Dragon Age discussion

[Gromnir]

I don't know. The bandits at 11 or 12 were a tough bunch. I think I was just a tad higher level the last game, but not by more than a couple of levels. The hardest battles I had the last game were the

Revenants

in the Brecilian Forest, and I went there right out of Lothering. In fact, while I did end up beating them, I didn't even return until I was like level 14 to do so. The bandits, by the time I knew what I was doing, were fairly easy because you do line of sight pulls and whatnot. I mean, that's not even metagaming. Once I realized that I was going to have to run the gauntlet of archers if I fought the melee folks in the open, I started making them come to me. Also, once you get a handle on looking for traps everywhere, you get a leg up also.

 

The point is, the bandits were plenty tough in the first run. I don't care if Vol or some other tactical genius saw them and dispatched them out of hand without even a second's pause, I thought they presented some tough fights. I did fpw on the

lever, as a matter of fact, especially since somehow three of my party ended up on the wrong side.

That happened and even looking at it I knew something was up before hand. In the second run, they basically go down super fast.

 

revenants got much tougher post patch... at least for Gromnir. cone o' cold and force field's were our betest friends in da revenant battles... and those spells were diminished post patch. the one good thing 'bout the revenant battles is that none o' em were a surprise, and only 1 (the redcliffe one) were non-optional.

 

 

most wacky battle with revenant: orzamar palace.

 

we were fighting the revenant same as always, alternating 'tween cone o' cold and force fields... use misdirection hex whenever possible. sadly, we mistimed a slam attack from shale. we found that revenants pretty much ignore taunt and stone roar, so we might as well go full dps shale route with the non-brazilian forest revenants, right? wrong. the orzamar palace room where you encounter the revenant phylactery is small... small enough to send the revenant hurtling beyond the walls o' the room into digital limbo if you use slam when revenant ain't frozen. didn't kill the revenant, 'cause every 10 seconds or so one of our characters would mysteriously suffer a pull attack... suffer damage and get jerked into a wall. no way to target the revenant as it weren't even visible, but the revenant apparent couldn't attack us save with its single range attack.

 

coulda' simple left the entombed revenant, but Gromnir hates unfinished business.

 

reload.

 

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 21, 2009 by Gromnir

[kirottu]

most wacky battle with revenant: orzamar palace.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

That was one easiest revenant battles for me. My mage got aggro and then ran around the table while other party members killed it.

Edited December 21, 2009 by kirottu

[deganawida]

Okay, here's something that I do not understand: How can anyone honestly state that DA:O is darker than BG2? Darker than BG1, yeah, I'll buy that. But BG2? No way.

 

 

In Athkatla alone you deal with a slaver who prostitutes female slaves while forcing the males to fight monsters to the death in a gladiatorial arena, a tanner who makes armor out of human flesh which he flayed from his victims himself, kidnappers who bury people and then collect ransoms on the buried people while letting them stay buried alive, a cult that cuts its own eyes out as worship to a mad monster, a dead god and his dead followers, an abusive gnome husband, and, of course, you're forced to choose to side either with the one of the most blood-thirsty thieves' guilds in Faerun or a cabal of vampires in order to get to the insane asylum where mages are imprisoned and basically lobotomized. That's not even touching on the whole soul-ripped-out bit, having to act like a drow so that you don't get slaughtered, the threat of turning into a murderous, rampaging beast, or going into hell to get your soul back.

 

 

In DA:O, the darkness seems to be of a kiddie variety. Sure, you're told that elves are second class citizens, but the only times that you're really shown that are

in the City Elf opening and in the Alienage

. Otherwise, it seems to be some sort of soft racism that is barely noticeable. The Pearl, as well, is not an example of "dark" or "mature"; where are the consequences for the exploitation of women there? There's nothing but some fast-food nookie for the kiddies. In BG2, the hookers had a horrible story.

 

In terms of which is darker and more mature, I have to say hands-down it's BG2. DA:O is darker and more mature than NWN1, but that ain't saying much.

