Dragon Age: Tactics

[CoM_Solaufein]

Part 2.

 

Begin.

[Monte Carlo]

Please continue, it was just getting fun on page 35 or something.

 

MC

[Monte Carlo]

OOOps, sorry Lucian please delete although my title was much better

[CoM_Solaufein]

Merged.

[Gromnir]

am getting that people views cunning as somewhere between valuable and essential for a rogue, but am simply not seeing where the payoff is. if attack is a function o' str and dex, then stopping at mid-20s for str and 36 for dex results in a serviceable attack score, but hardly boss-worthy. does essential equipment work into these builds... something that significantly boosts attack? is maybe just a gut impression that cunning is good? is some hidden numbers that make cunning invaluable? lord only knows how armour penetration and criticals work... does crits and armour penetration somehow supersede attack scores?

 

am convinced that cunning is useful... am wondering why it is useful. given what little we can see of the rules, str should kick cunning's arse, but people say that ain't the case... and the "why" is usual absent from the explanations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[HoonDing]

Speaking of cunning, anyone know whether Lethality works for bows too?

 

And I don't understand how Leliana can do 200+ damage with Arrow of Slaying... and without Lethality.

[Tigranes]

I play Hard on mobs and sometimes switch it down to Normal for boss fights depending on what it is. I don't play with optimal parties and find that the re-specced spellcasters just break the game.

 

True, it seems I have, at that.

 

am convinced that cunning is useful... am wondering why it is useful. given what little we can see of the rules, str should kick cunning's arse, but people say that ain't the case... and the "why" is usual absent from the explanations.

 

Bioware thought it best to hide their DA mechanics like some dirty underwear with nasty bacteria on them, but my impression from my rogue playthrough was that armour penetration did make a difference in bosses and other heavily armoured enemies - in those cases the warriors would basically soak up damage but not do a whole lot, while the rogue backstabbing would be significantly more effective. Of course, I haven't used a high str rogue to see if the increase in pure attack/dmg is better. Given that Lethality switches half the benefits of STR to CUN, I don't see a great reason to take str higher than 20, though.

 

edit: Doesn't lethality work for bows? What?

[Gromnir]

Speaking of cunning, anyone know whether Lethality works for bows too?

 

And I don't understand how Leliana can do 200+ damage with Arrow of Slaying... and without Lethality.

 

464

 

we rechecked, and the french girl somehow gots a "most damage dealt" of 464... no lethality and no master archer. she does have the scattershot and arrow of slaying talents.

 

arrow o' slaying simply converts into an auto critical, right... and supposed, 'ccording to the in-game description, tougher opponents may resist the critical.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Enoch]

am getting that people views cunning as somewhere between valuable and essential for a rogue, but am simply not seeing where the payoff is. if attack is a function o' str and dex, then stopping at mid-20s for str and 36 for dex results in a serviceable attack score, but hardly boss-worthy. does essential equipment work into these builds... something that significantly boosts attack? is maybe just a gut impression that cunning is good? is some hidden numbers that make cunning invaluable? lord only knows how armour penetration and criticals work... does crits and armour penetration somehow supersede attack scores?

 

am convinced that cunning is useful... am wondering why it is useful. given what little we can see of the rules, str should kick cunning's arse, but people say that ain't the case... and the "why" is usual absent from the explanations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I suspect that many of the high-damage-dealing rogue builds I've seen over on Bio's social site are dependent on both Lethality and the 2nd tier Assassin ability "Exploit Weakness," which boosts backstab damage based on your Cunning score. If you're getting consistent backstabs (via positioning, stealth, Dirty Fighting, Coup de Grace, etc.), it probably gives a better raw damage boost (raw meaning disregarding armor-based reductions) than does investment in Strength or Dex.

 

Edit: Apparently, one of the rogue-specific abilities that you can get in the Wardens Keep DLC also provides a Cunning-based boost to damage.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Enoch

[Gromnir]

am getting that people views cunning as somewhere between valuable and essential for a rogue, but am simply not seeing where the payoff is. if attack is a function o' str and dex, then stopping at mid-20s for str and 36 for dex results in a serviceable attack score, but hardly boss-worthy. does essential equipment work into these builds... something that significantly boosts attack? is maybe just a gut impression that cunning is good? is some hidden numbers that make cunning invaluable? lord only knows how armour penetration and criticals work... does crits and armour penetration somehow supersede attack scores?

