Bioware/Bethesda appreciation thread

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Ah, I see.

 

EDIT: Also they copy-pasted the gameplay and plot devices (and dumbed them down), but I really don't where you see the similarity between a rogue AI with a God complex taking over a space station and an underwater city (built by a man who got sick of the surface world's governments/organizations) going to hell because of radical new genetic mutation technology that gives everyone super powers. That and the plot twist not being the same at all.

Edited August 25, 2009 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[Pidesco]

Games and classic literature are still two different fields. Torment may have the best writing in a game, but comparing it to the best novel is still (somewhat) unfair.

 

It did what almost no other game could, and should be praised for that, in that category.

 

You don't compare novels to movies, do you?

 

 

Not in absolute terms, of course, but in relative terms definitely. Casablanca is a brilliantly written film and To a God Unknown is a brilliantly written book, however, what makes the movie brilliantly written and the book brilliantly written aren't the exact same qualities.

 

When I say Torment's writing isn't a good as a classic novel(say, Crime and Punishment), I'm talking about how the game and novel harness their respective mediums in order to tell their narratives and expound their themes. Game writing and design still has a very long way to go before games can be fairly and positively compared to other mediums.

[Purkake]

Ah, I see.

 

EDIT: Also they copy-pasted the gameplay and plot devices (and dumbed them down), but I really don't where you see the similarity between a rogue AI with a God complex taking over a space station and an underwater city (built by a man who got sick of the surface world's governments/organizations) going to hell because of radical new genetic mutation technology that gives everyone super powers. That and the plot twist not being the same at all.

 

I should have probably said plot devices. To me Bioshock was a game of unlimited potential that failed to live up to any of it. The idea was good, the setting and atmosphere were also good, but everything else just fell flat.

 

Not in absolute terms, of course, but in relative terms definitely. Casablanca is a brilliantly written film and To a God Unknown is a brilliantly written book, however, what makes the movie brilliantly written and the book brilliantly written aren't the exact same qualities.

 

When I say Torment's writing isn't a good as a classic novel(say, Crime and Punishment), I'm talking about how the game and novel harness their respective mediums in order to tell their narratives and expound their themes. Game writing and design still has a very long way to go before games can be fairly and positively compared to other mediums.

 

Sure, but books have had thousands of years to reach the greatness that they have. Games have only had 2 decades at best and you can't really just use a novel-style writing in a game, to make it good you have to take into account the medium's strengths and weaknesses just as with film.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Purkake

[Pidesco]

Sure, but books have had thousands of years to reach the greatness that they have. Games have only had 2 decades at best and you can't really just use a novel-style writing in a game, to make it good you have to take into account the medium's strengths and weaknesses just as with film.

 

And I'm not contesting that. That's actually my point and why I think that right now saying any game already released has outstanding writing is, not only shortsighted, but dismissive of the medium's potential.

[Purkake]

Sure, but books have had thousands of years to reach the greatness that they have. Games have only had 2 decades at best and you can't really just use a novel-style writing in a game, to make it good you have to take into account the medium's strengths and weaknesses just as with film.

 

And I'm not contesting that. That's actually my point and why I think that right now saying any game already released has outstanding writing is, not only shortsighted, but dismissive of the medium's potential.

 

You could say the best writing so far. Who says there won't be better books than the ones we have now?

[Darth InSidious]

... Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?

[Volourn]

"Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware."

 

Never argued that other comapnies were as 'competent' as BIO. However, none of those companies have 'better' writing than BIO's. They can arguably be equal; but better? Not. Espicially Obsidian. SOZ is proof of this. NWN2 OC is proof of this. KOTOR2 is proof of this.

 

 

 

"Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?"

 

Why are you still trolling Volourn? At least the others are actually discussing the issue. You are just crying.

[Aristes]

I thought he was making fun of Pidesco.

 

Anyhow, there are still plenty of academes who refuse to consider The Lord of the Rings set as literature. I'm not exactly accusing Pidesco of being a snob, but there clearly is a bit of snobbery going around. After all, Beowulf fails in quite a few areas in comparison to other literary titles, and yet it's a classic. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest strikes me as rather lackluster, but it has had real durability. I think downplaying the achievements of previous games because of the potential you see in the medium is on the short rather than far sighted end of things.

[Darth InSidious]

"Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?"

 

Why are you still trolling Volourn? At least the others are actually discussing the issue. You are just crying.