 

Final note: Will someone please tell Gaider and the other writers to show, don't tell?! Seriously, it's getting annoying at how much blasted exposition is in every Bioware game. Want me to know that elves are violently repressed? Fine! Show it to me in the game through cutscenes, random encounters, etc.. Don't tell me, "Oh, poor elves have it so rough" and then for 95% of the game show me elves mixing with humans with no consequence

Berwick in Redcliffe village, Iona in Human Noble origin, that bounty hunter in The Pearl

. It's a simple rule of modern writing, and Bioware seriously missed the mark on it in this game (Darkspawn are a great example of a threat built up in exposition but not carried through in the story).

[Volourn]

DA is darker than BG2. This is a fact. Seriosuly. Brooodmother. The werewolves. Killing kids can be considered the 'right' thing to do. Magic where you literally have to cut yourself. Rape. The list goes on. BG2 is old news. It's got to the point where I'm sick of it. It's past its prime, and its dead. Vomapred to DA, BG2 is garbage. Plain, and simple.

 

Also, I'd say NWN OC is just as adark as BG2. Sorry, it's true. The quest with the mother and missing children is evidence of this alone.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

DA is darker than BG2. This is a fact.

 

Volo strikes again!

 

R00fles!

[Sannom]

I have trouble to say that DA is "dark" when the setting has one of those terribly evil horde against which everyone has to set their differences apart and rally behind a sacred leader. You can really say the writer responsible for NWN2's basic plot went to work on Dragon Age, the two have the same presets

 

I didn't finish the game, but as far as I'm concerned, the only thing really dark and realistic thing in Dragon Age is their portrayal of the Chantry, a monotheistic religion which doesn't hesitate to wage holy wars on people who doesn't believe in their deity (poor Dales...) and who uses contestable methods to keep their soldiers under check. Too bad most of this is shown through the books and not through the story and characters.

 

The only fantasy setting in which I played that really stroke me as "dark" is the one of the Witcher : racism, misogynistic and hypocrite men of religion, two sides on a war that are as bad and good as the other, a world filled with monsters who prays on the weak and defenseless, and no "evil horde of doom, we're finished!".

[HoonDing]

The only fantasy setting in which I played that really stroke me as "dark" is the one of the Witcher : racism, misogynistic and hypocrite men of religion, two sides on a war that are as bad and good as the other, a world filled with monsters who prays on the weak and defenseless, and no "evil horde of doom, we're finished!".

Gothic 3 & Risen are other examples. Aside from Risen's evil horde of doom, all factions in those games are as bad/good as the others as well.

[Volourn]

TW is not dark. The game is about b00bie cards. TW is just plainly trash. Only thing dark about it is how it is one of the most hyped, disspaointing games that gets wayu too much credit for 'originality' when it is one of the most unoriginal games I have ever seen.

 

 

"I didn't finish the game, but as far as I'm concerned, the only thing really dark and realistic thing in Dragon Age is their portrayal of the Chantry, a monotheistic religion which doesn't hesitate to wage holy wars on people who doesn't believe in their deity (poor Dales...) and who uses contestable methods to keep their soldiers under check."

 

Yeah, ebcause dwarves forcing their own people into a very painful process to change them into golems is all puppies and flowers. Or having one brother kill another while setting up the last and basically trahsing his ftaher's legacies YET make THAT brother a valid choice for putting on the throne to BETTER the lives of the dwarven kingdom.

[entrerix]

TW ... is about b00bie cards.

 

 

 

you and I obviously played VERY different games.

[Gromnir]

"Final note: Will someone please tell Gaider and the other writers to show, don't tell?!"

 

you cannot imagine the number o' times Gromnir has complained of this very aspect o' bio games... 'course we has complained that this is chris a's most irritating fault as well, which don't go over very well in these parts. young writers is particularly likely to has their characters engage in tedious exposition and laughable navel-gazing. bad writers develop characters by having 'em spout platitudes and fortune cookie wisdom... throw in a bit o' melodrama and suffering. 'course making profound observations 'bout the human condition is ssssssoooooo much easier than creating situations that reveal profound truths 'bout the human condition. chris a and gaider has been doing this stuff far too long to be making same mistakes as those numberless goth dweebs taking english 12: intro to creative writing, at the local community college. "I killed my protagonist on page 1. Now THAT is dark. Yeah."

