Swiss ban minarets

[Niten_Ryu]

 

I love how some like to blame democracy when they get "poor" choice by majority vote. Tyranny by majority is interesting end result of the democracy. Vote was close this time and will be overturned in near future as immigrant populations are getting bigger and bigger in Europe. Ottoman Empire and Moors tried and failed but time is running out of Europe fast. We're too liberal and kind (me included) and thus those who are not will be the winners.

[Purkake]

Yes, modern countries should be held to the same standards as Islamic ones.

 

You'd think we would try to be better.

[Lare Kikkeli]

Yes, modern countries should be held to the same standards as Islamic ones.

 

You'd think we would try to be better.

 

Now this is the thing, better how? I'm not saying banning minarets is a good thing, on the contrary it's retarded, but I do believe we should hold on to our own rules, laws and traditions and not let people who move from the other side of the world say what we can or can not do. It doesn't work that way, unless they're willing to come halfway through and live by our laws and rules. Freedom of religion, sure, but freedom to do whatever the hell they want because of religion? No.

[Rostere]

Why would anyone ban minarets? That's just stupid.

[Walsingham]

I don't find this really that surprising. Europeans have been making compromises with the muslims for decades, and it would seem to the regular population that all we get in return are demands for more autonomy and terrorist attacks.

 

Everyone makes political demands. That's the point of democracy. I draw a very rigid and fierce distinction between muslims who argue moderately for their conservative values - which they are entitled to and who can say if they're wrong - and fascists who happen to also be muslims. If only more people would draw the same distinction.

[Purkake]

Now this is the thing, better how? I'm not saying banning minarets is a good thing, on the contrary it's retarded, but I do believe we should hold on to our own rules, laws and traditions and not let people who move from the other side of the world say what we can or can not do. It doesn't work that way, unless they're willing to come halfway through and live by our laws and rules. Freedom of religion, sure, but freedom to do whatever the hell they want because of religion? No.

 

Better by having as much freedom as possible and not banning things arbitrarily.

[Hurlshort]

I don't find this really that surprising. Europeans have been making compromises with the muslims for decades, and it would seem to the regular population that all we get in return are demands for more autonomy and terrorist attacks.

 

Everyone makes political demands. That's the point of democracy. I draw a very rigid and fierce distinction between muslims who argue moderately for their conservative values - which they are entitled to and who can say if they're wrong - and fascists who happen to also be muslims. If only more people would draw the same distinction.

 

Millions of Muslims also manage to practice their religion without being terrorists.

[Lare Kikkeli]

I'm not saying banning minarets is smart, on the contrary i think it's retarded. I'm just saying that it's not really surprising the Swiss voted that way since it seems like muslims are just demanding special treatment and all europe gets in return are suicide strikes. There's been a huge rise in nationalism and far right rhetoric in Finland lately, and they racist far right party is gaining more members every day.

[Morgoth]

While I don't see myself why Minarets should be forbidden, Minarets are also not needed to exert your praying.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm against religious discrimination, but as has been said you can't build a church in Muslim countries at all. Muslims should look at themselves first before complaining.

[lord of flies]

I'm against religious discrimination, but as has been said you can't build a church in Muslim countries at all. Muslims should look at themselves first before complaining.

The only reason Wahhabi and other "fundamentalist" beliefs (actually a pretty recent break from "traditional" Muslim thought, such as ijtihad) have spread so far is because the Ottoman Empire was dismantled, destroying the center of the Muslim world and leaving a hole for radicalism to fill.

 

Besides which, you know as well as I do that there are Muslim countries with religious freedom. For example, Indonesia.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Fionavar

[Walsingham]

I'm against religious discrimination, but as has been said you can't build a church in Muslim countries at all. Muslims should look at themselves first before complaining.

 

 

*30 seconds later*

 

http://islam-west.com/2007/11/christian-ch...-countries.html

[Pidesco]

hahaha.

[Wrath of Dagon]

A lot of those are long existing churches, and its true not every Muslim country disallows building of churches. I know Saudi Arabia doesn't allow it.

[Gorgon]

So, we need some kind of statistical compilation of Christian church building in Muslim countries correlated with average church building rates among ex-patriot communities.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Don't forget under Sharia law it is punishable by death to convert from Islam to another religion.

