Aristes Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 God, you guys can be insufferable. I mean, for a while this thread was entertaining, but someone makes a pro Finland post and folks fall all over themselves touting it as the bomb. If someone posts something as provincially chauvenistic about the US, the howls and screams are heard for miles. I actually have a lot of respect for Finland. I have respect for most countries, and Finland does have a noble history. It has a brave history. Still, it's a tiny nation (at least population-wise) with a homogenous population and built in trading partners. By their own hard work, the Finns have become prosperous, but they didn't do it on their own. Hell, no nation does, especially today. Finland has a population of, what? about the size of New York. ...And New York's economy probably dwarfs Finland's. Per capita income in Manhattan alone is probably much higher as well. Does that mean that New Yorkers should pile on Finland? Most New Yorkers probably don't care about Finland. From what I can tell, a lot of them don't even want to recognize that they're part of a union. California probably has more ethnic diversity that Finland. ...And that's recognizing that Finland does bring different cultures to the table. I live in a city with one of the highest longevity rates in the world. In fact, allegedly one of the top three. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/ Does that mean I can tout my healthcare system as inherently better? Yeah, Wrath did go a little overboard in defending the United States. He still wasn't wrong on every point. As someone who has been to and lived in foreign countries, I can tell you that most of them have some good and bad. The US isn't any different. Still, because Wrath had the audacity to step up to defend his country, you guys have been piling on indiscriminantly for pages of this thread. Is it possible to have anything resembling a real discussion, or is it really only about talking down the United States? My point isn't to insult Finland. Far from it. I admire Finland. However, that doesn't mean I should be ashamed of my own country. The United States has a noble history too. Like everywhere else, that noble history has an ugly and ignoble twin, but that doesn't mean I should not take pride in the accomplishments of my country. Probably the only specific issue I take personally is that we Americans, as a general rule, are stingy. We're not. We are a giving people and give quite a bit of money to private charities. One of the highest rates of personal donations in the world. I could only find this article in a quick search, but it does underscore that the private citizens of the United States are a lot more generous than the 'stereotypes' presented here. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/Commerce.We...reCanadians.pdf Once again, my point isn't to insult Canadians. However, I contend that we are a giving nation and that most folks don't fear socialized healthcare because they turn a cold shoulder to sick folks. The single biggest reason, I am personally convinced, for the widespread stance against UHC is that Americans don't trust the government. Maybe you think that's a crappy reason, but it does help explain why a people who are so personally giving, not only domestically but also to global causes, especially in times of crisis, would not band behind UHC. At any rate, the amount of vitriol spouted at the US in this thread dwarfs whatever offense you see in Wrath's praise of it.
Calax Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 ... You know, I don't really care if Barak gets the nobel prize that much, I can understand the reason behind it (he did get most foreign nations to like us again and give them back hope about US foregin relations), but I just don't really care. I do laugh at somebody like Glenn Beck who says that the people who should get the Nobel prize are the "tea partiers" and the "9/12" movement or whatever. Both of which are spear headed by Fox, and have some... unique thinking individuals (for example a woman who wears a holster, and instead of a gun, has a cross in it). *shrugs* all I know is that I hope in 10-15 years I can pick up a prize for physics Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
Humodour Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) God, you guys can be insufferable. I mean, for a while this thread was entertaining, but someone makes a pro Finland post and folks fall all over themselves touting it as the bomb. If someone posts something as provincially chauvenistic about the US, the howls and screams are heard for miles. I actually have a lot of respect for Finland. I have respect for most countries, and Finland does have a noble history. It has a brave history. Still, it's a tiny nation (at least population-wise) with a homogenous population and built in trading partners. By their own hard work, the Finns have become prosperous, but they didn't do it on their own. Hell, no nation does, especially today. Finland has a population of, what? about the size of New York. ...And New York's economy probably dwarfs Finland's. Per capita income in Manhattan alone is probably much higher as well. Does that mean that New Yorkers should pile on Finland? Most New Yorkers probably don't care about Finland. From what I can tell, a lot of them don't even want to recognize that they're part of a union. California probably has more ethnic diversity that Finland. ...And that's recognizing that Finland does bring different cultures to the table. I live in a city with one of the highest longevity rates in the world. In fact, allegedly one of the top three. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/ Does that mean I can tout my healthcare system as inherently better? Yeah, Wrath did go a little overboard in defending the United States. He still wasn't wrong on every point. As someone who has been to and lived in foreign countries, I can tell you that most of them have some good and bad. The US isn't any different. Still, because Wrath had the audacity to step up to defend his country, you guys have been piling on indiscriminantly for pages of this thread. Is it possible to have anything resembling a real discussion, or is it really only about talking down the United States? My point isn't to insult Finland. Far from it. I admire Finland. However, that doesn't mean I should be ashamed of my own country. The United States has a noble history too. Like everywhere else, that noble history has an ugly and ignoble twin, but that doesn't mean I should not take pride in the accomplishments of my country. Probably the only specific issue I take personally is that we Americans, as a general rule, are stingy. We're not. We are a giving people and give quite a bit of money to private charities. One of the highest rates of personal donations in the world. I could only find this article in a quick search, but it does underscore that the private citizens of the United States are a lot more generous than the 'stereotypes' presented here. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/Commerce.We...reCanadians.pdf Once again, my point isn't to insult Canadians. However, I contend that we are a giving nation and that most folks don't fear socialized healthcare because they turn a cold shoulder to sick folks. The single biggest reason, I am personally convinced, for the widespread stance against UHC is that Americans don't trust the government. Maybe you think that's a crappy reason, but it does help explain why a people who are so personally giving, not only domestically but also to global causes, especially in times of crisis, would not band behind UHC. At any rate, the amount of vitriol spouted at the US in this thread dwarfs whatever offense you see in Wrath's praise of it. Nice attempt at putting a positive spin on WoD's posts, but you're off the mark. We all started taking issue with him when he went around stating America is superior to Finland. He wasn't merely 'defending' America's dubious practices (though it's true he did plenty of that too). Anyhoo, America is a developed Western liberal democracy. It's not a bad country and if you think that's we are implying it is a bad country, no way.... we're implying it's not the best country. Edited October 15, 2009 by Krezack