 

*groan*

 

am agreeing with deganawida 100%... but perhaps we is actually agreeing more than 100%. dunno. those folks who thought motb characters were sooper-groovy-keen probably has a different pov than Gromnir.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Aristes]

I have a different point of view. Well... I agree with Dega that DA is not nearly so 'dark' as BG2. *shrug* I actually didn't think that BG2 was the soul of 'gritty/dark' literature.

 

My different point of view is that I don't care. The character don't need to be dark or even 3 dimensional. Hell, folks constantly accuse Gogol of creating soul-less characters, even caricatures, and yet they are most compelling indeed.

 

Of course, I don't equate Bioware with Gogol, especially as Gogol is much 'darker' than any Bioware game. Bioware crafts stories as the backdrop for their games. As long as I enjoy the game, I don't really care about whether the story is dark or not.

 

On the other hand, where Bioware clearly tries to make social commentary, I am more willing to judge them. I find this true of the Elves, although at least there are a couple of areas that depict their suffering, even though these fall a little flat.

 

As far as show but don't tell... I agree in principle, but I just don't see it happening. That's the problem with dialogue in the first place. The designers can't be subtle. If they want the majority of the players to know something, they are all but forced to beat them over the head with the idea.

[Gromnir]

As far as show but don't tell... I agree in principle, but I just don't see it happening. That's the problem with dialogue in the first place. The designers can't be subtle. If they want the majority of the players to know something, they are all but forced to beat them over the head with the idea.

 

every read lit for kids and young adults? is some really good stuff... if you is willing to look hard for it. am recalling that josh is a big fan o' phantom tollbooth, and Gromnir likes gaiman, pullman and l'engle not much behind joyce and faulkner. anybody who suggests that audiences is too dumb to "get it" unless they is slapped upside the noggin' would do well to read kids books such as the phantom tollbooth, or l'engle's works. yeah, kids is not sophisticated 'nuff to get pretentious exposition and introspection... even bad kids books avoid such nonsense. even so, a handful o' kiddy authors has managed to be subtle and profound while successfully engaging a rather crude audience... half of whom still think that girls is icky.

 

audiences is too dumb... too crude... too impatient, intolerant, and uneducated...

 

bah.

 

we don't believe it. if pre-teens can "get" and enjoy subtle and profound, then even vol can grasp such stuff. the notion that writers gotta treat audiences as if they were little kids ignores the fact that there is a considerable amount o' quality literature that has been written for kids... some of which doesn't involve killing a beloved pet/animal friend.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Aristes]

I guess that's a good point. I'm quite fond of A Wrinkle In Time myself. One of my favorite body of works is the Dark is Rising series by Susan Cooper.

 

I don't look down on RPG fans. Hell, I am one, which means I either look down on myself or I consider myself a different caliber of RPG fan, neither of which I believe. Still, whether it's because of the quality of the fans or what the designers believe to be the quality of the fans, ideas are flogged mercilessly in all of these games. Even my favorites have have bludgeoned ideas back and forth. Honest to goodness, maybe I'm too jaded, but it just seems that way to me.

 

I think I'll go and read The Dark is Rising series again. It's been a while.

[Gorgon]

I'm surprised you think DA is much of anything in the writing department. I can't think of a single wow moment in the whole experience.

[Tigranes]

"Wow, they put sex in here too"?

[Gorgon]

If by 'sex' you mean fade to black and a humorous moan... My in game porn standards have changed somewhat since playing the witcher.

[Aristes]

I didn't expect the game to win a pullitzer in the first place. I just wanted the gameplay to be fun. I think that Bioware writes games to be accessible to the largest number of people, and they probably take into account that a large number of the players aren't even native English speakers. Gromnir made a good point about young adult literature, though, so who knows. I also think it's funny that Kaftan, a Swede if I remember it right, had a more complex reading of the Dragon Age dialogue than Bioware intended. Who knows? My main point, which I still believe, is that Bioware isn't inept so much as they are intentionally as explicit as possible so as to broadcast their intentions to the player. Even that fails sometimes.

 

Anyhow, I mean no animosity when I say that I'm done defending the dialogue, especially since I griped about at length some two pages back myself.

