First failed state?

[Gfted1]

The frustrating part of Hade's logic is that it would cripple our economy.

No it would not, rich people who use slaves erm illegal works would just have to live on a little less money.

 

Hahahahahaha, good one, but seriously, the cost would be passed to the consumer.

[Kelverin]

The frustrating part of Hade's logic is that it would cripple our economy.

No it would not, rich people who use slaves erm illegal works would just have to live on a little less money.

 

Hahahahahaha, good one, but seriously, the cost would be passed to the consumer.

That's alright something has to be done. This issue is not going to fix itself. If it's too expensive the consumer will go elsewhere, then adjustments will need to be made and the market continues on and survives and thrives.

[GreasyDogMeat]

The frustrating part of Hade's logic is that it would cripple our economy. It is a classic case of cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

 

Also the complaints about illegal immigrants not learning language are a slippery slope.

 

1. Many early immigrants to the US, ones that went through Ellis Island, did not learn English. It is not an official language. My great grandmother spoke Italian and lived in the US for 40 years. It takes generations to change that. If you want to change it, then education has to be better.

 

2. Immigration has changed dramatically since the 1800's. We turn people away. Your relatives came over on a boat and were processed for citizenship. That is not an option today. The only people we accept easily today are well educated folks who have a good shot at getting a job. While that is logical, it is vastly different than what happened on Ellis Island.

 

3. California used to be part of Mexico. I'm proud of California History and do not feel the need to trod upon other cultures that make it such a great state.

Standards have changed, but I don't see how that is a free pass for illegal aliens. A big problem is a large majority of illegal aliens have no intent of bettering themselves and one day meeting the requirements for citizenship. From what I've read, around 10 billion from tax payers goes into illegal aliens every year (in california alone). That is... ridiculous.

 

Also, I have to make this crystal clear: NO ONE IS TRODING ON ANY CULTURE. That's nothing more than a straw man. Like saying anyone against Obama plans are against them because he's black.

Edited October 6, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat

[Gorgon]

That is kind of like saying don't blame a rapist for breaking into a girls bedroom when her parents weren't home. The opportunity presented itself. Also, since when did illegal immigrants become a race to be bigoted against? That's also like saying don't speak ill of murderers... its bigotry.

 

 

Yeah well we aren't really talking about illegal immigrants, we are talking about Mexicans. Opportunity means they are trying to build a better lives for themselves and their families, I'm sure you are familiar with the concept.

 

Surely you don't believe that illegal automatically equates with something morally wrong.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Gorgon

[Killian Kalthorne]

I don't care what country where the illegals are coming from. We just need to stop them from entering our country and using our resources.

[Aram]

derkerderbs

[GreasyDogMeat]

Yeah well we aren't really talking about illegal immigrants, we are talking about Mexicans. Opportunity means they are trying to build a better lives for themselves and their families, I'm sure you are familiar with the concept.

 

Surely you don't believe that illegal automatically equates with something morally wrong.

No, we ARE talking about illegal immigrants. Some of them may be trying to build better lives but it is at the expense of actual citizens who have to pay their medical bills, lose jobs because of them, even get killed by them (probably an exageration, but have read 13 people die a day from a drunk illegal driver). Simpathy for their plight does not mean we should run our country into the ground for them.

Edited October 6, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat

[Gorgon]

California, who are you kidding ?

[GreasyDogMeat]

California, who are you kidding ?

The problem is far bigger than California alone. While I wouldn't put California's current crisis to illegal's alone, they certainly didn't help. I've heard of a case in Florida where an illegal was given a 1.5 million dollar surgery and people were more upset he was deported after the surgery.

[Enoch]

The historical analogies are pretty weak. Prior to the 1920s, there was no such thing as illegal immigration in America (with the exception of some public health statutes and exclusion treaties with Japan and China). If you could afford and survive the trip, you were welcome to stay. Although there were political movements against immigrants from time to time (the focus of much of them was anti-Catholic, based on a belief that a citizenry following the dictates of a supposedly infallible Pope would destroy American democracy), the stated policy was that America had plenty of land that needed developing and industry that needed cheap labor, and that the enormous cost and risk involved in crossing an ocean to just get a chance at American economic opportunities ensured that we'd be getting 'the cream of the crop' of the huddled masses.

 

The economic argument nowadays is far less clear, of course. There are pros and cons, and 98% of the studies, surveys, and projections out there were constructed with the point they wanted to prove already in mind, and thus are pretty much worthless.

 

 

Also, @Greasy: unsubstantiated "I've read that" and "I've heard that" anecdotes might work for talk radio hosts, but on teh inertnets, your readers are going demand a link to a reputable source before they put any faith in lines like that.

[GreasyDogMeat]

You are right Enoch... I'm just being lazy.