[lord of flies]

Don't forget under Sharia law it is punishable by death to convert from Islam to another religion.

Don't forget that until the West (i.e. you, us) dismantled the Ottoman Empire, nobody gave much of a **** about Sharia law and Wahhabi-style fundamentalist fanatics.

[Walsingham]

Don't forget under Sharia law it is punishable by death to convert from Islam to another religion.

 

True. Which is why i would regard sharia law as incompatible with liberal democracy. BUt being a muslim does not necessarily mean you expect shria law to be applied any more than being a christian means you expect all that guff in Deuteronomy about stoning people to be carried out.

[Rostere]

A lot of those are long existing churches, and its true not every Muslim country disallows building of churches. I know Saudi Arabia doesn't allow it.

 

Saudi Arabia is quite the tyrannical exception among countries in the Middle East. Is that why they get so much military aid from the US? Or was it the other way around?

[Walsingham]

A lot of those are long existing churches, and its true not every Muslim country disallows building of churches. I know Saudi Arabia doesn't allow it.

 

Saudi Arabia is quite the tyrannical exception among countries in the Middle East. Is that why they get so much military aid from the US? Or was it the other way around?

 

I saw a major of Saudi police in London earlier this year describing the constant threat of death he and his colleagues live with from jifascist extremists. His heartfelt remarks moved all those present to express their thanks. You can make comedy of the serious, but you should remember the truth behind it while you do so.

 

Saudi has a lot of problems, and I can't pretend to understand it very well, but I draw the line at accusing the entire nation of being the problem. Stevethaibinh would probably have a more enlightened perspective if he's about.

[Rostere]

I saw a major of Saudi police in London earlier this year describing the constant threat of death he and his colleagues live with from jifascist extremists. His heartfelt remarks moved all those present to express their thanks. You can make comedy of the serious, but you should remember the truth behind it while you do so.

 

Saudi has a lot of problems, and I can't pretend to understand it very well, but I draw the line at accusing the entire nation of being the problem. Stevethaibinh would probably have a more enlightened perspective if he's about.

 

That very same cop is the guy who's supposed to catch you if you do not abide by the rules of religious apartheid. So he's being threatened by religious extremists? That is, as you say, truly ironic. Nevertheless I think religious freedom and democracy are quite good things, and Saudi Arabia has neither of these (rather, brutally enforces the opposite). I think no civilized country should supply the arms which the government points at their oppressed population. That is not exactly making the world a freer and better place to live in.

[lord of flies]

I think no civilized country should supply the arms which the government points at their oppressed population. That is not exactly making the world a freer and better place to live in.

Weird, when I say this everybody cries their eyes out. Ah well, such is life.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Can't say this news makes me a sad panda.

[Walsingham]

I think no civilized country should supply the arms which the government points at their oppressed population. That is not exactly making the world a freer and better place to live in.

Weird, when I say this everybody cries their eyes out. Ah well, such is life.

 

That's because Rosti is generally polite and has a variegated agenda.

 

 

Actually, I would have thought you'd be the first to point out that ALL governments have arms aimed at their own populations.

 

Anyway, Rosti, I see your point about the religious apartheid. Like I say: complex.

[213374U]

I think religious freedom and democracy are quite good things [...]

I think no civilized country should supply the arms which the government points at their oppressed population. That is not exactly making the world a freer and better place to live in.

I'd like to know if you think this is always true, though, and why. Hate and oppression are older than weapons deals. Interahamwe mobs were armed simply with machetes, and they were scary effective.

 

A freer world may be a better place to live in, but it's little good if you are, in fact, dead. For example, with Saddam Hussein, oppression prevented Iraq from spiralling down into civil war. Mexico could use some old fashioned military repression around some places. Colombia, where druglords and pseudo-marxist guerrillas "coexist" with democracy, is another good example. In Pakistan, chances are they are starting to regret they pressured uncle Pervez into resigning. Primo de Rivera's military dictatorship brought good things to Spain, if only for a short time. Examples abound, really, where more freedom isn't such a good idea.

 

It's a complex issue, so I'm always looking for more opinions. The relation between fear, repression and peace and order isn't fixed and depends on who, where and when you're looking at.

Edited December 1, 2009 by 213374U