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Americans can't do anything right


Gromnir

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http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08...cked/index.html

 

apparently the American crew didn't get the memo: crews is 'posed to simply give up and wait to be ransomed. as hard as it is to believe, crew resistance in such situations is virtual unprecedented, and a successful modern re-taking of a merchant vessel IS unprecedented. now there is an American warship on the scene? damned Americans is always being different.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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AMERICA, FxCK YEAH!

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

 

- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

 

"I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta

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Waiting for Steven Seagal to show up... :sorcerer:

 

Except they aren't really "terrorists", just plain ordinary criminals that have made a living out of ransoming and extortion. In any other part of the world, they would probably have been part of the local organised crime syndicate, less visible, just as criminal.

 

Question is, how to stop it?

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Waiting for Steven Seagal to show up... :sorcerer:

 

Except they aren't really "terrorists", just plain ordinary criminals that have made a living out of ransoming and extortion. In any other part of the world, they would probably have been part of the local organised crime syndicate, less visible, just as criminal.

 

Question is, how to stop it?

 

Good question. Do you start having armed military or police force on merchant ships?

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

 

- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

 

"I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta

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I hear Blackwater/Xe is looking for new work... :sorcerer:

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Sounds expensive to have military on ships. Just arm the crew. Rations of rum also.

 

EDIT: I'm not entirely joking. In unsafe areas, having trained crews with access to firearms is a possibility. Oh, I can hear the cries already, but merchant marines are not drooling imbecils. If the arms are unlocked only in hostile waters, then the chances of mistake or misuse will likely be less than the chance of being boarded. Short of waging actual war along the coast, which would likely waver between cost prohibitive and ineffective, significantly driving up the risk for pirates has some chance for impact.

 

And, in most places, criminal syndicates go out of their way to have as little impact on everyday citizens as possible. They're not good guys. I think of them as essentially scum, but organized crime is too concerned with profit to risk any real public outrage. These pirates are flaunting their criminal activities, which means the methods that the international community uses against them will probably be more direct and less hindered by proceedure than national law enforcement activities in individual nations.

Edited by Aristes
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Waiting for Steven Seagal to show up... ;)

 

Except they aren't really "terrorists", just plain ordinary criminals that have made a living out of ransoming and extortion. In any other part of the world, they would probably have been part of the local organised crime syndicate, less visible, just as criminal.

 

Question is, how to stop it?

 

Good question. Do you start having armed military or police force on merchant ships?

 

it would seem that the cheapest & most effective solution would be to hire crews comprised of naught but American sailors.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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All of this seems like a less-than-romantic version of Pirates of the Caribbean. I mean instead of:

 

JackSparrow300.jpg

 

And

 

1097360734453__Bloom_Pirates_Of_The_Caribean__2984.jpg

 

And

 

keiraknightleypirate.jpg

 

And

 

pirates-of-the-caribbean-dead-mans-chest-20060711044636864.jpg

 

But in reality, we have:

 

somali-pirates1.jpg

 

And

 

somali-pirates-2008-11-25-15-1-39.jpg

 

And

 

art.bainbridge.dod.jpg

 

Reality is such a dull and boring place sometimes.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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"reality is such a boring place"

 

You've clearly never seen a modern warship firing. ;)

 

 

I think it is awesome, and I thought the same thing: Only Americans would do that. Hell yeah!

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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These are criminals and terrorists, you do not negotiate with such scum. You kill them.

 

 

Can I extend this comment by asking what the **** has got into you recently?

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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"reality is such a boring place"

 

You've clearly never seen a modern warship firing. ;)

 

 

I think it is awesome, and I thought the same thing: Only Americans would do that. Hell yeah!

 

Nah, i was in the finnish marines (not to the same as THE marines, mind you). But i have fired a bazooka once. Probably not even comparable :)

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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I'm not entirely joking. In unsafe areas, having trained crews with access to firearms is a possibility. Oh, I can hear the cries already, but merchant marines are not drooling imbecils. If the arms are unlocked only in hostile waters, then the chances of mistake or misuse will likely be less than the chance of being boarded. Short of waging actual war along the coast, which would likely waver between cost prohibitive and ineffective, significantly driving up the risk for pirates has some chance for impact.

 

I actually agree, I think only the most desperate of these pirates would attack a freight ship, if the crew were able to shoot back (the crew has a pretty big advantage too, since the ship are soo huge).

 

Besides having a large fleet of warships in the area would probably cause alot more problems.

Fortune favors the bald.

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Are you kidding? It's a great way to justify the totally pointless fleets of destroyers and frigates we all maintain.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Sounds expensive to have military on ships. Just arm the crew. Rations of rum also.

 

EDIT: I'm not entirely joking. In unsafe areas, having trained crews with access to firearms is a possibility. Oh, I can hear the cries already, but merchant marines are not drooling imbecils. If the arms are unlocked only in hostile waters, then the chances of mistake or misuse will likely be less than the chance of being boarded. Short of waging actual war along the coast, which would likely waver between cost prohibitive and ineffective, significantly driving up the risk for pirates has some chance for impact.

