China has hissy fit about US arms sales to Taiwan

[Humodour]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world...00130-n5p3.html

 

Somebody remind me how many times a year the Chinese government throws these tantrums? I've lost count. I know it's threw tantrums at India, Australia, America, Canada, and the EU (as well as specific EU nations) last year, with the usual multitude of thinly-veiled threats.

[Syraxis]

China needs to get over the fact that everyone else recognizes Taiwan as a separate state.

[Meshugger]

[devil's advocate]

 

But Taiwan has always been chinese! Why are you guys meddling with chinese domestic affairs? Shame on you, you hypocritical bastards!

 

[/devil's advocate]

Edited January 30, 2010 by Meshugger

[Humodour]

[devil's advocate]

 

But Taiwan has always been chinese! Why are you guys meddling with chinese domestic affairs? Shame on you, you hypocritical bastards!

 

[/devil's advocate]

 

Yeah! Screw what the Taiwanese themselves think!

 

Honestly, I had a Chinese nationalist say exactly that to me yesterday, Meshugger. Makes me sick.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Actually there are only 23 countries that have official relations with Taiwan, most of them completely irrelevant in world affairs. The only reason they keep relations with Taiwan is probably to appease the US.

 

Taiwan's position as a recognized independent state is far from secure, and China won't accept it nor is it obliged to.

 

The US uses it in a game of balancing Chinese power, but in the long run it will, one way or the other be integrated into the Chinese state. It will either merge economically which the Chinese are working at diligently or it will be conquered, though in the end there may be no need for that.

[Gorgon]

Politically high impact arms deals are surely problematic in their own right. The US has an arms industry that needs customers, and the president can't refuse sales without extraordinary circumstances, he has to distabilise the world with one hand and stablilise it with the other.

[Meshugger]

[devil's advocate]

 

But Taiwan has always been chinese! Why are you guys meddling with chinese domestic affairs? Shame on you, you hypocritical bastards!

 

[/devil's advocate]

 

Yeah! Screw what the Taiwanese themselves think!

 

Honestly, I had a Chinese nationalist say exactly that to me yesterday, Meshugger. Makes me sick.

 

[devil's advocate]

 

You western imperalists have no insight or understandment of eastern culture! We have history where you do not! Your vision only undermines the nation of China. We will never become your Balkan!"

 

[/devil's advocate]

 

Those guys are hilarious. It is like talking to a random context-free-language generator. Those guys have no real thought of their own.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Meshugger

[Killian Kalthorne]

I say we royally piss off the Chinese. Offer Taiwan to be a territory of the US, with all the rights and privileges, and make an effort to move our military headquarters in that region from Okinawa to that nation.

[213374U]

Yeah! Screw what the Taiwanese themselves think!

Not that I disagree with what you mean, but it's necessary to keep in mind that the current state of affairs in the ROC is the result of a civil war that never saw proper closure. It's difficult to establish what "people" want, when the fractures are so deep as to lead to civil war.

 

I'm thinking "up yours, Mao", but then I realize the ridiculous scenario that would have resulted if the Spanish Republic had "relocated" to the Balearic Islands during the SCW, never formally surrendered, and the French had blocked any Nationalist attempts to invade ever since.

 

It's a ****ed up situation, that's for sure.

[Syraxis]

I say we royally piss off the Chinese. Offer Taiwan to be a territory of the US, with all the rights and privileges, and make an effort to move our military headquarters in that region from Okinawa to that nation.

 

Even simpler.

 

Since Taiwan wants the F-16's so badly, let's give them a prototype F-35 Lighting II (the planned replacement) as a symbol of "trust, continued cooperation, and friendship".

 

Quick, albeit expensive way to troll China.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Syraxis

[Wrath of Dagon]

Actually US recognizes Taiwan is a part of China, it just insists that reunification takes place peacefully and preserves the Taiwanese democracy, sort of like Hong Kong.

[Tigranes]

Every country throws tantrums, it's how international relations work. China throws tantrums about Taiwan, Russia throws tantrums about its neighbours, North Korea throws tantrums to get rice, the US, Europe, etc, etc.

 

As Boo says China has no reason to let go of Taiwan yet, there aren't any real disadvantages to maintaining its claim.

[Masterfade]

Actually there are only 23 countries that have official relations with Taiwan, most of them completely irrelevant in world affairs. The only reason they keep relations with Taiwan is probably to appease the US.

 

More like appeasing the Vatican, I'd say.

[Meshugger]

Actually there are only 23 countries that have official relations with Taiwan, most of them completely irrelevant in world affairs. The only reason they keep relations with Taiwan is probably to appease the US.

 

More like appeasing the Vatican, I'd say.

 

[Masterfade]

Actually there are only 23 countries that have official relations with Taiwan, most of them completely irrelevant in world affairs. The only reason they keep relations with Taiwan is probably to appease the US.

 

More like appeasing the Vatican, I'd say.

 

 

The Vatican is the only Western state recognizing Taiwan and it just so happened most countries with diplomatic relations with Taiwan are predominantly Roman Catholic, according to my quick wiki searches anyway. I'd be surprised if such correlation is incidental.

[Meshugger]

Actually there are only 23 countries that have official relations with Taiwan, most of them completely irrelevant in world affairs. The only reason they keep relations with Taiwan is probably to appease the US.

 

More like appeasing the Vatican, I'd say.

 

 

The Vatican is the only Western state recognizing Taiwan and it just so happened most countries with diplomatic relations with Taiwan are predominantly Roman Catholic, according to my quick wiki searches anyway. I'd be surprised if such correlation is incidental.