 

edit: I leave my mispelling of the Pulitzer prize as even more indication that I'm not the best person to judge Bioware's writing. Plus folks might see it as sweet irony. hehe

Edited December 22, 2009 by Aristes

[deganawida]

I didn't expect the game to win a pullitzer in the first place. I just wanted the gameplay to be fun. I think that Bioware writes games to be accessible to the largest number of people, and they probably take into account that a large number of the players aren't even native English speakers. Gromnir made a good point about young adult literature, though, so who knows. I also think it's funny that Kaftan, a Swede if I remember it right, had a more complex reading of the Dragon Age dialogue than Bioware intended. Who knows? My main point, which I still believe, is that Bioware isn't inept so much as they are intentionally as explicit as possible so as to broadcast their intentions to the player. Even that fails sometimes.

 

Anyhow, I mean no animosity when I say that I'm done defending the dialogue, especially since I griped about at length some two pages back myself.

 

edit: I leave my mispelling of the Pulitzer prize as even more indication that I'm not the best person to judge Bioware's writing. Plus folks might see it as sweet irony. hehe

 

LOL, it was your gripe that set me off on the "show, don't tell" diatribe, so on offense taken :D

[~Di]

I'm surprised you think DA is much of anything in the writing department. I can't think of a single wow moment in the whole experience.

 

I agree, the writing was basic and actually nothing special. There were a few "show don't tell" moments, but not enough of them. One of them occures when

...naive, hopelessly optimistic Alistair saw the gritty, greedy truth about the sister he'd believed would envelop him with instant love and open arms. The writers didn't have to explain that Alistair's vision was born of the foolish naivete of pampered wealth. We saw it firsthand, and saw his naivete shatter and fall to the ground, dead as stone.

Even so, it wasn't a surprise to the player. Everyone with two brain cells saw it coming a mile away. Which proves that Al doesn't really have two sparking brain cells, lol! However, there was the city elf origin, and...

when played as a female, nobody had to come out and talk about how abused the elves were by human nobles. By the end of that origin, I was actually shaken, emotionally drained and a bit nauseated.

THAT was showing, not telling, throughout the entire origin.

 

Anyway, I'd hoped that with female writers in this game that the dialogue would have more of a softened, nuanced form. I saw no difference than the writing in BG2, for example. I'm not actually complaining. I loved the game overall, and many of the cutscenes were quite well scripted. But the actual player dialogue, not so much.

Edited December 23, 2009 by ~Di

[Wrath of Dagon]

Final note: Will someone please tell Gaider and the other writers to show, don't tell?! Seriously, it's getting annoying at how much blasted exposition is in every Bioware game.

What? Instead of 10,000 repetitive battles and 10,000 Codex entries? What kind of crummy RPG design would that be?

 

Btw, how do you find out what happened in the Dwarven royal family? I took Bhalen's side and didn't see any of it.

[Tigranes]

It comes out in the ending, or it should, but the ending slides are quite bugged.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Oh, OK, thanks. I was hoping I could find that out during the Orzammar quest, to help me make the decision.

[Maria Caliban]

I'm surprised you think DA is much of anything in the writing department. I can't think of a single wow moment in the whole experience.

 

Hmm. My favorite sequence was the lead up to the broodmother. I thought that was well written and executed.

[Gorgon]

I still don't understand how Bronca caused that to happen. Seems like she would be preoccupied with her goal rather than arbitrarily turning her clan into demons. But yeah there was a nice creepy feel to it for just a second.

[Aristes]

 

Branka couldn't get past the traps herself. She intentionally turned her clan into darkspawn so that there would be a steady stream of genlocks that would test the traps for her. She kept looking from the sides and, once the area was open, she intended to recover the anvil of DOOOOOOOM.

 

 

That story line was fun and creepy, but overall I was happy to get out of dwarf town. I don't know if it were the lighting or I just didn't like the dwarfs, but I was happy to be done and gone. I also thought that the dwarven area had the largest number of side bosses compared to other areas. The deep roads are a real grind. The way Grom and ~Di describe the end game is pretty much how I felt about Deep Roads.

 

I really enjoyed the fade also. I think I would have ended up with fade fatigue in the same way if I had been there as long as I was in the deep roads. As it was, playing some there in the mage origin and then seeing it again later was a lot of fun for me.