I stumbled on this just a moment ago and I wasn't even looking for illegal alien info. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33192344/ns/us...news/?gt1=43001

10.5 billion costs per year for California. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationn.../caillegals.htm

# of American citizins killed each day by drunk illegals (actually got the info from another site which said 13 a day, but forgot which site.) http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

 

(Sarcasm, humor, and disgust all wrapped up in one) Oh and if I haven't convinced you that illegal aliens are evil filthy scum... I give you... http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50744

Edited October 6, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat

[alanschu]

That's alright something has to be done. This issue is not going to fix itself. If it's too expensive the consumer will go elsewhere, then adjustments will need to be made and the market continues on and survives and thrives.

 

 

The market continues on with or without the presence of illegal aliens.

 

This is why it very much seems like the illegal aliens are used as an excuse. Their presence has existed pretty much forever, but at this moment things are bad, so lets blame them, not things like government mismanagement and poor laws that restrict businesses and cause them to move to other states.

Edited October 6, 2009 by alanschu

[GreasyDogMeat]

That's alright something has to be done. This issue is not going to fix itself. If it's too expensive the consumer will go elsewhere, then adjustments will need to be made and the market continues on and survives and thrives.

 

 

The market continues on with or without the presence of illegal aliens.

 

This is why it very much seems like the illegal aliens are used as an excuse. Their presence has existed pretty much forever, but at this moment things are bad, so lets blame them, not things like government mismanagement and poor laws that restrict businesses and cause them to move to other states.

I agree, especially about business restrictions, but I still think illegal aliens are a major problem. Just one of many problems with California right now.

[vault_overseer]

No, we ARE talking about illegal immigrants. Some of them may be trying to build better lives but it is at the expense of actual citizens who have to pay their medical bills, lose jobs because of them, even get killed by them (probably an exageration, but have read 13 people die a day from a drunk illegal driver). Simpathy for their plight does not mean we should run our country into the ground for them.

What about the ones who work hard, pay taxes, get nothing in return and dream about becoming legal?

[Darth InSidious]

Also kinda funny how your entire country is build around mass immigration and how you, as one of the only countries in the world, has managed to make that something extremely positive. Something I would be very proud of if I was american. It's kinda sad to see that the 10th+ generation of immigrants won't allow others to do what their ancestors did.

Pretty sure my ancestors didn't sneak across the border illegally, refuse to learn the language and become burdens to the country. That is an insult to any family, hispanic or otherwise that came here legally to make something of themseves

Speak an Iroquoi language, do you? Did your ancestors? Did they ask permission to settle?

 

Thought not.

 

but I don't see how that is a free pass for illegal aliens.

What it does is make your immigration policies a case of absolutely astonishing hypocrisy.

 

Also, I have to make this crystal clear: NO ONE IS TRODING ON ANY CULTURE.

Well, no. But then that doesn't make any sense at all. You were saying about not learning the language...?

[GreasyDogMeat]

"Speak an Iroquoi language, do you? Did your ancestors? Did they ask permission to settle? Thought not.

Ah, the old 'everyone stole the land from the Native Americans so you should let everyone ignore the laws of the land now no matter how much it hurts the country' argument. Who cares, we all just stole the land! Real solid argument.

 

"What it does is make your immigration policies a case of absolutely astonishing hypocrisy."

Riiiight, so changing the immigration policies as time changes and the population # change = hypocrisy. Yeah, wanting a higher standard as time goes on is a terrible thing.

 

"Well, no. But then that doesn't make any sense at all. You were saying about not learning the language...?"

One of the requirements to becoming a US citizien is "The ability to read, write and speak ordinary English unless they are physically unable to do so due to a disability such as being blind or deaf, or suffer from a developmental disability or mental impairment". Again, how is that trodding on another's culture? Part of what makes a country work and run is the ability to communicate. I don't remember saying they need to give up their heathen traditions, culture or language.

Edited October 7, 2009 by GreasyDogMeat

[Hurlshort]

"Speak an Iroquoi language, do you? Did your ancestors? Did they ask permission to settle? Thought not.

Ah, the old 'everyone stole the land from the Native Americans so you should let everyone ignore the laws of the land now no matter how much it hurts the country' argument. Who cares, we all just stole the land! Real solid argument.

 

First off, I already posted links to the Center for Immigration Studies (www.cis.org), which is non-partisan and gathers a ton of numbers and arguments about illegal immigration. No one seems to have actually looked at it, which makes me realize how silly it is to argue about this stuff since most folks have already made up their minds and don't seemed concerned with silly things like facts.

 

Secondly, that above is a real solid argument, because it illustrates how often the laws are changed to benefit the more powerful parties. In 1969 a group of American Indians cited an old treaty that gave them rights over abandoned military outposts. They stayed their for almost two years protesting in order to get the Indian termination policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy) rescinded.

 

So the "law of the land" is an ever changing thing, and it requires people to go against it in order to enact change.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Secondly, that above is a real solid argument, because it illustrates how often the laws are changed to benefit the more powerful parties. In 1969 a group of American Indians cited an old treaty that gave them rights over abandoned military outposts. They stayed their for almost two years protesting in order to get the Indian termination policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_termination_policy) rescinded.

 

So the "law of the land" is an ever changing thing, and it requires people to go against it in order to enact change.