I didn't troll you, and if anyone's crying, it's you with your reactionary denunciation of my "trolling". I was simply pointing out that since you attempt to infallibly define everything and brook no contradiction, there's no point. As the rest of your post shows.

[Bos_hybrid]

Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware.

 

No not really, the only one there that can match Bio is Obsidian. And then there best effort MOTB, had Mitsoda as the lead who as we all know, is no longer at Obsidian.

 

They can arguably be equal; but better? Not. Espicially Obsidian. SOZ is proof of this.

 

SOZ was never a game that was going to deliver a strong narrative with interesting characters.

 

NWN2 OC is proof of this.

 

NWN2 OC is far better then NWN. NWN wasn't even going to have an OC through part of it's development.

 

KOTOR2 is proof of this.

 

KoTOR 2 is proof of a rushed game. Nothing more, but even if it wasn't I still would of prefered the original.

[Volourn]

"I didn't troll you, and if anyone's crying, it's you with your reactionary denunciation of my "trolling". I was simply pointing out that since you attempt to infallibly define everything and brook no contradiction, there's no point. As the rest of your post shows. "

 

Sure you did. I'm far from the only one who 'attempts to infallably define everything and brook no contradiction'. Justa dmit, myou posted what you did in an attempt to get a reaction. You got one so stop crying over it.

 

 

 

"SOZ was never a game that was going to deliver a strong narrative with interesting characters. "

 

Poor excuse. It had writing and characters so its quality can be judged. Period.

 

 

"NWN2 OC is far better then NWN."

 

No, no it isn't. It's about equal.

 

 

"NWN wasn't even going to have an OC through part of it's development."

 

Totally irrelevant.

 

 

"KoTOR 2 is proof of a rushed game. Nothing more, but even if it wasn't I still would of prefered the original."

 

KOTOR wasn't 'rushed'. This is a myth. Obsidian knew how much time they basiclaly had from the moment they signed the contract.Nobody's fault but their own they seemingly (according to their fanboys) couldn't make due. That said, KOTOR2 isn't that bad either. In fact, it's about equal with KOTOR (which is overrated). *shrug*

[Killian Kalthorne]

Bioware does formula writing. If you look at the basic plot lines of Bioware's games they tend to be very similar in design with minor variations here and there. With that criticism aside, they done quite well with that formula and have perfected it. Obsidian's writing tends to be more risky, and while they do adhere to some aspect of the base formulaic plot lines that have been long established since the 16th century, they try to bring in more complexity in their twists and turns in their games. There is some risk in that because sometimes it just doesn't pay off as well and the quality is more varied. However, the fact that Obsidian is more risky in their writing make me like them better than Bioware, but Bioware's quality is more than often very stable and fun, if not a tad predictable.

 

For Bethesda... Bethesda is way behind both Bioware and Obsidian when it comes to their writing, but they have made substantial improvements from Morrowind to Oblivion and Oblivion to Fallout 3. I would say, in development side, they are back when Bioware and Black Isle released the first Baldur's Gate and Fallout. Bethesda's writers still need summer school.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Killian Kalthorne

[Volourn]

"with minor variations"

 

No.

 

 

 

"Obsidian's writing tends to be more risky, and while they do adhere to some aspect of the base formulaic plot lines that have been long established since the 16th century, they try to bring in more complexity in their twists and turns in their games"

 

What's so risky about Obsidian's writing?

[RPGmasterBoo]

Games and classic literature are still two different fields. Torment may have the best writing in a game, but comparing it to the best novel is still (somewhat) unfair.

 

It did what almost no other game could, and should be praised for that, in that category.

 

You don't compare novels to movies, do you?

 

I personally lump movies, comics (european, not US superhero comics) and games in the same category and that is: primarily entertainment with the rare possibility of being art.

[Volourn]

Art is art. None of things you listed are art.

[mkreku]

What's so risky about Obsidian's writing?

If you need to ask, you'll never get it anyhow. Stick to McDonald's/Britney/Bioware, boy.

[Volourn]

"If you need to ask, you'll never get it anyhow. Stick to McDonald's/Britney/Bioware, boy. "

 

That's the best you got? Calling someone 'boy'? I'll one up you. IF you think Obsidian's writing is 'risky' (btw, 'risky' does not equal good as I find Obsidian's writing good) then you judt don't get what 'risky' is, baby.

[Bos_hybrid]

"SOZ was never a game that was going to deliver a strong narrative with interesting characters. "

 

Poor excuse. It had writing and characters so its quality can be judged. Period.