 

And, in most places, criminal syndicates go out of their way to have as little impact on everyday citizens as possible. They're not good guys. I think of them as essentially scum, but organized crime is too concerned with profit to risk any real public outrage. These pirates are flaunting their criminal activities, which means the methods that the international community uses against them will probably be more direct and less hindered by proceedure than national law enforcement activities in individual nations.

Even better.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

 

- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

 

"I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta

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The problem isn't actually offshore, really, is it? We could tie up gazillions flooding the area with warships, surveillance etc.

 

The problem is Somalia. But we don't do nation-building any more, do we? Can somebody please find a massive oil field underneath Mogadishu?

 

Anyhow, in the spirit of the original post, I take my hat off to the sailors who stood by to repel boarders, and especially the heroic ship's captain. I hope they all make it home safely.

 

Cheers

MC

sonsofgygax.JPG

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It's an interesting situation. Arming the crew doesn't help keep the pirates off the ship. They get on by pulling out an RPG, pointing it at the hull, and intimidating their way on. Small arms aren't going to stop the pirates from being able to threaten irreparable damage to the ship once they get into RPG range. Arming the crew might help repel the boarders once they're on, though.

 

Also, I agree with MC. Although sea-based deterrence might be more cost-effective in the short-term, eliminate the land-based safe havens for the pirates, and you eliminate the piracy. Of the regional players, you'd think that Egypt would be most interested in getting something done. Piracy in the Sea of Aden leads to shipping companies going around the Cape of Good Hope instead of through the Suez Canal (which earns Egypt a healthy toll).

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Back in the day I wrote my undergraduate thesis on Counter-Insurgency. I referenced the British use of air power to police Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) in the 1920's using air power. That is to say, if the natives got restless the RAF dropped 200lb bombs on their villages. The occasional visit by flying columns of armoured cars flew the flag. Why put too many boots on the ground when you could, instead, cow the locals into submission using superior technology? Not too long afterwards the Germans planned something similar for the untermensch of the East, beyond the lands conquered for lebensraum beyond the Urals. Please note that I'm not comparing the British Empire with Nazi Germany - just the tendency for military men and politicians to occasionally use a monkey wrench to fix a circuit board.

 

So this isn't remotely new, not least because it didn't work in either case.

 

It's tempting to use technological solutions to solve thorny politicial problems - the USA could easily use naval and surveillance assets to interdict what are, after all, lightly armed gangs of criminals in small motor boats. The US carrier battle groups are awesome and have all the toys, the ultimate force projection assets in world history. Aircraft, drones, marine battle groups, special forces to raid coastal bases used by pirates, naval support to merchant vessels, installation of heavy weapons on merchant ships... we could go on (and blow the defence budget whilst we're at it).

 

Somalia is broken. You could suggest that it can't get any more broke. So why not just bomb the coastline? Why support a failed state? Yadda yadda yadda. Because before you know it you have to go back in when it's an advanced Afghanistan, and we all know what that means.

 

Somalia is a verdant, potentially prosperous and moderate Muslim eastern African state. It just has no real histroy of governance, so it needs it putting in there probably by force: You will initially need to knock some heads together there to get a result, but we could do worse than consider actually sorting the place out. Yes, a form of enlightened imperialism that was fashionable in academic circles in the early 90's during the Clinton era, before 9/11. I'm sure the Somali on the street, short of food and living under the shadow of brutal militias, people for whom Mad Max 2 is a model of stable governance, really wouldn't mind.

 

I know the US has form here from the early 90's but hopefully Obama isn't Clinton. Ignore the UN. And while your at it, sort out Darfur and let us Brits do something similar to support nascent democracy in Zimbabwe. I know, I'm a neo-neo con with a heart. What can I say?

 

Cause and effect.

 

Cheers

MC

sonsofgygax.JPG

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It's an interesting situation. Arming the crew doesn't help keep the pirates off the ship. They get on by pulling out an RPG, pointing it at the hull, and intimidating their way on. Small arms aren't going to stop the pirates from being able to threaten irreparable damage to the ship once they get into RPG range. Arming the crew might help repel the boarders once they're on, though.

 

Back to tactical mode: Three two-man USMC sniper teams with light fifties on board every merchant vessel would probably put that problem to bed.

 

Cheers

MC

sonsofgygax.JPG

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Instead of a commerce raider, make a pirate raider. Disguise a warship as a merchant ship and have it go through the waters. Pirates will eventually attack it and...kaboom!

 

Okay maybe it's just me...

 

Worked in the First World War, when 'Q' Ships where used against German submarines along the UK coastline. They were exactly as you describe - converted merchant vessels fitted with naval guns. A U-Boat tactic was to surface and threaten the merchantman with it's deckguns before torpedoing it. When they did the 'Q' Ship would open fire.

 

Cheers

MC

sonsofgygax.JPG

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.50 cal on each quarter of the ship. No pirates and fun for the crew.

 

A serious proposal would be convoying. It's what private yachts do. It's what anti-submarine warfare stipulates.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Okay maybe it's just me...

No, not just you. It might not be a complete deterrent though and it could lead to an escalation. I.e. pirates with bigger boats, bigger guns, pirates simply just starting to sink ships with improvised torpedoes (like the fire boats that the English used against the Spanish armada) and then ransom the survivors. You need to root it out at the source and destroy their base of operation on the coastline.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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