 

am convinced that cunning is useful... am wondering why it is useful. given what little we can see of the rules, str should kick cunning's arse, but people say that ain't the case... and the "why" is usual absent from the explanations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I suspect that many of the high-damage-dealing rogue builds I've seen over on Bio's social site are dependent on both Lethality and the 2nd tier Assassin ability "Exploit Weakness," which boosts backstab damage based on your Cunning score. If you're getting consistent backstabs (via positioning, stealth, Dirty Fighting, Coup de Grace, etc.), it probably gives a better raw damage boost (raw meaning disregarding armor-based reductions) than does investment in Strength or Dex.

 

Edit: Apparently, one of the rogue-specific abilities that you can get in the Wardens Keep DLC also provides a Cunning-based boost to damage.

 

 

we recognize that you can reach big damage potential from cunning, but you get a damage AND attack boost with strength. our experience with boss characters on hard is that with an attack rating o' 100, Gromnir were missing more than hitting when attacking boss characters. the notion o' sacrificing attack for damage seems... odd. no doubt it looks impressive 'gainst fodder, but who cares if you can backstab a hurlock for 200 points o' damage if you cannot manage to hit a revanant? dunno.

 

the dlc power for rogues, the one that uses cunning, is a pretty damn serious health drain. with specific equipment that super-boosts con the rogue dlc ability may be worth considering, but otherwise...

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 2, 2009 by Gromnir

[HoonDing]

I don't get how rogues boost their attack rating either if they're going the lethality route. At least archers have Aim talent active that boosts attack significantly and with Rapid aim bows, don't sacrifice in attack speed.

 

arrow o' slaying simply converts into an auto critical, right... and supposed, 'ccording to the in-game description, tougher opponents may resist the critical.

Critical shot talent also automatically generates a critical hit, but damage output isn't as astronomical. There must be some kind of multiplier behind the scenes active.

 

There are people that have boasted 1000+ damage with arrow of slaying.

[Monte Carlo]

^ My impression is that Cunning, in combat, simply allows you to (a) increase your chance of a Crit and (b) reduce enemy armour reduction.

 

It also allows me to disarm traps without putting any points into the skill, useful for low level XP harvesting.

[Spider]

I'm doing a high cunning build (strength at 26, but 31 with items) and my hit percentage is 81%, which it has been most of the time. I certainly hit more than I miss by a fair margin. Even against bosses. It's possible that falnking plays into that though, maybe backstabbing brings with it a higher to hit chance?

 

I was worried about the attack rating as well for a while, but so far it hasn't been much of an issue. My dex is well over 40 though ( with item bonuses) which could have an impact, I suppose. But since I have lethality, if I was to boost something else than Cunning, it'd be dex.

 

I'm also considering getting dueling, which will also help matters, but I'm undecided if I want that or (more) stealth at the moment.

[deganawida]

Has anyone been able to make a TH warrior work? I've been doing a little reading and some theory-crafting, and it looks as though, contrary to every other warrior build, two-handed requires you to use abilities often, as if you were playing an MMO. Given that the activated attacks launch as soon as you push the button (assuming that one is within range and not stunned/knocked down/out of stamina), and that the activated attacks for two-handed seem to have a higher animation speed, this does seem to be the way to go.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Does backstab work with ranged weapons also?

[Monte Carlo]

^ Gromnir and Alan have played 2H warriors more than I. They've bespoked them.

 

However, having finished the entire game with Sten in my party continuously I have the scars to show how 2H warrior works. He's ironically a bit like the rogue - he relies on lots of modal powers and needs to pump more than two primes stats (CON, STR and WILL to recharge powers).

 

My advice? It's pretty obvious, but boost armour as much as you can, plus your prime stats plus look carefully at your tactics tab so your stamina-sapping powers are used judiciously.

