Manny Ramirez suspended for 50 games

[Volourn]

"the player is still exactly the same capability wise as they started"

 

Nope. Without the pain killers they likely wouldn't be able to perform at the level they do even when injured so it most definitely enhances their performance.

[Gromnir]

"the player is still exactly the same capability wise as they started"

 

Nope. Without the pain killers they likely wouldn't be able to perform at the level they do even when injured so it most definitely enhances their performance.

 

similar to vols point, steroids and the steroid/hgh combos is a great way to speed up the healing process. given the length o' the baseball season, virtual everybody plays hurt, so the steroid stuff has a use other than hitting ball farther.

 

is our understanding that for years the most popular baseball drug were amphetamines... need something to function on last couple o' days o' a road trip. friend o' ours who played pro ball in the early 90s mentioned that montreal games were some o' the worst for visiting greenie usage. have never personal been to montreal, but am understanding that their pr0n industry is quite active, and young players would rarely get a full night rest before a game in montreal.

 

Gromnir were a bench warmer in college... played football. probably coulda' been a starter in the pac ten, but we were more concerned 'bout grades as we knew we had no shot at the pros. that being said, if somebody offered us a drug that woulda' made us a NFL caliber player but would shorten our life expectancy by 15 years, we woulda' taken in a heartbeat. now, as we is on the doorstep o' 40, am not so sure how we would decide... but at age 19-20... no-brainer-- take the 'roids. lose some hair, get back acne and die of cancer in 30 years? sure, why not?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Enoch]

@ LC: Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

 

@ Kelv: Thanks for the link. Will Carroll is pretty much the best media authority out there on sports injuries and PEDs.

[LadyCrimson]

Its baseball. Who cares? Its not like its a real sport.

Not enough blood for you, eh?

[Killian Kalthorne]

Its baseball. Who cares? Its not like its a real sport.

Not enough blood for you, eh?

 

Nah, just too many chemicals involved.

[LadyCrimson]

So you think other sports don't have a lot of chemicals? Somehow I kinda doubt that.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Real sports don't use chemicals.

[Gromnir]

Real sports don't use chemicals.

 

need chemicals? probably not... but shouldn't the player's health be paramount? use ibuprofen to bring down swelling. use anti-biotic to stave off infections. use steroids to help recovery from serious injury. sure, makes an effort to distinguish healing medications/chemicals from performance enhancers is understandable, but as has been pointed out already, sometimes the line 'tween the two is... fuzzy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

Well, Basketball and Hockey players just wouldn't benefit from steroid use the same way as in Football and Baseball. It's not to say that there aren't some players out there who are likely on stuff, but I doubt t is widespread.

 

I mean, geez, every superstar baseball player in the last ten years seems to be on something.

[LadyCrimson]

Well, Basketball and Hockey players just wouldn't benefit from steroid use the same way as in Football and Baseball. It's not to say that there aren't some players out there who are likely on stuff, but I doubt t is widespread.

Hahahahah.

If you want to believe that, that's cool. Obviously, I don't.

 

I mean, geez, every superstar baseball player in the last ten years seems to be on something.

My opinion is that baseball gets more publicity, as well as the game itself being more focused on individual "stars" then football/hockey.

I like this article about why baseball has the steroid spotlight vs. football. While it's mostly a "here's some facts + here's my opinion" piece, imo, it probably has some validity.

 

http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/weblogs/...ls-steroid-era/

Apparently there was a survey done by the University Of North Carolina Center for the Study of Retired Athletes. They surveyed 2,552 retired players from 1940 to 1990. The ones who answered yes that they did use steroids from this group were 9.1%. Of this group the ones that were offensive lineman, 16.3% said they used and of defensive lineman 14.8% said they used.

 

The percentages get better, or worse I suppose, when the players who played in the 1980

Edited May 8, 2009 by LadyCrimson

[Enoch]

The difference in the way we look at NFL and MLB PED use also stems from how the leagues have dealt with the issue.

 

The NFL instituted a testing regime decades ago, and every year you hear about a few guys getting busted by it. This creates the impression (whether true or not-- it's pretty well accepted that, if you're willing to spend serious money, you can get stuff that the tests won't catch) that the league is on top of the issue and at least trying to keep it under control.

 

The MLB on the other hand, staunchly refused to impose a serious testing regime until the BALCO scandal broke a few years ago. This creates the impression that the league was tacitly approving of PED use among players for a long time. That's where the outrage comes from.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Enoch

[LadyCrimson]

That kinda goes along with getting more publicity.

 

Baseball hasn't had as much time for PED stuff to go "underground"...not to mention the possibility, like you said, that at least some of the NFL thing is more image than reality.

 

I also object to the idea that PED's won't help players outside of baseball as much. Anything that means you can train harder/more often with better results and build more muscle mass etc. etc. helps any athlete. But most aren't going to really notice or pick apart a linebackers ability to block/defend with more stamina/effect/agility (or whatever), while a batter suddenly hitting 50HR when last year they only had 15HR is going to be noticed by every fan in the stands.

