Walsingham Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 If imaginary numbers are required to make mathematics work, then surely they are not imaginary. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 you talking about the whole square root of -1 thing? when your mind works against you - fight back with substance abuse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purkake Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 So it's philosophical Friday again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samm Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 If imaginary numbers are required to make mathematics work, then surely they are not imaginary.You are more likely than not talking about complex numbers here, aren't you? Well, there are imaginary numbers, but those without a real part (i.e. the square roots of negatives) are not too fruitful... Citizen of a country with a racist, hypocritical majority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rostere Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Why shouldn't they be imaginary, when the entire concept of mathematics is imaginary. "Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Without imaginary numbers, there would be a whole lot of problems within the field of electric engineering, for example when designing FIR-filters. Unless ofcourse, they are a manifistation of a flawed model in the first place "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Without imaginary numbers, there would be a whole lot of problems within the field of electric engineering, for example when designing FIR-filters. Unless ofcourse, they are a manifistation of a flawed model in the first place Precisely. Either the models are inacccurate, or our concept of imaginary is inaccurate. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 i^2=-1 They made me take a class of advanced mathematics at Uni. I passed complex numbers before I stopped going. It was quite useless as the most advanced math I do is things like [rotations per second]*[slider value] DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Well, that leads to...oh dear, outside the realm of science. I'm off to bed. I expect someone to mention Heidegger or alike by tomorrow morning, or Kant for that matter. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 See that's the kind of maths I like. That and matrices. There's something... fiendish about matrix calculations. Like a shaggy dog story involving actresses. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Why shouldn't they be imaginary, when the entire concept of mathematics is imaginary. Exactly. It's all an abstraction used as an aid in understanding the outside world. Why should it trouble us if some of the constructs are more abstract than others? Another example: A googolplex (i.e., 10^(10^100) fits right in with the "real" counting numbers. But it is also a higher number than there likely are atoms in the observable the universe. Doesn't that make it imaginary, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) I am reminded of Achilles and the tortoise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_para...nd_the_tortoise Not having taken any math past high school I don't understand why one would chose to focus on Achilles reaching a number of imaginary and exponentially shorter gaps between himself and the tortoise in the first place. That was always the paradox to me. Edited March 21, 2009 by Gorgon Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I want teh kotor 3 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I am reminded of Achilles and the tortoise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_para...nd_the_tortoise Not having taken any math past high school I don't understand why one would chose to focus on Achilles reaching a number of imaginary and exponentially shorter gaps between himself and the tortoise in the first place. That was always the paradox to me. I think the paradox is why the idiot can't just go in whole seconds. Achilles wins that way. Easily. Anyway, back to i. I don't think its imaginary as its commonly used in English, i.e "non-existant". I think "unusual" would be a better term, but that's just me. In 7th grade, I teach the students how Chuck Norris took down the Roman Empire, so it is good that you are starting early on this curriculum. R.I.P. KOTOR 2003-2008 KILLED BY THOSE GREEDY MONEY-HOARDING ************* AND THEIR *****-*** MMOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I want teh kotor 3 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I am reminded of Achilles and the tortoise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_para...nd_the_tortoise Not having taken any math past high school I don't understand why one would chose to focus on Achilles reaching a number of imaginary and exponentially shorter gaps between himself and the tortoise in the first place. That was always the paradox to me. I think the paradox is why the idiot can't just go in whole seconds. Achilles wins that way. Easily. Anyway, back to i. I don't think its imaginary as its commonly used in English, i.e "non-existant". I think "unusual" would be a better term, but that's just me. In 7th grade, I teach the students how Chuck Norris took down the Roman Empire, so it is good that you are starting early on this curriculum. R.I.P. KOTOR 2003-2008 KILLED BY THOSE GREEDY MONEY-HOARDING ************* AND THEIR *****-*** MMOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Why shouldn't they be imaginary, when the entire concept of mathematics is imaginary. Exactly. It's all an abstraction used as an aid in understanding the outside world. Why should it trouble us if some of the constructs are more abstract than others? Another example: A googolplex (i.e., 10^(10^100) fits right in with the "real" counting numbers. But it is also a higher number than there likely are atoms in the observable the universe. Doesn't that make it imaginary, too? This is an example of one of my "Getting Lost in a Wiki Wonder Land" type situations where I was really high, then wikied googol, googolplex, etc. Blew my mind to think that it (googolplex) represents a number higher than the amount of atoms in the universe. I wondered how that can be possible, then, seeing as that was too mindboggling, wikied all the numbers used in modern western mathematics (0-9) and read about how they all operate and whatnot, which led me to theorize that how each number behaves individually somehow was connected to the innerworkings of the fabric of space time. Then I ate some nachos and went to sleep. "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 If you had only stopped to write a formula, alas, the mathematical theory of everything is lost to the ages. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pidesco Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Discussing the superficial semantics of mathematics is really missing the point. It's discussing an arbitrary convention. It's discussing the signifier, while thinking you're discussing the signified. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) I always took imaginary to mean the numbers which could not be represented by objects as opposed to non-existant. Edited March 21, 2009 by Amentep I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samm Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Amentep: Maybe not as objects, but, for example, capacitors (iirc) do have "imaginary" currents, thus are not dissipating power. Discussing the superficial semantics of mathematics is really missing the point. It's discussing an arbitrary convention. It's discussing the signifier, while thinking you're discussing the signified.Trying to discuss a non-abstract signified in mathematical theories is impossible anyway - it's just formulas and numbers... So finding examples is useful. Too bad my last experience with electro-engineering is years past, so I couldn't come up with any real examples :/ Citizen of a country with a racist, hypocritical majority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 If you had only stopped to write a formula, alas, the mathematical theory of everything is lost to the ages. Just like my career as a stand up comic "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I always took imaginary to mean the numbers which could not be represented by objects as opposed to non-existant. In that event, zero is the original imaginary number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samm Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 In that event, zero is the original imaginary number.it's as imaginary as it's real... Citizen of a country with a racist, hypocritical majority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Discussing the superficial semantics of mathematics is really missing the point. It's discussing an arbitrary convention. It's discussing the signifier, while thinking you're discussing the signified. But all human thought occurs as a representational abstraction anyway. (well, according to most psychologists) "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) Here's a good argument about what makes infinity a real 'infinity', and uncountable, by using laymans terms. Edited March 21, 2009 by Meshugger "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samm Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 But all human thought occurs as a representational abstraction anyway. (well, according to most psychologists)Define "thought" Citizen of a country with a racist, hypocritical majority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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