I really don't understand the ESRB

[Darth Jebus]

I happen to work for Sony Pictures (not SOE, so don't kill me) and we are constantly in a battle with the MPAA over the ratings of our movies. They are so subjective and their rules are so convoluted and confusing and always seem to be changing.

 

But then I was talking to a buddy who does work for SOE. And he said if I think dealing with the MPAA is bad, try dealing with the ESRB. This lead us to a conversation about Oblivion, which is rated M. I CANNOT for the life of me understand why that game is rated M, and I've played it several times with a variety of classes. Heck, I'm still playing it today.

 

There is no gore, no nudity, or even suggestive themes that I saw. You can't even have a romance with anyone. At least , not in vanilla Oblivion.

 

But it all, apparently comes down to mods on the PC version. Where there used to be a mod that allowed players to play naked female characters, or some crap like that. Which is why it got an M rating. Also, up in some of the towers where you have to go to collect the sigil stone to close Oblivion gates, there are a couple corpses hanging and in some cases are on fire.

 

BUT IT'S NOT GRAPHIC. It's no worse than WoW's Deadwind Pass between Duskwood and Swamp of Sorrows, where you can see corpses hanging from trees. And there's all kinds of suggestive themes in WoW. (Female Night Elf dance, female Draenei jokes).

 

I just don't see how a player created mod that is not even accessible on the 360 version and that even most PC users can't access warrants an M rating. Certain games I can see why it gets an adult rating. If the gore and/or nudity and language is explicit, that's a no brainer.

 

But games like Oblivion and Mass Effect just don't seem to warrant it. The only thing in ME that I can think of is the possible lesbian love scene between a female Sheperd and Liara. Even then, all you see is Liara's butt, and then it cuts away.

 

I don't know. Navigating through the ESRB sounds like it's a freaking mine field.

[Gfted1]

Wait, how can a mod that existed after the game was released have forced an M rating?

[Whipporwill]

Wait, how can a mod that existed after the game was released have forced an M rating?

 

The mod was made from a nude skin that shipped with the base game.

[Gfted1]

I see, kinda like "hot coffee".

[Kaftan Barlast]

The ESRB are f*cking nuts. The videogame industry wanted some way to appease the Hillary Clintons out there so they created the ESRB, which mutated into a horrible monster that has the entire gaming industrys balls in a vice. The comics industry managed to do the same thing with the CCA, which was a giant oppressive choker that prevented comics becoming a serious artistic medium for decades. Until marvel simply said "we created you guys, and we can destroy you" and simply stopped dealing with the CCA, taking all the other publishers with them. That killed the CCA.

 

 

EA could kill ESRB and its euro variant PEGI in a second if they wanted to, and its a complete mystery why they havent.

[Tigranes]

Yep, it would be interesting to do a comparative study of CCA / Comics in the 50s - 70s, and the ESRB today. I doubt it's as easy as all that to just 'kill' ESRB off at this point in time, though.

[Whipporwill]

EA doesn't care whether games become a "serious artistic medium" or not.

[Slowtrain]

The US is nutso though when it comes to nudity.

[Rosbjerg]

I think it because of the fact that you can murder random people, undress them and then pull their death bodies around.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Yep, it would be interesting to do a comparative study of CCA / Comics in the 50s - 70s, and the ESRB today.

 

I'm actually writing a paper about that, but, yeah, there are a lot of parallels.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Oblivion has tons of blood, blood squirting on melee hits, decayed zombies, flayed and/or burning human bodies, body parts lying around, and depictions of torture in Dark Brothehood quests. Originally it was rated T, but the nudity issue forced them to take another look. Mass Effect has two explicit impalings, strippers which are nude for all practical purposes and which do a special performance, and the sex scene with partial nudity.

[Calax]

Yep, it would be interesting to do a comparative study of CCA / Comics in the 50s - 70s, and the ESRB today. I doubt it's as easy as all that to just 'kill' ESRB off at this point in time, though.

Now that I think about it it seems like the comic book industry and the Video games industry are going to be running on very similar tacts. By this I mean that both are covered by a governing agency that is over protective, and eventually a game will try to do something thats out of bounds (according to the ESRB) but is done in such a manner that the industry as a whole will toss the ESRB into a trash can. The biggest hurdle that is in the way about Content right now is that the ESRB has laws currently based around its ratings where as the CCA doesn't (for example the "you can't sell M rated games to minors" laws).

[Darth Jebus]

Oblivion has tons of blood, blood squirting on melee hits, decayed zombies, flayed and/or burning human bodies, body parts lying around, and depictions of torture in Dark Brothehood quests. Originally it was rated T, but the nudity issue forced them to take another look. Mass Effect has two explicit impalings, strippers which are nude for all practical purposes and which do a special performance, and the sex scene with partial nudity.

 

I didn't do any of the Dark Brotherhood quests, which probably explains why I didn't see all the depictions of torture you talk about. The game really wasn't all that bloody to me.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The ESRB are f*cking nuts. The videogame industry wanted some way to appease the Hillary Clintons out there so they created the ESRB, which mutated into a horrible monster that has the entire gaming industrys balls in a vice.

lol no not really.