 

That's quite interesting, considering that only 4 percent of the their population is christian of any sort. I couldn't find any numbers on Roman-catholics.

 

The tinfoil-hat approach doesn't work either, since Sovereign Military Order of Malta has no diplomatic relations with Taiwan

[Walsingham]

Politically high impact arms deals are surely problematic in their own right.

 

I misread this as 'romantic in their own right'. Which would be awesome. Let's call it awesomelexia.

 

Taiwan is such a strange thing. An independent state which is allowed to be so provided it never actually says it is. I can't think of any other sphere of politics in which so much rests on a simple word, and nothing more. I don't know how sensible it is, but it always seems to me that nothing illustrates the peculiarity of Chinese politics than this issue.

 

I don't think there is anything much to be worried about here tho. The Chinese were bound to complain and the US was bound to go through with the supply.

 

Having said that, should relations with China deteriorate it is always very possible that they would invade. Particularly as they may reason it gives them an excuse to further clamp down on internal dissent 'in time of war'.

[RPGmasterBoo]

I don't see what's peculiar about Chinese policy on Taiwan. They consider it a part of their state and will not change their opinion. Basically no one wants to or can, for that matter offer something to China to change its mind, which it has no reason to do so in the first place.

 

That's all there is to it.

[Humodour]

I don't see what's peculiar about Chinese policy on Taiwan. They consider it a part of their state and will not change their opinion. Basically no one wants to or can, for that matter offer something to China to change its mind, which it has no reason to do so in the first place.

 

That's all there is to it.

 

That's not all there is to it. There's the aspect that Taiwan has been independent (de facto) from China for more than 50 years, has a completely different political system, government, and has also evolved because of this a distinct cultural attitude (similar as they are on other matters culturally).

 

Then again, I'm guessing you think Kosovo 'belongs' to the Serbs, right? Pfft.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm guessing you think Perth belongs to Australia and not to the Aborigines.

[Humodour]

I'm guessing you think Perth belongs to Australia and not to the Aborigines.

 

No, actually I full support Native Title, and you just made one of your more idiotic post just then with that pathetic attempt at analogy.

 

The issues of Kosovo or Taiwan's independence are not related to Native Title. At all.

 

Edit: And indeed, it is ironic that you should bring it up, because I would be surprised to see China enact anything near as progressive as Native Title for its indigenous populations. C.f. Uyghurs, Tibetans. All I see is oppression and population displacement/replacement, and China doesn't have the excuse of history.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Krezack

[Masterfade]

No, actually I full support Native Title, and you just made one of your more idiotic post just then with that pathetic attempt at analogy.

 

The issues of Kosovo or Taiwan's independence are not related to Native Title. At all.

 

Edit: And indeed, it is ironic that you should bring it up, because I would be surprised to see China enact anything near as progressive as Native Title for its indigenous populations. C.f. Uyghurs, Tibetans. All I see is oppression and population displacement/replacement, and China doesn't have the excuse of history.

 

I'm sure Beijing would become at least as progressive as Canberra once Tibetans count for less than 3% of the total population in their homeland.

[Humodour]

No, actually I full support Native Title, and you just made one of your more idiotic post just then with that pathetic attempt at analogy.

 

The issues of Kosovo or Taiwan's independence are not related to Native Title. At all.

 

Edit: And indeed, it is ironic that you should bring it up, because I would be surprised to see China enact anything near as progressive as Native Title for its indigenous populations. C.f. Uyghurs, Tibetans. All I see is oppression and population displacement/replacement, and China doesn't have the excuse of history.

 

I'm sure Beijing would become at least as progressive as Canberra once Tibetans count for less than 3% of the total population in their homeland.

 

No. China doesn't have the 'excuse' of history. It's happening now, in an era of civilisation that's otherwise defined by human rights advances and individual liberties, and the Chinese government is actively perpetrating it.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Krezack

[Hiro Protagonist]

I'm guessing you think Perth belongs to Australia and not to the Aborigines.

 

You really need to do a bit of history if you're going to use analogies when comparing China and Taiwan to other countries like Australia. Here's a hint, Australia and Norfolk Island. Not a good analogy but there are some similarities.

 

eg. Taiwan and Norfolk Island have their own elected Governments and Norfolk Island is not represented in the Commonwealth Parliament of Australia even though Australia 'owns' Norfolk Island. Also, Norfolk Island doesn't have the same taxes as Australia does. eg. When goods are imported to Australia with a final destination Norfolk Island, those goods don't pay any Duty/Taxes and are transhipped (usually from Sydney) to Norfolk Island where the local Government runs their own Duty/Tax system. Norfolk Island isn't an independant country even though it 'sort of' acts like one.

[Meshugger]

I don't see what's peculiar about Chinese policy on Taiwan. They consider it a part of their state and will not change their opinion. Basically no one wants to or can, for that matter offer something to China to change its mind, which it has no reason to do so in the first place.

 

That's all there is to it.

 

That's not all there is to it. There's the aspect that Taiwan has been independent (de facto) from China for more than 50 years, has a completely different political system, government, and has also evolved because of this a distinct cultural attitude (similar as they are on other matters culturally).

 

Then again, I'm guessing you think Kosovo 'belongs' to the Serbs, right? Pfft.

 

That analogy would only work if the mainland chinese would consider Taiwan as the birthplace of the chinese people and culture. Kosovo reminds me more about the Israel/Palestine-conflict.