No, its not a solid argument. Like I said, should we just ignore the current laws because they used to be different? As for changing laws, you do that by, as your example, protests, voting etc. not by breaking the law until it becomes meaningless. In this case, breaking the law is breaking the bank and lives of Americans.

[Guard Dog]

While I will agree that illegal immigration is a terrible strain on any economy, making the case that it is the bullet that killed California is just not correct. Don't get me wrong, it is a big part of the problem but it's like complaining about a flat tire when the engine is shot. CAs problems are plummeting State revenue. The only way to fix that is to entice business and people to come back, buy houses, spend money, live their lives there. And the only way to do that is cut taxes. California needs to reform its regressive and punitive tax structure, cease harrasing business right out of the state with unreasonable regulation, and for Gods sweet sake, stop spending money the state does not have. Yes that means state employees won't get free breast implants. And yes that means fewer programs for the poor and illegals. If they don't then poor and illegals is all California will have and as they are finding out now, those folks don't pay taxes.

 

But they won't. The state will find some way to raise taxes again and drive out more and more people until it's economy collapses and the Federal government will be compelled to "bail it out". Of course that means taking money from other States who did not manage their economies like drunken sailors on a 72 hour liberty. And the people in those states will be pissed when California takes their money and continues to do business as usual until that runs out.

 

I believe it was Reagan who quipped "Government is like a baby, an insatiable appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."

[Humodour]

Are we arguing that illegal immigration is the problem in California?

 

Immigrants are always the first ones to be blamed during recessions. It's a sad fact of life.

[alanschu]

I have a quick question.

 

What is California's situation regarding corporate taxes as well as progressive taxes (i.e. the rich get taxed more than the poor)?

Edited October 7, 2009 by alanschu

[Killian Kalthorne]

Are we arguing that illegal immigration is the problem in California?

 

Immigrants are always the first ones to be blamed during recessions. It's a sad fact of life.

I don't blame LEGAL immigrants.

[Darth InSidious]

"Speak an Iroquoi language, do you? Did your ancestors? Did they ask permission to settle? Thought not.

Ah, the old 'everyone stole the land from the Native Americans so you should let everyone ignore the laws of the land now no matter how much it hurts the country' argument. Who cares, we all just stole the land! Real solid argument.

Erm, no. More the old "You have no right to complain about people not blending into the local culture when your own ancestors refused to do anything of the sort" argument.

 

"What it does is make your immigration policies a case of absolutely astonishing hypocrisy."

Riiiight, so changing the immigration policies as time changes and the population # change = hypocrisy. Yeah, wanting a higher standard as time goes on is a terrible thing.

See above.

 

"Well, no. But then that doesn't make any sense at all. You were saying about not learning the language...?"

One of the requirements to becoming a US citizien is "The ability to read, write and speak ordinary English unless they are physically unable to do so due to a disability such as being blind or deaf, or suffer from a developmental disability or mental impairment". Again, how is that trodding on another's culture? Part of what makes a country work and run is the ability to communicate. I don't remember saying they need to give up their heathen traditions, culture or language.

I didn't say it was "trodding" at all; but I think it's pretty pathetic to complain about illegal immigrants not learning the language when you, it seems, are totally incapable of forming the present participle of the verb "to tread". Pots, kettles, colour-schemes.

[Walsingham]

The only way to fix that is to entice business and people to come back, buy houses, spend money, live their lives there. And the only way to do that is cut taxes. California needs to reform its regressive and punitive tax structure, cease harrasing business right out of the state with unreasonable regulation, and for Gods sweet sake, stop spending money the state does not have.

 

You contradict yourself in your next sentence. Governments don't just spend money on gold-plated hookers. Somalia has pretty low taxes but people don't emigrate there. Canada has taxes but every bastard I know would love to live there.

 

I also take issue with your idea that you can't spend money you don't have. The whole history of economic growth shows that spending money you don't have is a great way to grow and improve. Or don't you have business loans where you are?

 

Having said that I do accept that Cali seems to have spent money it not only doesn't have but isn't reasonably going to have. I'm just aghast at the idea that cutting education, policing, public parks, public spaces etc is going to make the place more attractive.

 

My feeling is that the place is banjo'd.

[Humodour]

Having said that I do accept that Cali seems to have spent money it not only doesn't have but isn't reasonably going to have. I'm just aghast at the idea that cutting education, policing, public parks, public spaces etc is going to make the place more attractive.

 

Part of it seems to me the fact that California does not have sovereignty, because if you take a look at places like Australia or Canada, which are of semi-comparable economic size, population, and culture, you see a vastly different picture. Interestingly, both Canada and Australia also have higher taxes in every regard, as well as bigger social welfare systems, AFAIK. Canada and Australia also have some of the biggest migrant intakes in the world.

 

TBH, I think America could do with splitting into 2 or 3 separate countries - a federal, central government just seems too big and inefficient to optimally organise & support so many states/people. Wow, I almost sound like a small government advocate.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Krezack