 

We have no problem making M-rated games. The only concern is usually nudity, which is a classic American issue. The problems with Oblivion had to do with a) content included in the shipped game that could easily be unlocked (nude textures) and b) content that was stated by BethSoft but glossed over/missed by the ESRB itself (Lucien Lachance's mutilated body, infanticide/child skeletons in the same plotline, etc.).

 

By comparison, people made nude textures for NWN2 almost immediately, but there were no nude textures in the shipped game. In fact, if you turn off the succubus' clothing, her breasts are completely removed.

[Tigranes]

Now that I think about it it seems like the comic book industry and the Video games industry are going to be running on very similar tacts. By this I mean that both are covered by a governing agency that is over protective, and eventually a game will try to do something thats out of bounds (according to the ESRB) but is done in such a manner that the industry as a whole will toss the ESRB into a trash can. The biggest hurdle that is in the way about Content right now is that the ESRB has laws currently based around its ratings where as the CCA doesn't (for example the "you can't sell M rated games to minors" laws).

 

I read an academic paper on the CCA / Comics in the 40s to 80s a few months ago, and - caveat, I know little else about that industry - I think it is simply symptomatic of the relationships and lines of force drawn between legal-juridical disciplines and media in contemporary society. It's the same superimposition of artificial boundaries that, history tells us, will eventually not work very well.

 

That said, I dont' think ESRB and equivalent bodies do *too* bad a job at the moment. Sure theres the nudity and some other hyper-PC stuff, but as Josh says that's not something the ESRB can do much about, they have to obey the sensibilities of the nations they exist for.

[Oerwinde]

I think everyone should just follow the comics publisher's examples and just self rate their crap. Keep the ESRB rating scale, but rate your own crap.

 

Anyone see This Film is Not Yet Rated? Explores the MPAA's rating system and how there are no real rules to rating, and the appeal system is terrible as you can't cite precedent, leading to ratings that just don't make sense. I can't see the ESRB being much different.

[Niten_Ryu]

Main problem in this whole situation is the fact that there's 2 different ratings for about same age group - Mature and Adults Only. Those two should be merged but it's not likely to happen in US where it's more ok to show graphic violence then nudity.

 

Maybe situation with AO games become bit better if some big digital distributer begin to support 'em. This would benefit most of the RPGs (The Witcher almost got it right) and sandbox games like The sims or GTA series.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Has anyone played God of War? Did it get an AO rating? I don't even understand what people keep complaining about.

[Niten_Ryu]

Has anyone played God of War? Did it get an AO rating? I don't even understand what people keep complaining about.

 

God of War, GTA San Andreas, Manhunt and even Oblivion were tuned down to M rating because major retailers (like Wal-Mart ect ect) don't allow AO games to be sold in their stores. Console manufacturers are very much against AO game and don't allow 'em to be released untill AO content is cut out of game complitely. Thus only EU release or digital distribution of PC game are only real alternatives if some developers want to do AO rated game.

[Calax]

Has anyone played God of War? Did it get an AO rating? I don't even understand what people keep complaining about.

God of War is the only game I've ever known to actually have shots of the human breasts... (well AOC had that but it died faster than you can say smarf!). In all honestly I admit that had I been on the ESRB I'd probably have either slated it for AO or rebuilt the M and AO boundary line.

[Purkake]

Has anyone played God of War? Did it get an AO rating? I don't even understand what people keep complaining about.

God of War is the only game I've ever known to actually have shots of the human breasts... (well AOC had that but it died faster than you can say smarf!). In all honestly I admit that had I been on the ESRB I'd probably have either slated it for AO or rebuilt the M and AO boundary line.

 

I think that they should change the AO rating to X-rated like with movies. The new X-rated rating should be reserved to games that are clearly erotic in their nature(so basically porn games). Mature would remain and include everything that does not feature prominent intercourse.

 

Of course that won't probably happen anytime soon. The gaming generation needs to grow older and shatter the prejudice against games. Also companies need to push the boundaries and make GOOD mature games to show what the medium is capable of.

[Slowtrain]

Movie standards for violence and nudity are a lot lower (higher?) than they used to be though. Boobs even show up in PG13 movies. But not in games, for whatever reason.

[Morgoth]

Boobies showed up in Age of Conan though, and that game still managed to get a "M" for some reason in NA.

[Purkake]

Movie standards for violence and nudity are a lot lower (higher?) than they used to be though. Boobs even show up in PG13 movies. But not in games, for whatever reason.

 

It's probably just the case of a younger medium. I think the "interactivity" argument is stupid.

 

Boobies showed up in Age of Conan though, and that game still managed to get a "M" for some reason in NA.

 

ESRB: Game experience may change during online play.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Boobies showed up in Age of Conan though, and that game still managed to get a "M" for some reason in NA.

The reason is that's always M rated, people spread myths about the AO rating. It has to be a lot more explicit to get an AO.