[Gromnir]

Has anyone been able to make a TH warrior work? I've been doing a little reading and some theory-crafting, and it looks as though, contrary to every other warrior build, two-handed requires you to use abilities often, as if you were playing an MMO. Given that the activated attacks launch as soon as you push the button (assuming that one is within range and not stunned/knocked down/out of stamina), and that the activated attacks for two-handed seem to have a higher animation speed, this does seem to be the way to go.

 

2h is different, but you is actual probable less dependent on abilities than the other builds because your base damage is much higher. do +65 base damage and have an attack rating o' over 120. as such, you is actual less dependent on abilities to do large and consistent damage. boost str and willpower... dex and constitution ain't genuine necessary 'cause you is Not a tank.

 

'course, abilities does make a big difference, just as they does with sword and board and dual wield. playing sword and board would be lame without shield bash and assault, no? a 2h warrior with high willpower and some fatigue boosting armour, can easily get 2 or 3 mighty blow attempts in each battle... and we pretty much had indomitable active 24/7. with indomitable you is not gonna be stunned or knocked off your feet, which means that you is dealing damage when other party members is struggling to stay in the fight 'gainst all those mobs with scatter shots and war crys. even dragons can only knock you back a little: they won't knock you out/over.

 

again, don't think of a 2h as a tank and you will be fine. at high levels you got a persistent chance to stun and with the fatigue regen ability you may be able to use abilities often enough... but even without abilities you is probable doing some serious and consistent damage even to critters with extreme heavy armour. 'course, if your plan is to make a 2h warrior your party tank, then things may not work out so well, and Gromnir got little suggestion as to how to build proper.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[deganawida]

Has anyone been able to make a TH warrior work? I've been doing a little reading and some theory-crafting, and it looks as though, contrary to every other warrior build, two-handed requires you to use abilities often, as if you were playing an MMO. Given that the activated attacks launch as soon as you push the button (assuming that one is within range and not stunned/knocked down/out of stamina), and that the activated attacks for two-handed seem to have a higher animation speed, this does seem to be the way to go.

 

2h is different, but you is actual probable less dependent on abilities than the other builds because your base damage is much higher. do +65 base damage and have an attack rating o' over 120. as such, you is actual less dependent on abilities to do large and consistent damage. boost str and willpower... dex and constitution ain't genuine necessary 'cause you is Not a tank.

 

'course, abilities does make a big difference, just as they does with sword and board and dual wield. playing sword and board would be lame without shield bash and assault, no? a 2h warrior with high willpower and some fatigue boosting armour, can easily get 2 or 3 mighty blow attempts in each battle... and we pretty much had indomitable active 24/7. with indomitable you is not gonna be stunned or knocked off your feet, which means that you is dealing damage when other party members is struggling to stay in the fight 'gainst all those mobs with scatter shots and war crys. even dragons can only knock you back a little: they won't knock you out/over.

 

again, don't think of a 2h as a tank and you will be fine. at high levels you got a persistent chance to stun and with the fatigue regen ability you may be able to use abilities often enough... but even without abilities you is probable doing some serious and consistent damage even to critters with extreme heavy armour. 'course, if your plan is to make a 2h warrior your party tank, then things may not work out so well, and Gromnir got little suggestion as to how to build proper.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Nah, wouldn't make him tank, just off-tank. I find Alistair amusing, so I want him to have a purpose in my party.

 

How'd you get your attack rating that high? When I finished on hard, I had I think 113 with my sword'n'board, who had 50 strength and 30 dex.

[Gromnir]

Has anyone been able to make a TH warrior work? I've been doing a little reading and some theory-crafting, and it looks as though, contrary to every other warrior build, two-handed requires you to use abilities often, as if you were playing an MMO. Given that the activated attacks launch as soon as you push the button (assuming that one is within range and not stunned/knocked down/out of stamina), and that the activated attacks for two-handed seem to have a higher animation speed, this does seem to be the way to go.

 

2h is different, but you is actual probable less dependent on abilities than the other builds because your base damage is much higher. do +65 base damage and have an attack rating o' over 120. as such, you is actual less dependent on abilities to do large and consistent damage. boost str and willpower... dex and constitution ain't genuine necessary 'cause you is Not a tank.

