Bos_hybrid Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Is Torment a worse game because you can't choose your gender or customise your appearance? No. Some people would say yes. Especially female gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Is Torment a worse game because you can't choose your gender or customise your appearance? No. Some people would say yes. Especially female gamers. The story is about a man. It shouldn't matter what the player's gender is; You're playing out him, his life, his past, not yourself. I've another RPG called 'Seal of Evil', where you play the town Elder's daughter ~that's the role that the game assigns, I don't see anything wrong with that. Funny review I found for it... Strange, and borders on insulting, but for some (lame) reason, the reviewer likens it to Fallout 2. (he's quite mistaken btw, and I can't figure out in the least why he didn't liken it to Baldur's Gate instead). http://www.cnet.com.au/seal-of-evil-pc-review-240054342.htm *He's right about the voice work though... Edited September 5, 2009 by Gizmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bos_hybrid Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Is Torment a worse game because you can't choose your gender or customise your appearance? No. Some people would say yes. Especially female gamers. The story is about a man. It shouldn't matter what the player's gender is; You're playing out him, his life, his past, not yourself. Many people like to play themselves in RPGs, and games like Torment do not allow that. Which is why it won't be held in as high regard by them. If your/my opinions differ to theirs, to bad. That's the way they play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Is Torment a worse game because you can't choose your gender or customise your appearance? No. Some people would say yes. Especially female gamers. The story is about a man. It shouldn't matter what the player's gender is; You're playing out him, his life, his past, not yourself. Many people like to play themselves in RPGs, and games like Torment do not allow that. Which is why it won't be held in as high regard by them. If your/my opinions differ to theirs, to bad. That's the way they play. Its true, that's for sure... (and its their loss for being close minded and gender prejudiced). Roleplaying in general began as a teaching tool to impart empathy. The whole idea of an RPG is to play someone other than one's self. (As for Planescape... I've never played a better RPG) Edited September 5, 2009 by Gizmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Can you imagine how ugly the female TNO would look, scars and all? I'm not really seeing the appeal here. Also, comparing NOLF and FO3 is sacrilege or the highest order. Edited September 5, 2009 by Purkake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Can you imagine how ugly the female TNO would look, scars and all? I'm not really seeing the appeal here.Shouldn't matter I'd think. Also, comparing NOLF and FO3 is sacrilege or the highest order. I thought it was NOLF2 Edited September 5, 2009 by Gizmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Also, comparing NOLF and FO3 is sacrilege or the highest order. I thought it was NOLF2 It's a series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Lynch Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) I'm not sure why it's hard for some to understand the OP's opinion and reasoning behind not wanting to play AP. It's a legitimate reason for not playing for the OP. It doesn't have to mesh with anyone else's list of what a game must have to be playable. While I am of the mind that a "roleplaying" game can be accessible to anyone if they subscribe to the idea that they are an actor playing a role, a lot of people want to be able to imagine themselves in the gameworld. I like gameplay that draws you in, but I find I'm leaning more often to the former concept than the latter. If playing the opposite sex is a barrier to imagining yourself in the place of the main character and that's an important aspect of an RPG for you then a lot of games are going to leave you cold. Remember, this issue is not only one of sex. Racial, social, national divides can keep people from playing a game, too. Personally, I feel that games should be inclusive. However, I'm also of the mind that the gaming industry is full of businesses that are there to make money. They will put into a game what they think will make it sell and leave out what they think will add more cost but little benefit. They may be wrong, but it's their choice. Yep, I get the OP's anger (I didn't always "get it", though). And I'm glad they are going to talk with their money. That's all a consumer can do, and letting the devs know that's how they feel is a good step, too. Edited September 5, 2009 by Kevin Lynch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm not sure why it's hard for some to understand the OP's opinion and reasoning behind not wanting to play AP. It's a legitimate reason for not playing for the OP. It doesn't have to mesh with anyone else's list of what a game must have to be playable. While I am of the mind that a "roleplaying" game can be accessible to anyone if they subscribe to the idea that they are an actor playing a role, a lot of people want to be able to imagine themselves in the gameworld. I like gameplay that draws you in, but I find I'm leaning more often to the former concept than the latter. If playing the opposite sex is a barrier to imagining yourself in the place of the main character and that's an important aspect of an RPG for you then a lot of games are going to leave you cold. Remember, this issue is not only one of sex. Racial, social, national divides can keep people from playing a game, too. Personally, I feel that games should be inclusive. However, I'm also of the mind that the gaming industry is full of businesses that are there to make money. They will put into a game what they think will make it sell and leave out what they think will add more cost but little benefit. They may be wrong, but it's their choice. Yep, I get the OP's anger (I didn't always "get it", though). And I'm glad they are going to talk with their money. That's all a consumer can do, and letting the devs know that's how they feel is a good step, too. If I don't buy AP because the cover art is too blue, that would also be a legitimate reason for me, that doesn't make it any less silly. If you can't roleplay as anyone but yourself, sex, race and hair color included, I'd say you lack imagination. It's sad that it is enough to stop people from enjoying the game, but at the same time you can't expect the developers to spend more resources and possibly dilute the overall quality to please everyone. Voting with your wallet is always appreciated, but