 

Not an excuse, it's a fact, doesn't change the lesser quality, but does explain why.

 

 

"NWN2 OC is far better then NWN."

 

No, no it isn't. It's about equal.

 

Agree to disagree.

 

"NWN wasn't even going to have an OC through part of it's development."

 

Totally irrelevant.

 

No it explains why it is Bio weakest SP/OC effort.

 

"KoTOR 2 is proof of a rushed game. Nothing more, but even if it wasn't I still would of prefered the original."

 

KOTOR wasn't 'rushed'. This is a myth. Obsidian knew how much time they basiclaly had from the moment they signed the contract.Nobody's fault but their own they seemingly (according to their fanboys) couldn't make due. That said, KOTOR2 isn't that bad either. In fact, it's about equal with KOTOR (which is overrated). *shrug*

 

It was rushed, by both publisher and dev. Lucasart wanted to quickly capitalize on the originals comercial success, Bio wasn't interested in doing a sequel, so it was passed to Obsidian. Obsidian, while the devs were experienced, was still a new company/team and as such not able to complete the game in time. Both are at fault.

 

For Bethesda... Bethesda is way behind both Bioware and Obsidian when it comes to their writing, but they have made substantial improvements from Morrowind to Oblivion and Oblivion to Fallout 3. I would say, in development side, they are back when Bioware and Black Isle released the first Baldur's Gate and Fallout. Bethesda's writers still need summer school.

 

I would say Oblivion was a step back from Morrowind, and FO3 was three steps forward.

[Fighter]

There are some ridiculously high standards in here. Classic literature like Dostoevsky wasn't just "good", it was brilliant and then some. You people must be unhappy if you anything other than is the quality of "porn" to you.

 

Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware.

 

No. I would only put Obsidian over Bioware in the writing department. Unfortunately the lack of polishing negates that. System Shock 2 had mediocre story.

 

KOTOR wasn't 'rushed'. This is a myth. Obsidian knew how much time they basiclaly had from the moment they signed the contract.Nobody's fault but their own they seemingly (according to their fanboys) couldn't make due. That said, KOTOR2 isn't that bad either. In fact, it's about equal with KOTOR (which is overrated). *shrug*

 

There is no denying that KOTOR 2 was rushed. Whoever might be at fault it's blatantly obvious the game wasn't done.

[Morgoth]

While Bioware games have a lot of writing, it's not necessarily the best stuff. System Shock 2, Psychonauts, Fahrenheit, MotB...heck even Bioshock (as mentioned by Pidesco) had a lot more impactful writing and more interesting characters.

 

In terms of story-driven games, Bioware already lost it's lead a long time ago. Something like Heavy Rain will crush Bio games easily in terms of story, subject and maturity. Compare the latest Heavy Rain trailer with the one from the latest Bioware trailer "I'm Grunt. I like killing stuff". Just sayin'.

[Purkake]

When you bring up Fahrenheit as an example of anything, please specify the first half, because the second half is so horrible, it's not even funny.

 

As for the art argument, either everything creative is art or everything YOU think is art is art. There's nothing stopping something from having artistic qualities while still being entertaining.

[Meshugger]

Trying to discuss with Volourn the merits of Bioware's writing compared to, well, any company, is like trying to have serious discussion about abortion with diehard pro-lifer. Nothing will come out of it.

 

Anyhoo, Bioware is like God, they give and they take. Sometimes they give us a blessing of life, like KotOR, and sometimes they take the very same life away from us to create a new life, like replacing KotOR III with ToR.

 

Bethesda have a good financial policy and merits for potential growth.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Trying to discuss with Volourn the merits of Bioware's writing compared to, well, any company, is like trying to have serious discussion about abortion with diehard pro-lifer. Nothing will come out of it.

 

Mind you, that's a man that considers NWN series "the best ever".

[Morgoth]

When you bring up Fahrenheit as an example of anything, please specify the first half, because the second half is so horrible, it's not even funny.

Yeah, the last third was complete rubbish. Guess Dave Cage didn't know what to throw out of the game to make it more cohesive. That AI stuff, intertwined with the temperature drop was completely artificial and rushed. He should have sticked with the Maya dude and make the conclusion there.

 

Still, overall nice effort. I liked the characters with the exception of Lukas, who was a bit too whiney.

[Meshugger]

Mind you, that's a man that considers NWN series "the best ever".

 

uh-huh.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Meshugger