 

'course, abilities does make a big difference, just as they does with sword and board and dual wield. playing sword and board would be lame without shield bash and assault, no? a 2h warrior with high willpower and some fatigue boosting armour, can easily get 2 or 3 mighty blow attempts in each battle... and we pretty much had indomitable active 24/7. with indomitable you is not gonna be stunned or knocked off your feet, which means that you is dealing damage when other party members is struggling to stay in the fight 'gainst all those mobs with scatter shots and war crys. even dragons can only knock you back a little: they won't knock you out/over.

 

again, don't think of a 2h as a tank and you will be fine. at high levels you got a persistent chance to stun and with the fatigue regen ability you may be able to use abilities often enough... but even without abilities you is probable doing some serious and consistent damage even to critters with extreme heavy armour. 'course, if your plan is to make a 2h warrior your party tank, then things may not work out so well, and Gromnir got little suggestion as to how to build proper.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Nah, wouldn't make him tank, just off-tank. I find Alistair amusing, so I want him to have a purpose in my party.

 

How'd you get your attack rating that high? When I finished on hard, I had I think 113 with my sword'n'board, who had 50 strength and 30 dex.

 

Gromnir stopped at 25 dex and 22 for constitution. probable wouldn't have gone past 20 for constitution if we could redo. had a natural str o' 60... which boosts attack and damage. with str and attack boosting equipment and specialization bonuses...

 

*shrug*

 

our goal were to create a character that could dish-out the hurt on a consistent basis... a boss killer. boss battles is long and fatigue runs dry, but Gromnir's character were able to do big damage even if fatigue were gone. bosses is resistant to everything, but they still take damage from a big weapon. worked out well enough. fell victim to curse o' mortality more than once, but otherwise it were a pretty effective build.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

Am finding that my Swiss-army knife rogue is working out OK, as long as your not looking for an uber-ninja build. I can do melee, good fire support with a bow, stealth grenadier is fun and I'm rich. I also have 65% of party damage.

[HoonDing]

Bombs & traps seem fun. I'm definitely going to dawdle with that with my Dalish Elf next (if I have the energy to do another playthrough).

 

Does throwing bombs with level 2 stealth break the stealth? If not, it could be ridiculously powerful after littering an entire room with traps.

[Monte Carlo]

^ It depends, it would seem, on your Cunning score. I'm a level 2 with high Cunning and can get away with quite a lot but I'm aiming for the virtual ring-of-invisibility effect that level 4 gives you.

 

I can't throw bombs at the moment at level 2 and Cunning of 26.

 

Cheers

MC

[cronicler]

Heya all.

(Using dex fix) I think I can answer some of your questions.

Str: Increases damage. 1 point per each point of str over 10 ( .425 for daggers, .5 for bows, 0 for crossbows) Allows equipping heavier armor. Some tooltips say it also affects hit chance but Im not sure about that.

Dex: Increases damage ( .425 per point over 10 for daggers, .5 per point over 10 for bows, 1 per point over 10 for crossbows.) Increases hit rating and dodge (defence) rating

Cun: Increases armor penetration (.5 AP per point over 10). With talents, it replaces the str score for basic damage and adds extra damage

 

 

 

There are 3 different defence types in DAO: Dodge chance (Def. Rating), Damage Reduction (Armor) and Resistances.

Your attack rating vs enemy's defense rating (and shield rating if you are using bows from front) determines your chance to hit (and except the main "ratings" the numbers in tooltips are outdated or wrong most of the time). However when you are "flanking" your target, your chance to hit increases. Rogue talent increases the flanking zone while the shield talent decreases the flanking zone. Not sure if the bonus is static or cunning based but it felt a lot on my experiments using rogue so I would hazard a guess supporting a base bonus+cunning (or dex?) modifier.

 

Your Armor Penetration vs enemy's Armor determines how much damage you do with a regular hit. Normally flanking has no effect on this but if you are using a rogue with lethality, every flanking attack is x2 damage. On top of that, the "whole" damage gets treated with 1 dr check so your 5 damage normal attack (20 damage attack vs 15 dr) becomes a 25 damage attack (40 damage vs 15 dr).