sometimes people have the craziest expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPGmasterBoo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm not sure why it's hard for some to understand the OP's opinion and reasoning behind not wanting to play AP. It's a legitimate reason for not playing for the OP. It doesn't have to mesh with anyone else's list of what a game must have to be playable. While I am of the mind that a "roleplaying" game can be accessible to anyone if they subscribe to the idea that they are an actor playing a role, a lot of people want to be able to imagine themselves in the gameworld. I like gameplay that draws you in, but I find I'm leaning more often to the former concept than the latter. If playing the opposite sex is a barrier to imagining yourself in the place of the main character and that's an important aspect of an RPG for you then a lot of games are going to leave you cold. Remember, this issue is not only one of sex. Racial, social, national divides can keep people from playing a game, too. Personally, I feel that games should be inclusive. However, I'm also of the mind that the gaming industry is full of businesses that are there to make money. They will put into a game what they think will make it sell and leave out what they think will add more cost but little benefit. They may be wrong, but it's their choice. Yep, I get the OP's anger (I didn't always "get it", though). And I'm glad they are going to talk with their money. That's all a consumer can do, and letting the devs know that's how they feel is a good step, too. Well I have a major problem with playing a CIA agent, but I'll wait until the credits roll to judge whether my experience has been negatively impacted by the profession of the main character.I wont go into a flame over it, and judge the game or the devs on the basis of one bad (in my eyes) design choice. Imperium Thought for the Day: Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Lynch Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 If I don't buy AP because the cover art is too blue, that would also be a legitimate reason for me, that doesn't make it any less silly. It's all a matter of where you are standing. There were those that criticized Planescape:Torment's cover art as being something that turned off people from buying the game when browsing in store. Personally, I figured people shouldn't judge it by its cover, but marketing folks will tell you that it matters. You might think it silly but there are those that know different. If you can't roleplay as anyone but yourself, sex, race and hair color included, I'd say you lack imagination. It's sad that it is enough to stop people from enjoying the game, but at the same time you can't expect the developers to spend more resources and possibly dilute the overall quality to please everyone. Imagination may have something to do with it but acting as a character and believing you are a character are two different things. Some people want an experience where they are more connected with a character on a personal level. There are those that read books, watch tv shows, or view movies/plays that enjoy them more because they can see a part of themselves or something from their own experience in the characters, settings, or story. Some want something entirely different that doesn't link with anything remotely like their world. It's perfectly legitimate to want one thing or the other, sometimes both at different times. Wanting to play as your own sex in a game is just part of that. I can play games with any sort of character; I don't have a problem getting into the idea of playing a role that the devs set for me. That doesn't stop me from preferring to have as many options to customize a character as possible in a game. Would everyone be feeling the same way if they only offered a single character with no customization with AP? Perhaps it'd go over for some (it wouldn't have been a show-stopper for me), but I bet there'd be a lot more uproar over it. And people always want games that fit their mold of the "perfect experience". And everyone has a different idea of what that "perfect experience" should be. I've made the point in the past that I think BioWare's Jade Empire would have been a better game if it had been molded as an Adventure genre game (i.e. no combat, just puzzles to go with the story, like a Syberia). Someone else could come along and say "well, they didn't want to make that game so it's silly to suggest it; devs don't have to do what you say" but that would not be an appropriate response. One could say "I prefer a more action-oriented combat system and I think the plot of JE sucked" and that would be fine. It's the dismissal of an opinion as "silly" because it doesn't fit with what one thinks a game should offer that is unreasonable. Well I have a major problem with playing a CIA agent, but I'll wait until the credits roll to judge whether my experience has been negatively impacted by the profession of the main character.I wont go into a flame over it, and judge the game or the devs on the basis of one bad (in my eyes) design choice. Some things have a greater impact than others. I've not bought games by a particular publisher because of poor customer relations by their staff, no matter the quality of the games (this was pre-release of a game; I feel bad for the developers, but I speak with my money, too). Others would probably think I overreacted in making such a blanket decision. Oh well. My decision doesn't require anyone else to agree with it. I told the publisher my decision (via email) and moved on. And even though the game was one that I had been tracking and it was on my must-buy list for years, I stuck with my decision. My point is only that the decisions people make whether to buy any product, or not, can be as simple or complex as you can imagine. I'm unsure why it is so unacceptable to some that a person would latch onto one aspect and decide not to support a game or company because of it. It's their choice, they are allowed to state it (I'd actually encourage people to do so more often). I think the OP's PS of "Nobody has to reply to my post, I am not coming back here." was an unfortunate way to end the post. It might have been better to be able to discuss it with the devs (if they hadn't already) to get their side of the decision. Hey, they are a business after all. Perhaps what they feel they are missing from those that won't buy the game is more than covered by what they gain in development time by leaving out a female choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I'm not sure why it's hard for some to understand the OP's opinion and reasoning behind not wanting to play AP. It's a legitimate reason for not playing for the OP. Well, considering that he mentions Deus Ex as one of his favourite games, a game that had WAY less customising than AP is apparently going to have, sort of undermines the legitimacy of his argument and drifts it to the clueless/trolling department. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Rorie Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well I have a major problem with playing a CIA agent, but I'll wait until the credits roll to judge whether my experience has been negatively impacted by the profession of the main character.I wont go into a flame over it, and judge the game or the devs on the basis of one bad (in my eyes) design choice. Except...you're not a CIA agent. Matthew Rorie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelverin Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well I have a major problem with playing a CIA agent, but I'll wait until the credits roll to judge whether my experience has been negatively impacted by the profession of the main character.I wont go into a flame over it, and judge the game or the devs on the basis of one bad (in my eyes) design choice. Except...you're not a CIA agent. Lets keep facts out of this shall we. J1 Visa Southern California Cleaning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPGmasterBoo Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well I have a major problem with playing a CIA agent, but I'll wait until the credits roll to judge whether my experience has been negatively impacted by the profession of the main character.I wont go into a flame over it, and judge the game or the devs on the basis of one bad (in my eyes) design choice. Except...you're not a CIA agent. This went right over my head, everywhere I read M.T. is a rookie CIA agent? Imperium Thought for the Day: Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 The issue isn't whether or not having the option to play as both male/female is a valid complaint. The issue is the absurdity of coming onto a message board with a hate filled message stating that you will be ignoring Obsidian games from now on, while later in the same email commenting how Deus Ex is one of your favourite games. Something isn't right here. Clearly the user is more than able to enjoy a game for what it is without the need for female characters, as Deus Ex is considered one of the OP's favourite games. In fact, the OP says that he (she?) feels that Alpha Protocol could even be better than Deus Ex, but has decided to completely skip the game simply because of the lack of a female PC option. The user is basically saying "This game looks like it will be a lot of fun, perhaps even more fun than one of my favourite games, but I have decided to skip on the game because it doesn't have a female character option." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bos_hybrid Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 The issue isn't whether or not having the option to play as both male/female is a valid complaint. The issue is the absurdity of coming onto a message board with a hate filled message stating that you will be ignoring Obsidian games from now on, while later in the same email commenting how Deus Ex is one of your favourite games. The only thing I can think of, like others, is she/he meant IW. Still doesn't explain the 'ignore all Obsidian games' comment/overreaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well, if s/he is talking IW, then credibility is suspect as how can that be considered one of anyone's favourite games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bos_hybrid Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well, if s/he is talking IW, then credibility is suspect as how can that be considered one of anyone's favourite games IW isn't that bad, it just happens to be the sequel of Dues Ex. Nothing sort of perfection was going to be accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Nothing sort of perfection was going to be accepted. I would have accepted a game similar to Deus Ex 1 instead of perfection. But they chose to dumb it down and remove key elements that made DX1 great (many to appease console fans), resulting in DX2 being at best a mediocre game you play for, what, 15 hours, then throw away - ideal for the console fans it was re-aimed at, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cl_Flushentityhero Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I thought the core mechanic of making decisions was intact in DX2; but the gameplay, story, and characters were all less interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cl_Flushentityhero Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well I have a major problem with playing a CIA agent, but I'll wait until the credits roll to judge whether my experience has been negatively impacted by the profession of the main character.I wont go into a flame over it, and judge the game or the devs on the basis of one bad (in my eyes) design choice. Except...you're not a CIA agent. Alpha Protocol is actually a shadowy flight into the dangerous world of a man who does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) I thought the core mechanic of making decisions was intact in DX2; but the gameplay, story, and characters were all less interesting. Not sure what you mean with core mechanic? As in decisions are mostly made practically instead of, say, in discussions? Mmh, the main problems that I see with IW were a) xbox limitations led to some uninspired level design with a lot of laughably convenient air ducts b) their attempts to think outside the box (unified ammo) failed miserably. And probably c) they showed a lot of really REALLY cool stuff until fairly late into the production cycle, none of which made it to the final product. Oh yeah, and d) removal of pretty much all the RPG (gameplay) elements. Edited September 5, 2009 by Nepenthe You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cl_Flushentityhero Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 As in you could make decisions that altered the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webslinger Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) I've never heard anybody complain about Lara Croft being a woman in Tomb Raider. I'm not a fan of playing female characters, especially if I'm roleplaying. Is Tomb Raider a role playing game? No? How about about Alpha Protocol? As a heterosexual male, I have to say if I had to be forced to roleplay a game as a female, I probably wouldn't like it either. Just sayin' Flame away. I was a bit sympathetic with the OP until I read the Deus Ex comment, which left me scratching my head. Will I buy this game and play it? Yes. Will my fianc Edited September 6, 2009 by Webslinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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