of RPGs to seperate the story from the gameplay though. I'd say that MotBs combat is pretty subpar (though I like the variety in encounters throughout the game) but I'd still hold it as a damn good example of RPG gameplay overall. Why? Because you, the player, is really important in how the shape of the story turns out. It's one of the best examples in my mind on how to do a story-heavy RPG. The narrative is undoubtedly quite "heavy" but you're almost always given a choice on how you wish to handle things, and many times there are consequences to your actions.

 

I won't dismiss the combat's importance, the game is D&D and combat-heavy. But I think we should get away from the viewpoint that gameplay in RPGs are about beating things up. It's a lot more than that. It's the same with Planescape: Torment. People always complain about the gameplay, and say how the combat sucks. But the story is interactive in many ways. You, the player, has the power to uncover the clues. The way you build your character will affect how well you can do this. You have an option on how to resolve many of these things. That's gameplay as well.

[213374U]

^ Interesting point, but I'm going to have to disagree that plot interactivity mechanics are "gameplay". A fundamental part of games is challenge, or more accurately, the ability to lose the game. You can choose a way of conducting your character that will lead to the worst possible set of consequences, but you cannot very well "lose".

 

Similarly, you don't "play" choose-your-own-adventure books - you read them. To me that's simply different, more or less elegant and involved ways of presenting the story, but they belong to the narrative aspect of the game, not the actual gameplay.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I judge an RPG by how much interesting stuff it has for me to do. That's why I consider KOTOR 2 one of the greatest games, and even NWN2 (though fairly average) to be better than MOTB.

[Enoch]

To clarify: I found MotB's story compelling enough to suffer through all the fighting, up until the point where the "wot's this all about" mystery is solved-- i.e., when you finally get to chat with Safiya's mum. Without the mystery, the third act was just another "go talk to X and fetch Y." (Sure, X was a god and Y was my soul, but as I mentioned earlier, it's tough for me to read all that FR cosmology stuff and not laugh.) The character writing was 'pretty good,' but not fantastic-- better than based NWN2 or Dragon Age, but not up to the KotOR2/P:ST standard. (Safiya and Daughter-of-Trias had something to them, but I just found Son-of-Ravel annoying. And most of my curiousity about them was satisfied once I got them up to 100 influence.)

 

 

@ Boo, that is a decent review. It does over-emphasize some of the negative stuff, but reading it in concert with some of the more breathless early reviews would lead to a pretty accurate view of the game.

[Hurlshort]

I didn't dig MotB all that much either, but I think it was more my general apathy for D&D and this setting in particular. I'm just burnt out on it, I played NWN1 and 2 a ton and when I got to MotB it was just a chore to deal with the whole system.

 

Plus I hate D&D after about level 12.

[Bos_hybrid]

Half the reason I rate MOTB so highly was due to the fact it wasn't a 'save the world/universe' story, it was about the PC. The other half was because you could actually play a villain and get a satisfying ending. The characters themselves weren't that great IMO. The best two couldn't be had at the same time (OoM/Okku) and I can barely remember the rest.

 

When it comes down to it, I don't give Awakening much chance of being as good as MOTB.

[deganawida]

I'm wondering how you have DA2 without Grey Wardens / Darkspawn / Blights etc. It seems to be the core of the setting.

 

Not that I'd mind, I think Thedas is interesting enough to support a totally different plot but I just can't see Bio making the leap out of such an obvious comfort zone.

 

My theory is this: Origins and Awakening are designed to show the (magical) evolution of, for lack of a better term, orcs on Thedas. As has been mentioned before, the darkspawn origin story is remarkably similar to how Tolkien's orcs were created. The Awakening dude is like the first truly sentient and in-control darkspawn, and one of the novels revealed that he wanted to create more like himself. The game ends

with s vignette explaining how the darkspawn are acting oddly and going off on their own, even with the archdemon dead; they're not mindless and retreating anymore.

Finally, it would make the "Origins" subtitle of the first game make more sense than simply referring to a design feature, as it would feature the moment when the darkspawn began to become more than a mindless horde and started to develop societies. "Awakening" would further that.

 

Just an idea, thought that I'd throw it out there.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I didn't dig MotB all that much either, but I think it was more my general apathy for D&D and this setting in particular. I'm just burnt out on it, I played NWN1 and 2 a ton and when I got to MotB it was just a chore to deal with the whole system.

 

Plus I hate D&D after about level 12.

Try Mysteries of Westgate if you haven't already.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Half the reason I rate MOTB so highly was due to the fact it wasn't a 'save the world/universe' story, it was about the PC. The other half was because you could actually play a villain and get a satisfying ending. The characters themselves weren't that great IMO. The best two couldn't be had at the same time (OoM/Okku) and I can barely remember the rest.

 

When it comes down to it, I don't give Awakening much chance of being as good as MOTB.

 

When I started this discussion I meant that Awakening could represent that jump in quality that MotB was over NWN2 in terms of plot and characters. I didn't think they'd actually make anything like MotB, because the "play it safe 110%" strategy that they've adopted will simply never yield such a game.

To make a game like MotB means you're willing to take the risk of creating a major financial failure. Same as PS:T only not as extreme, since PS:T had an alien setting as well as a metaphysical plot.

Bioware won't do it. *shrugs*

 

Now, seeing the early character trailers, I think even a modest jump in quality was too much to hope for.

[Maria Caliban]

I'm wondering how you have DA2 without Grey Wardens / Darkspawn / Blights etc. It seems to be the core of the setting.

 

It's the core of the first story. The setting is much larger. For that reason alone, they need to not have the Warden or the Blight show up in DA2. Imagine if people thought the Bhaalspawn and the Sword Coast were all the Forgotten Realms setting had to offer.

 

Well what else is there to say? [Followed by two paragraphs of saying stuff]

 

I was just looking for details. Awakening looks to have epic level nonsense. We know that the developers had a limited budget and it was rushed out because the longer you wait for an xpac, the less profitable it will be.

 

The one thing I see Awakening as having that Origins seriously lacked is a good antagonist. The Architect isn

[RPGmasterBoo]

We know that the developers had a limited budget and it was rushed out because the longer you wait for an xpac, the less profitable it will be.

 

You knew that, its news to me. Not exactly good news at that.

 

...

 

Obviously I got pwned in DA lore knowledge. That aside the point of the suggestions was clear - relocate the plot to a more interesting part of the world (Tevinter Imperium being just an option), and make it have more nuance. Mostly just the latter.

[Maria Caliban]

Penny Arcade is doing an Awakening Comic

 

Another companion: Sigrun. Ferret Boudin talks about Sigrun here.

 

Ferret designed the stronghold aspects of NWN2 and is the lead designer of Awakening. In Awakening, we get Virgil's Keep as a stronghold.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Maria Caliban