213374U Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 picYou're starting to repeat yourself. Bush did more to help Laissez faire capitialism then any other president before his lack of regulations.Look up Glass-Steagall. Do you think that if you don't tax the rich, nothing bad will happen?Tsk, tsk. That's a loaded question... He still wasn't wrong on every point.Um, in case you have missed the last few pages, he has failed to convincingly support any of his claims, other than "the US is the biggest economy", which is an obvious fact, rather than an argument. This isn't about criticizing the US, really. It's about looking at things as they are. I admire the US, and I'd much rather have you guys be on top than China or Russia, Soviet or otherwise. Heh, I have considered living there, even. But you have to admit, you are in the hands of a plutocracy that uses and abuses the values your country was founded on and a very healthy feeling of patriotism to further their business interests worldwide, while feeding the general population, at home and abroad, some bull**** about freedom and democracy. Didn't the Founding Fathers regard with suspicion merely the idea of a standing army? What do you think they'd have to say about this "War is Peace" policy your country has systematically practiced since, hell, the war with Spain? Your prosperity has been paid for not in oil but in blood. You want to be imperialists? Sure, no problem. But at least be honest about it. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
Lare Kikkeli Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 HELLO MY NAME IS BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA I AM DIPLOMAT FROM KENYA. I HAVE RECENTLY ACQUIRED OVER $1MILLION (US) AND I NEED A SAFE BANK ACCOUN IN US TO STORE MONEY IN
Walsingham Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 HELLO MY NAME IS BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA I AM DIPLOMAT FROM KENYA. I HAVE RECENTLY ACQUIRED OVER $1MILLION (US) AND I NEED A SAFE BANK ACCOUN IN US TO STORE MONEY IN Comedy fail. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.
Killian Kalthorne Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Speaking of Finland, the more I hear about this place the more I would like to live there. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/15/finland...ghts/index.html "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
kirottu Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) nvm Edited October 15, 2009 by kirottu This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Lare Kikkeli Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Speaking of Finland, the more I hear about this place the more I would like to live there. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/15/finland...ghts/index.html It
kirottu Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Speaking of Finland, the more I hear about this place the more I would like to live there. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/15/finland...ghts/index.html It This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Lare Kikkeli Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Speaking of Finland, the more I hear about this place the more I would like to live there. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/15/finland...ghts/index.html It
Walsingham Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Are we not getting a bit off topic? "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.
Amentep Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) Are we not getting a bit off topic? To be fair, they'll probably show Barak Obama accepting the Nobel Peace prize on Finnish TV, as paid for by the Media Tax. So its not as off-topic as some of the other stuff in this thread! Edited October 15, 2009 by Amentep I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
kirottu Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Are we not getting a bit off topic? Rule 25: Relation to the orginal topic decreases with every single post. This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 IBut it doesn't just end with property values, you can go on and on making connections to what programs your taxes fund and how they can affect you personally. Do you get a cost of living increase in your salary? How do taxes help with the cost of living increases exactly? "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Purkake Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 You have TV(media) tax in Finland? I don't really watch any local TV here, but I have always found the TV tax to be a funny concept.
Lare Kikkeli Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 You have TV(media) tax in Finland? I don't really watch any local TV here, but I have always found the TV tax to be a funny concept. Yes. To be fair for 230
Purkake Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 It's kind of nice if there are no commercials, I guess.
Lare Kikkeli Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 Yeah and they also air a lot of stuff that wouldn't probably be commercially viable but has artistic merit, like old or independent movies, documentaries, TV shows and movies from other than english speaking countries etc. It's one aspect of our moderate socialism I really like.
Gfted1 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 You have TV(media) tax in Finland? I don't really watch any local TV here, but I have always found the TV tax to be a funny concept. Yes. To be fair for 230 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Lare Kikkeli Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 You have TV(media) tax in Finland? I don't really watch any local TV here, but I have always found the TV tax to be a funny concept. Yes. To be fair for 230
Purkake Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 I get like ~50 channels along with my 12Mb internet connection for ~30
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 I get 400 billion zillion channels on my cable, of course I have to pay $80 a month. I can see Finland is very advanced. Here's the Economic Freedom Index for whoever's interested http://www.heritage.org/Index/Default.aspx "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Purkake Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) What does economic freedom have to do with anything? Are you just looking for charts where US is above Finland? Try the population and area ones next Hey look, here's the Freedom of Press chart and US is pretty low on it. How about them apples? Edited October 15, 2009 by Purkake
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