[Gromnir]

is not as if mlb has ignored steroids. even pre-balco there were more than a couple attempts by the commissioner to implement a genuine drug testing policy... but the player's union rejected. baseball player's union is on a whole different level than the other major pro sports.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

Well, Basketball and Hockey players just wouldn't benefit from steroid use the same way as in Football and Baseball. It's not to say that there aren't some players out there who are likely on stuff, but I doubt t is widespread.

Hahahahah.

If you want to believe that, that's cool. Obviously, I don't.

 

 

It just comes down to the way the game is played. Steroids aren't going to make a jump shot better or increase stick handling abilities. On the other hand, they can directly affect your power when swinging a bat or trying to push past an offensive lineman. You can see it in the body types.

 

Now there could be an argument that steroids made to help players recover from injury are a problem in the NBA and NHL, but that isn't what all these baseball players are getting raked over the coals for.

 

If Gretzky took steroids, he should ask for his money back.

[Enoch]

is not as if mlb has ignored steroids. even pre-balco there were more than a couple attempts by the commissioner to implement a genuine drug testing policy... but the player's union rejected. baseball player's union is on a whole different level than the other major pro sports.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Fair point.

 

And LC's point about how improved performance via PEDs is more noticeable in baseball is a good one as well.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I don't see what the big deal with using performance enhancing drugs. It should be allowed and those drugs that are illegal should be legal and then you will have better control of the situation. All sports use drugs, some people are just better at getting away with it. Make it legal so it can be under better control.

[Gfted1]

[LadyCrimson]

It just comes down to the way the game is played. Steroids aren't going to make a jump shot better or increase stick handling abilities. On the other hand, they can directly affect your power when swinging a bat or trying to push past an offensive lineman. You can see it in the body types.

 

Now there could be an argument that steroids made to help players recover from injury are a problem in the NBA and NHL, but that isn't what all these baseball players are getting raked over the coals for.

 

If Gretzky took steroids, he should ask for his money back.

Steroids don't help a batter actually be able to hit the ball, either (so the text I bolded in your quote) Sounds like false logic to me.

 

Now, with more power behind a hit when they do get a hit, I can see/believe that more power=more propelling force, which would help a ball to fly that extra several feet out of a ballpark - but that's if the ball is hit in such a way that a HR would even be likely, in the first place. There's a lot more to getting hits/HR's than just how much power is behind a swing. Some of the best HR hitters in history were around before steroids, and some were even really skinny.

 

I don't see how one can conclude that a possible enhanced ability to jump higher, run faster, turn/swivel/dodge faster, etc. absolutely cannot affect jump shots or the ability to handle a hokey stick vs. (claiming it can do so with) a baseball bat. If you can jump higher/swivel faster you're better on the court and could maybe dodge/skate your way around better than if you weren't on steroids.

Edited May 8, 2009 by LadyCrimson

[CoM_Solaufein]

True on that. Steroids don't do anything about hitting the ball, that is hand- eye coordination skill. You have to be able to hit the ball before you can knock it out of the ballpark. You really don't need to be that strong to hit the ball, its just a matter of chance of the ball hitting the right spot on the ball at the right moment of the upward swing of the bat.

[LadyCrimson]

That's partly what makes so many fans so mad/annoyed - not only that a popular player cheated rules but that most of the time, they probably didn't need to. A terrible batter is likely to still be a crappy or minor-league quality batter even on steroids...but a good batter would still be a good batter, likely w/lots of RBI's and a high OBP and so on - but the HR is the "money shot" and apparently 15-20 HR's isn't enough to get the 50-200 million contracts.

[Kelverin]

Steroids don't do anything about hitting the ball, that is hand- eye coordination skill.

You sure about that? Evidence? Doctors reports? Scientific evidence? Or just because you think it's true.

[Gfted1]

I thought they did actually help with hitting, allowing you to "turn on the ball" faster.

[LadyCrimson]

I don't know, but I'd suspect there's probably no real proof either way. There's too many variables.

 

It might help with speed of turning, just like it might help with jumping higher...better muscles, better speed/reflexes maybe.

 

But if you can't read a pitch well or have lousy hand/eye co-ord, nothing will help you except random luck.

[Volourn]

"That's partly what makes so many fans so mad/annoyed"

 

No doubt pure jealousy is the high motivator for what makes 'many fan' "mad" and "annoyed". No doubt most of the people pointing fingers would be the first in line taking steroids if they thought it help them get millions of dollars no questions asked. Besdies, imo, there's nothing inherently immoral about steroids. It's just another make believe evil that people can use to crucify others who aren't actually hurting anyone.

[Maria Caliban]

Hmm, interesting. Im not so concered with their health, they are taking the drugs of their own free will and Im sure they are aware of the dangers. Im more concerned with "the game", whichever game that may be. IMO, performance enhancing drugs ruin the credibility of the sport and the athletes.

 

The use of a performing enhancing substance in a competitive environment puts a great deal of pressure on those who do not want to use that substance and creates an uneven playing field.

 

You can also see this in colleges and certain businesses with neuro-enhancers.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Maria Caliban