 

Magical/Elemental damage completely ignores the above 2 formulas. For every magical attacks you have 4 checks.

-First you check the spell resistance score. First Spell res. check determines if you resist the attack completely. the second one determines how much damage is left.

Eg: Alistar has 82 spell resistance (Knight Commander, Elven Gloves, Shield, Rune, Spellward Amulet). He is hit by a 100 point magical attack. the game first checks if he resists the attack. If he doesn't he gets an 18 point damage that goes to....

-Then you have specific resistances. Mental and elemental resistances work the same way as basic SR.

Eg: Lets say the 100 damage was fire based. Allistar has 60 FR so he checks for resist again. If he fails his check the damage gets adjusted again and he gets 11 fire damage.

 

Meele abilities and some spells, check Physical Resistance. Except for a few bugged ones (overwhelm for example) a score of 70 is enough to resist every spell/ability in the game (80 in nightmare I think). However your own min/max spellcasters can go above this so friendly fire is still possible (Earthquke etc). Depending on the ability magic score or cunning vs PR determines how long you get debuffed (for petrify or stuns) or how much penalty you get (below the belt etc)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly some thoughts on Rogue builds and DW warriors:

 

DW Rogues and DW warriors may seem alike but actually they are complketely different beasts. With rogue builds, you want your guy/gal as a flanker, using talents like combat mobility, lethality coupled with rapid hitting, stunning and sustained skills. 20ish str 40ish Dex and maxed Cun gets you an incredible dps output. Use backstab/critical damage increase gear. Screw other runes, use paralyse runes.

 

DW warriors on the other hand are in your face guys. they don't have the rogue talents but their starting talent makes up for it alone. -%10 stamina coupled with leather armor gives you an incredible stamina pool. Go for Str and Dex primarily, Will and Con secondarily. (1Str, 1Dex and alternating between will and con each level untill you hit 20 will and 20 con) Late game, use dodge gear and 2 main hand swords. With your high dex and dodge gear it is nearly impossible to hit you.

 

Archer rogues are actually among the biggest DPSers in the game. Sure they suck untill lvl 10-12 but after that they go berserk. Go for dex. Maximise her dex. Use crit and crit rate gear. Spam AoS and Scattershot. Abuse rapid aim + aim cheese. Configure her orders so she attacks your tank's target and you can basically forget her while she does her thing. (For Imoen, get her str to 20 for armors. then just go 2dex 1 cun each lvl. Her cunning needs to be high if you want to use her bard talents properly as her her bonuses increase with cun and her ofansive talents are based on cun vs enemy resistance checks)

Edited December 3, 2009 by cronicler

[Gorth]

Bombs & traps seem fun. I'm definitely going to dawdle with that with my Dalish Elf next (if I have the energy to do another playthrough).

Bombs and traps seems like a good rememdy for your party behaving cinematically stupid (i.e. most encounters where the dreaded cut scenes kicks in and places your party in the most indefensible position possible against the players will). If you know it is going to happen, spam an area with traps. Once the game has dragged your entire party into the enemy firing line, just run for it back through your trap line. Once the explosions starts going off, you can shower them with a few bombs too. Mop up survivors at your leasure. I might go back to Haven and try it out in a big fight (optional boss battle) that I skipped there

[Tigranes]

Groar, now that I"m forced to restart I can't make up my mind. I just tried playing a 2H warrior on the Dalish Elf origin. Well the whole thing is clearly built for a rogue (you see about 30 locked chests and 5 unlocked ones, and lots of traps, whereas for the city elf you encounter very little of them), and I was disappointed that the dalish you start with aren't the dalish you meet later on, but oh well. It just occured to me at Ostagar that neither sword / shield nor 2H abilities really seem fun to me, but as MC says, I love how badass my character looks as opposed to the idiots mages are.

 

So I'm going to go for a Mage / Shale / Sten / Leliana again and hope the game doesn't break itself 10 hours in... then after I beat Nightmare, I'll go back and make a stealth-based, bomb/trapper DW rogue to solo the game with. Hopefully by then modders will have worked out how to get rid of the forced companions you get stuck with EVERYWHERE - it's nothing compared to Shandra.